Dev presence on forums

rophez_ESO

I don't see how so many MMO companies can make the mistake of not being extremely active and present on their own forums. ZOS is just as guilty. Devs RARELY post, and instead we get community reps who reply sporadically to posts, but usually just to pass information along. Don't get me wrong, Jessica and Gina are awesome, but I can only imagine they have their hands tied pretty tightly when it comes to talking about systems and progress, etc.

The lack of communication is really bad in this game. It's like they threw a bunch of cool ideas out at Quakecon and then decided that was good enough. They clearly don't realize how high maintenance MMO players are. I need weekly updates on that stuff, at least.

You can say I'm whining and making a fuss over nothing, but I'm just passing along what would help to keep me happy and subscribing. Take it for what it's worth.

More dev presence, and more status updates on systems.

Here's a sample:

Hey guys! It's Billy the dev here. Wanted to give you an update on how Spellcrafting is coming along. We've really nailed down a lot of the nuts and bolts, but there are a few balancing issues we're tweaking. I'm really hoping we can get this out to you by update 6. Here are a couple screenshots of some of the more interesting spell effects you can craft. <insert screenshots>

I'd be so happy to see a post or two like this on a weekly basis.

nerevarine1138

rophez_ESO wrote: »

I don't see how so many MMO companies can make the mistake of not being extremely active and present on their own forums. ZOS is just as guilty. Devs RARELY post, and instead we get community reps who reply sporadically to posts, but usually just to pass information along. Don't get me wrong, Jessica and Gina are awesome, but I can only imagine they have their hands tied pretty tightly when it comes to talking about systems and progress, etc.

The lack of communication is really bad in this game. It's like they threw a bunch of cool ideas out at Quakecon and then decided that was good enough. They clearly don't realize how high maintenance MMO players are. I need weekly updates on that stuff, at least.

You can say I'm whining and making a fuss over nothing, but I'm just passing along what would help to keep me happy and subscribing. Take it for what it's worth.

More dev presence, and more status updates on systems.

Here's a sample:

Hey guys! It's Billy the dev here. Wanted to give you an update on how Spellcrafting is coming along. We've really nailed down a lot of the nuts and bolts, but there are a few balancing issues we're tweaking. I'm really hoping we can get this out to you by update 6. Here are a couple screenshots of some of the more interesting spell effects you can craft. <insert screenshots>

I'd be so happy to see a post or two like this on a weekly basis.

The fact that you use the term "high-maintenance" to describe yourself says it all. Being high-maintenance isn't a good thing. No one wants to be that.

The reason that developers don't offer the kind of pandering you're asking for is that players would take the communication and turn it in to a thousand new reasons to complain. If development plans changed, they'd complain. If they didn't get information about their specific pet project, they'd complain. As it is, there's enough complaining, but it's a lot easier to deal with a smaller set of concentrated threads instead of an explosion of whining.

whsprwind

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

The reason that developers don't offer the kind of pandering you're asking for is that players would take the communication and turn it in to a thousand new reasons to complain. If development plans changed, they'd complain. If they didn't get information about their specific pet project, they'd complain. As it is, there's enough complaining, but it's a lot easier to deal with a smaller set of concentrated threads instead of an explosion of whining.

You prefer the silent treatment?

I agree with OP, devs need to speak up a lot more on the bugs and glaring issues

rophez_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

I don't see how so many MMO companies can make the mistake of not being extremely active and present on their own forums. ZOS is just as guilty. Devs RARELY post, and instead we get community reps who reply sporadically to posts, but usually just to pass information along. Don't get me wrong, Jessica and Gina are awesome, but I can only imagine they have their hands tied pretty tightly when it comes to talking about systems and progress, etc.

The lack of communication is really bad in this game. It's like they threw a bunch of cool ideas out at Quakecon and then decided that was good enough. They clearly don't realize how high maintenance MMO players are. I need weekly updates on that stuff, at least.

You can say I'm whining and making a fuss over nothing, but I'm just passing along what would help to keep me happy and subscribing. Take it for what it's worth.

