Visible Buffs & Debuffs

Rodario

I suggest buffs and debuffs, as well as their remaining duration, be visible at all times in the form of icons somewhere along the screen border (or under health bars for debuffs).

Some players will say this is a L2P issue, as experienced players should be able to tell what debuffs their characters are suffering from and that we should also know teammates' group buffs and how long those will last.

Others will say this would make their UI too cluttered, as they enjoy the level of immersion the current UI provides.

For these reasons I feel it should be an option that can be checked on or off.

I'm sure there's an add-on out there that accomplishes just this, but I feel this is one of many UI features that should be standard.

EDIT: There are some addons, but they aren't completely functional/reliable.

Thanks for reading, discuss.

xMovingTarget

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info396-Srendarr-AuraBuffDebuffTracker.html

There you go

Rodario

xMovingTarget wrote: »

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info396-Srendarr-AuraBuffDebuffTracker.html

There you go

Maybe I should have been more clear. Not only do I feel this should be a standard feature, I also highly dislike using addons in this game. Thank you for the link though.

Tankqull

it only displays debuffs/buffs applicated by yourself wich is easily tracked on your own as pushing your own buttons is not that difficult to be realized...

but thanx to the api restrictions at the end of beta there are no enemy debuffs/shortbuffs to be tracked. and the graphic cues are often not displayed in the craptastic system called a HUD in this game.

xMovingTarget

I know what you are talking about Rodario. i rather would have that as a standard UI function. But as tankqullb stated, there is now way atm. Self Longbuffs and "assumed" Debuffs on an enemy works. But nothing as an exact debuff tracker.

In Beta you had all the the debuffs/buffs shown correctly, But zeni mocked up the API for whatever reason right before release.

GwaynLoki

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

but thanx to the api restrictions at the end of beta there are no enemy debuffs/shortbuffs to be tracked. and the graphic cues are often not displayed in the craptastic system called a HUD in this game.

Which is absolute nonsense. I have been using Cleanse in PvP repeatedly because the visual indication - burning char - didn't go away. There's also the problem of actually noticing these visual clues in animation-heavy environments.
Giving hints about buffs/debuffs is imo a necessary thing for making decisions in PvP and PvE.

Rodario

GwaynLoki wrote: »

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

but thanx to the api restrictions at the end of beta there are no enemy debuffs/shortbuffs to be tracked. and the graphic cues are often not displayed in the craptastic system called a HUD in this game.

Which is absolute nonsense. I have been using Cleanse in PvP repeatedly because the visual indication - burning char - didn't go away. There's also the problem of actually noticing these visual clues in animation-heavy environments.
Giving hints about buffs/debuffs is imo a necessary thing for making decisions in PvP and PvE.

I know what you mean. Tanking can sometimes be a pain when there's so many effects going on, you lose track of what the boss is doing.

AlexDougherty

I only use health/magicka boosting food, which increases the health/magicka bar. Admittedly it has run out at inconvenient times, but at these times I'm too busy swearing to tell myself L2P.

Elloa

There is addons for that.
EDIT: Okay there is no addons for that. Whatever, I stand my point.

At the moment it will be implemented by default in the game, players that want to do more "serious" stuff will be forced into getting this option, cause it's obviously more easy to track buffs instead of playing the game as it was firstly intended, with minimum UI, while paying attention to the "visual effect" of your buff /debuff.

I strongly prefer to see this and every other UI related features being not implemented in the game, and optional via addons for the players that really want them.

I want ESO to stay a Elder Scrolls game!

pppontus

There are addons but they don't work properly, or you can't trust them at least. They will basically track if you press the key for your taunt or whatever, but sometimes it won't show and sometimes the target might have walked out of range or something so the attack didn't hit.. and the timer is there but it's not taunted.

Exhibit A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t1lFLcTgio#t=458

EDIT: I don't know what happened but since it embedded the time to start link doesn't work.. anyway at 7:58 you'll see what I'm talking about.

When I refresh pierce armor the counter doesn't show up, so I have no idea and have to try and count in my head until I can refresh again and then after a few refreshes it comes back. Also look at the Serpent, let me know if there's a single point in that video where you can see any visible indication that the target is taunted.. with a million particle effects going on it's completely impossible.

The point that it's supposed to be immersive and that you need to pay attention to those points is just not valid. Also for bosses like Serpent/Mantikora, even if you saw that "indication" - as soon as it runs out they will turn and wreck the entire raid in a second, so having it ever run out is not an option, and taunting too often will cause the same thing.. i.e. it's just invalid. The endgame content (like SO) is already created based on being forced to use addons to complete it, AND that is very wrong.