More dev presence, and more status updates on systems.

Here's a sample:

Hey guys! It's Billy the dev here. Wanted to give you an update on how Spellcrafting is coming along. We've really nailed down a lot of the nuts and bolts, but there are a few balancing issues we're tweaking. I'm really hoping we can get this out to you by update 6. Here are a couple screenshots of some of the more interesting spell effects you can craft. <insert screenshots>

I'd be so happy to see a post or two like this on a weekly basis.

The fact that you use the term "high-maintenance" to describe yourself says it all. Being high-maintenance isn't a good thing. No one wants to be that.

The reason that developers don't offer the kind of pandering you're asking for is that players would take the communication and turn it in to a thousand new reasons to complain. If development plans changed, they'd complain. If they didn't get information about their specific pet project, they'd complain. As it is, there's enough complaining, but it's a lot easier to deal with a smaller set of concentrated threads instead of an explosion of whining.

Actually, I'm a paying customer, and my mindset isn't uncommon. Yes, high maintenance customers are difficult to please, but we DO have options. I like ESO, but I need more communication. Simple as that.

Voodoo

..1697 PAGES!! of posts. ...I dont want the Devs sitting down all day long reading the forums. ...Rather I want forums monitors reading the articles for them and telling them a consensus of what is being written with the odd "good" thread singled out for them to read personally.

Its called efficient time management. Not forum baby sitting and player petting.

Curragraigue

I would rather the developers focus on fixing things and developing new content rather posting a response to the 100th post repeating the same complaint. I think having staff specifically for conveying information when the timing is right is the most sensible thing to do, it means we have people specifically to respond to queries and convey issues to the developers to add to the list of things to do.

They can't go into the details until they are sure what they want to do can be done and how it will be done so that it is fun and balanced for everyone.

Having said that I have seen developers post on the forum to respond to some queries. If you check developer tracker you will see a post that Brian Wheeler the head developer for PvP made recently.

We will hear more information when something is fixed or it is in a final enough form for them to let us know. Also make sure to check the developer tracker and developer discussions where they have lots of information about what they are working on and they have already responded to some queries.

rophez_ESO

Yeah, cause Devs just code 24/7 and never surf or have a minute to post updates to fans. Oh wait... lot's of quality Devs do that. Check this guy's updates: playrust.com

I guess it just matters how much you want to please your player base vs. how much you want to pretend every second of your day is just too filled with "more important stuff."

I highly doubt most of the senior Devs like Paul Sage and Matt Firor even code anymore. Have them type some weekly updates. It's not rocket science guys. Think "The Road Ahead" articles, but shorter and more like twice a week.

NukeAllTheThings

I would rather the devs only read the in game bug reports and in-game data. There is enough there to keep them more than busy

Zheg

I could stand to see a bit more dev presence on the forums, especially when it comes to long-running issues like WW, stamina imbalance, batpulse in cyrodil, cryodil... everything . Even if it's nothing concrete, or timelines, it's certainly helpful to have them pop up once in a while and reiterate that they know about issue X and are still addressing it. Or at least, pop up just a few more times than they're currently averaging.

On the bright side, as least we have Jessica, and thank god for that.

ers101284b14_ESO

I'd kinda like to see a Dev come on here and just flip his **** all over the place. Go all Phil Fish up in here.

Nazon_Katts

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see a Dev come on here and just flip his **** all over the place. Go all Phil Fish up in here.

Any feedback would be welcome at this stage.

rophez_ESO

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see a Dev come on here and just flip his **** all over the place. Go all Phil Fish up in here.

That would be refreshing...

ers101284b14_ESO

rophez_ESO wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see a Dev come on here and just flip his **** all over the place. Go all Phil Fish up in here.

That would be refreshing...

Be hilarious. He would never get another job ever but would be funny.