The other option of course is to sit there for 11 minutes counting. 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 7..

A game that bases itself on timers, and doesn't include timers.. it just doesn't work.

I appreciate some people might not want it so just leave it completely off by default, I don't care. It's not like you can tank SO without the addons for this anyway (unless you fancy developing a mental disorder from counting 1-10 in your head for 1,5 hours straight every night). All we're really asking for is something to do what the addons does, but do it reliably.

spoqster

I too am a big fan of a minimalist UI but some of the functionalities the addons provide are simply required to play the game in a sensible way.

But this is not a black or white issue. The central challenge in product design is to provide maximum functionality with minimum clutter, or, as Einstein put it, "make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler".

You don't achieve good product design simply by leaving things out. IMHO it's the challenge for the designers to include buffs while keeping the UI minimalist. It's not enough to either add them or leave them out alltogether, it's about adding them in a way that it does not clutter the UI - just like they managed to do with the food buffs. That is the challenge I hope they will overcome eventually.

As to addons in general, I have reached a point where there are a few addons I feel like I absolutely need. Srendarr is one of them, and so is AwesomeGuildStore. Without it trading would be unbearably painful. I would love to play ESO on a console some day and I will only enjoy that if they integrate the functionality of some addons into the game. Thus I am emotionally invested in this issue.

pppontus

spoqster wrote: »

I too am a big fan of a minimalist UI but some of the functionalities the addons provide are simply required to play the game in a sensible way.

But this is not a black or white issue. The central challenge in product design is to provide maximum functionality with minimum clutter, or, as Einstein put it, "make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler".

You don't achieve good product design simply by leaving things out. IMHO it's the challenge for the designers to include buffs while keeping the UI minimalist. It's not enough to either add them or leave them out alltogether, it's about adding them in a way that it does not clutter the UI - just like they managed to do with the food buffs. That is the challenge I hope they will overcome eventually.

As to addons in general, I have reached a point where there are a few addons I feel like I absolutely need. Srendarr is one of them, and so is AwesomeGuildStore. Without it trading would be unbearably painful. I would love to play ESO on a console some day and I will only enjoy that if they integrate the functionality of some addons into the game. Thus I am emotionally invested in this issue.

I agree. I will continue playing ESO on PC but I am considering grabbing a copy for X1 as well, for more relaxed sofa-play moments.. but without addons? If they don't implement a buff/debuff tracker for console, they will for sure not sell a copy to me at least.

It took me until like level 15 back in April before I realised I just couldn't play with the stock UI, it was like I was wandering around blind without a clue what my attacks/buffs/skills actually did. OK, bleed for x for x seconds.. so using twin slashes again doesn't make sense until after it is "done", how do I know when that is?

Then I found FTC and later on Srendarr. If these did not exist my first month sub would have been my only month sub, I'd not be raiding mostly every night and wouldn't have spent my precious free time on leveling 5 characters. ^^

I love the game, I love the new direction of (actually) difficult content like VDSA and SO but it is just no manageable without addons - and I believe that ZOS understands this already, so why they won't make a statement.. I don't get it.

e.chiesa73b16_ESO

As an healer who is sometime on purge duty, I +1 these suggestions.

1000 times +1

Not having a clear clue of what is going on is just madness.

Vikestart

Elloa wrote: »

I strongly prefer to see this and every other UI related features being not implemented in the game, and optional via addons for the players that really want them.

I want ESO to stay a Elder Scrolls game!

They can be implemented and be made optional through the Interface Settings.

Giving people more (officially supported) interface settings is always good!

spoqster

One way to solve the problem would be to have different UI modes, like "casual" and "pro". Casual (the status quo) could be the default and you could turn on the pro mode when you enter serious battles.

This way the grand majority of players would still get the same Elder Scrolls experience while questing, and power users could really obsess and play more professionally.

If they wanted to make it really nice, they could introduce a setting that defaults to casual while questing and switches to pro automatically when entering veteran dungeons and trials. That way even serious players would get the best of both worlds without even having to lift a finger (more than once that is).

Emencie

Elloa wrote: »

There is addons for that.
EDIT: Okay there is no addons for that. Whatever, I stand my point.

At the moment it will be implemented by default in the game, players that want to do more "serious" stuff will be forced into getting this option, cause it's obviously more easy to track buffs instead of playing the game as it was firstly intended, with minimum UI, while paying attention to the "visual effect" of your buff /debuff.

I strongly prefer to see this and every other UI related features being not implemented in the game, and optional via addons for the players that really want them.

I want ESO to stay a Elder Scrolls game!

The problem with the way they decided to go with both the UI and the whole not giving the players all information is they have forced the game to never be truly difficult.

With base UI

• Healers cannot specifically heal or remove debuffs from a key player at a key moment.
• Tanks cannot maximize uptime on offensive debuffs or coordinate self buffs with their party.
• DPS cannot maximize dot damage, and often will steal valuable heals meant for someone else.

The result is a PvE experience that for many feels far too easy and simplistic, and of course when ZoS Makes tougher content or players find themselves fighting against another player addons become so important that it feels mandatory to go to a third party site to get them.

People get to vet 14 without knowing how to skill/block cancel, without understanding the importance of food, and without understanding of how half their skills work because the game is quite simplistic and easy. But it has to be! I've heard people complain that they don't even understand the blocking/dodge/interrupt system because the effects all look the same to them so they don't know which to do and when. And while there is a UI option to turn on a cue for this, It isn't normally on. So players are going through to V14 without dodging anything just fine! (things like this, are the reason for most PvP complaints imho)

This was a huge complaint especially for healers. But how can ZoS make (PvE) blocking or dodging or healing or taking or anything more difficult if they don't give players the tools to know what is going on?

I understand what you mean by you want it to stay an elderscrolls game, but the first thing I think of when I read that is how mind numbingly easy all those games are out of the box for anyone that understands how to build a character.

kongkim

Rodario wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info396-Srendarr-AuraBuffDebuffTracker.html

There you go

Maybe I should have been more clear. Not only do I feel this should be a standard feature, I also highly dislike using addons in this game. Thank you for the link though.

Way dislike using add-ons when it can give you what you want?

AlnilamE

Emencie wrote: »

With base UI

• Healers cannot specifically heal or remove debuffs from a key player at a key moment.
• Tanks cannot maximize uptime on offensive debuffs or coordinate self buffs with their party.
• DPS cannot maximize dot damage, and often will steal valuable heals meant for someone else.

It is not clear to me how the base UI does any of those things, unless you are playing in first person. Would you mind elaborating?

Note: I use some UI addons, but I don't have any that diplay combat info.

Armitas

Agree. With a game that makes enemies immune if you over taunt there needs to be a real in game system that tracks buffs. The addon trackers do not actually track the skill, they track the skill used and apply it to the current target. It can't access the monster to tell if it has the buff/debuff. You can see this by animation canceling siphon spirit. FTC will show that the debuff is applied, however the monster does not actually have siphon on it because you canceled it and FTC doesn't know that.

kongkim

AlnilamE wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

With base UI

• Healers cannot specifically heal or remove debuffs from a key player at a key moment.
• Tanks cannot maximize uptime on offensive debuffs or coordinate self buffs with their party.
• DPS cannot maximize dot damage, and often will steal valuable heals meant for someone else.

It is not clear to me how the base UI does any of those things, unless you are playing in first person. Would you mind elaborating?

Note: I use some UI addons, but I don't have any that diplay combat info.

Many people do play first person in ESO

AlnilamE

kongkim wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

With base UI

• Healers cannot specifically heal or remove debuffs from a key player at a key moment.
• Tanks cannot maximize uptime on offensive debuffs or coordinate self buffs with their party.
• DPS cannot maximize dot damage, and often will steal valuable heals meant for someone else.

It is not clear to me how the base UI does any of those things, unless you are playing in first person. Would you mind elaborating?

Note: I use some UI addons, but I don't have any that diplay combat info.

Many people do play first person in ESO

I used to as well, until I hit the early Vet ranks. Then I switched, spent two days feeling dizzy as I ran around, got used to it and am now very happy as a melee DPS to be able to see behind my back.

AlexDougherty

AlnilamE wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

With base UI

• Healers cannot specifically heal or remove debuffs from a key player at a key moment.
• Tanks cannot maximize uptime on offensive debuffs or coordinate self buffs with their party.
• DPS cannot maximize dot damage, and often will steal valuable heals meant for someone else.

It is not clear to me how the base UI does any of those things, unless you are playing in first person. Would you mind elaborating?

Note: I use some UI addons, but I don't have any that diplay combat info.

Many people do play first person in ESO

I used to as well, until I hit the early Vet ranks. Then I switched, spent two days feeling dizzy as I ran around, got used to it and am now very happy as a melee DPS to be able to see behind my back.