Resueht

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, cause Devs just code 24/7 and never surf or have a minute to post updates to fans. Oh wait... lot's of quality Devs do that. Check this guy's updates: playrust.com

Yeah, except Rust is a small team with much more flexibility. It could be than in ESO's case the devs are on a short leash about what they can and cant say. I'm sure most of them want to say a lot of things but just can't because NDA for unfinished products.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see SOMETHING come out just to acknowledge they are working on X this week and Y next week or something similar. I just think we shouldn't blame devs who are part of a much larger corporation.

Evergnar

There's a very good reason why there are PR & CS departments in businesses that deal with the general public. You don't want devs, programmers or engineers doing that.

That being said the more information that can be communicated with the players (via any dept) the happier we as customers will be.

Voodoo

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, cause Devs just code 24/7 and never surf or have a minute to post updates to fans. Oh wait... lot's of quality Devs do that. Check this guy's updates: playrust.com

I guess it just matters how much you want to please your player base vs. how much you want to pretend every second of your day is just too filled with "more important stuff."

I highly doubt most of the senior Devs like Paul Sage and Matt Firor even code anymore. Have them type some weekly updates. It's not rocket science guys. Think "The Road Ahead" articles, but shorter and more like twice a week.

..ya thats right they are paid a six figure income and have plenty of time to surf the web and chat to player on forums ..not really to many, meetings or paperwork or deadlines or commitments or problems or whatever else a senior devs do in the day.

Curragraigue

Did you see this post as well by Jessica:

Hey folks,

We're working on a few new programs that are built around answering your questions in a more live environment. Not quite ready to roll them out yet, but in the meantime, what would you like to see?

taken from here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130898/why-has-it-been-3-months-since-the-last-aua-update-here-on-the-eso-site#latest

which at the time of making this post is a post on the first page of the same section you made this post. They only provide information once they don't respond to multiple threads on the same topic.

If you have a suggestion I would post in that thread if I were you OP.

TequilaFire

Wouldn't it be awesome if Pete Hines who basically does PR drop in once in a while?
Imagine the flurry of responses.

I know he reads the forum, hmm I wonder if he trolls on secret account? lol

ers101284b14_ESO

Curragraigue wrote: »

Did you see this post as well by Jessica:

Hey folks,

We're working on a few new programs that are built around answering your questions in a more live environment. Not quite ready to roll them out yet, but in the meantime, what would you like to see?

taken from here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130898/why-has-it-been-3-months-since-the-last-aua-update-here-on-the-eso-site#latest

which at the time of making this post is a post on the first page of the same section you made this post. They only provide information once they don't respond to multiple threads on the same topic.

If you have a suggestion I would post in that thread if I were you OP.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130937/zos-editorial-team-reddit-ama-wednesday-10th-september-2pm-eastern-time#latest

There's also an AMA coming up though I doubt it's going to answer very many questions.

Sarenia

Evergnar wrote: »

There's a very good reason why there are PR & CS departments in businesses that deal with the general public. You don't want devs, programmers or engineers doing that.

That being said the more information that can be communicated with the players (via any dept) the happier we as customers will be.

Agree on both counts.

There are really just so many good reasons to not have the developers communicating directly and openly with players, unless it's a dev specifically tasked with coordinating that communication bridge.

Aenra

- they read everything. Has been proven time and time again

- most of the posts reveal nothing but the immaturity of an audience they are but forced to entice. Be it evidenced in lack of understanding, inability to grasp the difference between "works for me" and Massively=what must work for many, not you, lack of patience, or lack of will in the end. Will to accept a different approach, or a different means to reach that well trodden same end

(how do you expect a dev to reply to the above? With patronising, overly superficial responses? Would that help? Cause they sure as hell cannot tell us you are effing morons. I respect the honest approach of them proving they read everything, yet refraining from sugarcoating a surface most of us have already glimpsed through)

- some posts here have good points, accurately stated and logically explained. I can assure you they were aware of most these issues well before we thought of them. Be it the people funding the game, be it matt firor, be it most likely a combination of factors, they consciously chose to curtail/avoid them. If one attempted to read through the lines, the change in direction, the hasty but never core shaking alterations, the shift in PR right before launch, the very patch order in itself, would have made all that evident.
It was (and yes i admit i fail to agree in most things) a conscious, thought in advance direction they took. In everything. From launching with the bank duplicates bug to half switching their AH stance. Just as it was in all the good stuff, the ones that make us sub

(what do you expect them to do? Come here and detail what to you? The outcome of conversations lasting 5 and 6 months? You are not privy to inside info, and should not be. They could do it for the sake of appeasement, but..is that not, again, patronising of some form?)