Also handy pre-vet in fighting mobs solo, it allows you to see when an attacker has approached from the back.

I know plenty of people like the immersion of first person, but third person is handier for fighting.

Emencie

AlnilamE wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

With base UI

• Healers cannot specifically heal or remove debuffs from a key player at a key moment.
• Tanks cannot maximize uptime on offensive debuffs or coordinate self buffs with their party.
• DPS cannot maximize dot damage, and often will steal valuable heals meant for someone else.

It is not clear to me how the base UI does any of those things, unless you are playing in first person. Would you mind elaborating?

Note: I use some UI addons, but I don't have any that diplay combat info.

The main thing there is the base UI does not show debuffs on enemies. Sure you can count to 14 in your head and refresh your 1 debuff on the boss, but when you have 4+ debuff skills each one with a different duration any maximizing of uptime is impossible for most people without the UI displaying that information.

This hits DPS because a lot of DPS skills have a DOT component, and often that DOT component deals more damage than the initial application. However DOT builds are not terribly common because we cannot track our DOTs.

For healing this is about having a lack of targetable heals, Heals and shields either hit everyone, or (somewhat) random. This means that if someone gets in trouble, the healer cannot specifically save them, or even decide if one person needs more healing than another. Additionally healers cannot see when their allies are suffering from debuffs to purge.

So for an example.

If have a two boss engagement where one boss deals light damage, but has a killer debuff, while the other deals heavy AOE damage. In other MMOs the fight mechanics may look like...

• Tank, tanks AOE boss away from the group, but must keep armor piercing debuff on second boss.
• First DPS tanks light damage boss, until the boss debuff stacks on themselves are too high.
• Second DPS then picks up the light damage boss and switches off and on with the first DPS.
• Healer clears debuffs on the two DPS as fast as possible while keeping main heals focused on the tank. but emergency heals saved for the two DPS.
• Both bosses have to go down within seconds of one another so all DPS have to alternate damage and be mindful of dots and debuffs on both targets.

This isn't even a difficult encounter in other games, this is a fairly standard type boss mechanic, and while ESO doesn't need to be a clone of other games. ZoS cannot make more complex strategies necessary with boss mechanics because a simple function of healers having to prioritize healing targets doesn't even exist in the game.

AlnilamE

I am confused, as my main is a DW nightblade and I swear there is a visual cue for enemy bleed, there's certainly a visual cue when they are poisoned and their health bar shows cracks when their armor is affected. And the siphoning DoTs make them glow red a bit. And you can tell when an enemy is taunted.

So what am I missing?

pppontus

AlnilamE wrote: »

I am confused, as my main is a DW nightblade and I swear there is a visual cue for enemy bleed, there's certainly a visual cue when they are poisoned and their health bar shows cracks when their armor is affected. And the siphoning DoTs make them glow red a bit. And you can tell when an enemy is taunted.

So what am I missing?

Take a look at the video I posted and tell me how many clues you can see over that complete chaos which is endgame raiding.

I'm especially interested in how I should see the enemy is taunted?

Rezzy64

So I have a particular bone to pick with "FTC" and "Srendarr."
I have a really hard time keeping track of what my character should be trying to do as well due to not having proper Buff/Debuff notifications.

My issue with "Srendarr", it's completely inaccurate to a point of being useless to me. I managed to track it down out of desperation and set it up as soon as I could, but I immediately found it useless. I experimented with it, played around with a few of the settings, but no matter whether I used it inside or outside of combat, it would never keep track of my buffs based on short timers. It was able to keep track of my various permanent buffs such as my "Server Buffs" and various toggle skills such as "Siphon Attacks" and "Unstable Clannfear" but it would not keep track of any of the buffs I applied such as "Incapacitate" or "Boundless Storm". It also never kept track of any of my "Pierce Armor" debuffs. I went through those settings so many times to try and find anything that would possibly turn it on or off, but I never found a single option that was actually able to tell me whether or not my proper short term buffs and debuffs were working or not.

As for "FTC", it's awesome that they keep track of my buffs pretty much in the exact way that I want, but it's not very friendly towards toggling what I need on and off and it is also not very good at working with other addon's. I have a HUD that I prefer to use called "Wykkyd's HUD" and it's much easier to read, customize, and manage, but the "FTC" does not work alongside any of the other HUD's so they can't be used together and although the "FTC" keeps track of more important things, I have a hard time keeping track of it because it is built so small and their font's are just near impossible to read or understand unless my face is pressed up against my screen. I tried to find an option in the settings to either enlarge all the parts I needed to see or to toggle off the options that I didn't care about in order to use other addon's that would be better suited towards the job, but the FTC doesn't want to play nice with most of my other addon's or my personal style.

So I'm forced to fly blind in the buff/debuff department. At first it wasn't such a huge deal since my main character for Dungeons and Pledges was DPS, so most of the buffs I used were mainly meant for me and I'm generally able to see when they turn off (I have to squint to see those little floating black lines around my character to make sure "Incapacitate" is still active.) or I use an obvious debuff that's easy to track such as "Reapers Mark", plus it takes forever for that debuff to turn off.
However now that I started building my first Tank, tracking buffs and debuffs is becoming a huge issue that I'm concerned about. As what has been already said, I need to track my taunts which is of the utmost importance, and lately I have nothing that can do that so a lot of it is just guess work and watching that very tiny red icon that floats above an enemy's head after taunt activation. I will agree that tiny little red marker does get lost within the chaos very easily.

Buff and Debuff tracking is an issue that really does need to be looked into better. I would argue that it probably is ZOS's responsibility to develop a proper UI for tracking such things, but I can just as easily settle for an outside programmer who agrees with our plight to make an addon for such purposes.

pppontus

Rezzy64 wrote: »

So I have a particular bone to pick with "FTC" and "Srendarr."
I have a really hard time keeping track of what my character should be trying to do as well due to not having proper Buff/Debuff notifications.

My issue with "Srendarr", it's completely inaccurate to a point of being useless to me. I managed to track it down out of desperation and set it up as soon as I could, but I immediately found it useless. I experimented with it, played around with a few of the settings, but no matter whether I used it inside or outside of combat, it would never keep track of my buffs based on short timers. It was able to keep track of my various permanent buffs such as my "Server Buffs" and various toggle skills such as "Siphon Attacks" and "Unstable Clannfear" but it would not keep track of any of the buffs I applied such as "Incapacitate" or "Boundless Storm". It also never kept track of any of my "Pierce Armor" debuffs. I went through those settings so many times to try and find anything that would possibly turn it on or off, but I never found a single option that was actually able to tell me whether or not my proper short term buffs and debuffs were working or not.

As for "FTC", it's awesome that they keep track of my buffs pretty much in the exact way that I want, but it's not very friendly towards toggling what I need on and off and it is also not very good at working with other addon's. I have a HUD that I prefer to use called "Wykkyd's HUD" and it's much easier to read, customize, and manage, but the "FTC" does not work alongside any of the other HUD's so they can't be used together and although the "FTC" keeps track of more important things, I have a hard time keeping track of it because it is built so small and their font's are just near impossible to read or understand unless my face is pressed up against my screen. I tried to find an option in the settings to either enlarge all the parts I needed to see or to toggle off the options that I didn't care about in order to use other addon's that would be better suited towards the job, but the FTC doesn't want to play nice with most of my other addon's or my personal style.

So I'm forced to fly blind in the buff/debuff department. At first it wasn't such a huge deal since my main character for Dungeons and Pledges was DPS, so most of the buffs I used were mainly meant for me and I'm generally able to see when they turn off (I have to squint to see those little floating black lines around my character to make sure "Incapacitate" is still active.) or I use an obvious debuff that's easy to track such as "Reapers Mark", plus it takes forever for that debuff to turn off.
However now that I started building my first Tank, tracking buffs and debuffs is becoming a huge issue that I'm concerned about. As what has been already said, I need to track my taunts which is of the utmost importance, and lately I have nothing that can do that so a lot of it is just guess work and watching that very tiny red icon that floats above an enemy's head after taunt activation. I will agree that tiny little red marker does get lost within the chaos very easily.

Buff and Debuff tracking is an issue that really does need to be looked into better. I would argue that it probably is ZOS's responsibility to develop a proper UI for tracking such things, but I can just as easily settle for an outside programmer who agrees with our plight to make an addon for such purposes.

Problem is as already stated the lack of information in the API, with there being absolutely no way to truly track whether buffs are or aren't applied. Meaning the information is guesswork based on when you click the button. I've learned to live with it, kind of, it sucks soooo much but at least it can work if you always play with the understanding it's a broken system and pay close attention to if it bugs and work around it.

To be honest I'm pretty good at these workarounds by now, but still it is not uncommon to have casualties on the Mantikora / Serpent due to a tank having a pierce armor timer that wasn't applied correctly and leading to aggro loss.

The annoying part is simply that it happens, and it only happens because essential information is not available to the players.