- you neglected to note how certain proposals/ideas were not only accepted by them, but in fact already implemented and live. For me that is the best "dev presence" i can hope for. Cause it is tangible. Words are air. Poof

Despite all this, (at the OP), you should have known that they are instead organising a future "channel" where they will be having a more direct presence sort to speak. When considering the above, i find said announcement more than enough.
Since the ADD suffering populace will fail to contain so many lines in their collective unused synapses, the rest of you, imagine needing to address them. Yourselves. And compare the outcome of such an imagining to other devs', in other AAA titles, forum postings. And tell me which of the two stances you find more insulting

rophez_ESO

Aenra wrote: »

- they read everything. Has been proven time and time again

- most of the posts reveal nothing but the immaturity of an audience they are but forced to entice. Be it evidenced in lack of understanding, inability to grasp the difference between "works for me" and Massively=what must work for many, not you, lack of patience, or lack of will in the end. Will to accept a different approach, or a different means to reach that well trodden same end

(how do you expect a dev to reply to the above? With patronising, overly superficial responses? Would that help? Cause they sure as hell cannot tell us you are effing morons. I respect the honest approach of them proving they read everything, yet refraining from sugarcoating a surface most of us have already glimpsed through)

- some posts here have good points, accurately stated and logically explained. I can assure you they were aware of most these issues well before we thought of them. Be it the people funding the game, be it matt firor, be it most likely a combination of factors, they consciously chose to curtail/avoid them. If one attempted to read through the lines, the change in direction, the hasty but never core shaking alterations, the shift in PR right before launch, the very patch order in itself, would have made all that evident.
It was (and yes i admit i fail to agree in most things) a conscious, thought in advance direction they took. In everything. From launching with the bank duplicates bug to half switching their AH stance. Just as it was in all the good stuff, the ones that make us sub

(what do you expect them to do? Come here and detail what to you? The outcome of conversations lasting 5 and 6 months? You are not privy to inside info, and should not be. They could do it for the sake of appeasement, but..is that not, again, patronising of some form?)

- you neglected to note how certain proposals/ideas were not only accepted by them, but in fact already implemented and live. For me that is the best "dev presence" i can hope for. Cause it is tangible. Words are air. Poof

Despite all this, (at the OP), you should have known that they are instead organising a future "channel" where they will be having a more direct presence sort to speak. When considering the above, i find said announcement more than enough.
Since the ADD suffering populace will fail to contain so many lines in their collective unused synapses, the rest of you, imagine needing to address them. Yourselves. And compare the outcome of such an imagining to other devs', in other AAA titles, forum postings. And tell me which of the two stances you find more insulting

Your syntax is bizarre - are you an alien, sir?

Lionxoft

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see a Dev come on here and just flip his **** all over the place. Go all Phil Fish up in here.

ZOS devs aren't coddled babies like Fish.

ers101284b14_ESO

Lionxoft wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see a Dev come on here and just flip his **** all over the place. Go all Phil Fish up in here.

ZOS devs aren't coddled babies like Fish.

I know but everyone's got a breaking point. Remember they are only human

Draxuul

rophez_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

I don't see how so many MMO companies can make the mistake of not being extremely active and present on their own forums. ZOS is just as guilty. Devs RARELY post, and instead we get community reps who reply sporadically to posts, but usually just to pass information along. Don't get me wrong, Jessica and Gina are awesome, but I can only imagine they have their hands tied pretty tightly when it comes to talking about systems and progress, etc.

The lack of communication is really bad in this game. It's like they threw a bunch of cool ideas out at Quakecon and then decided that was good enough. They clearly don't realize how high maintenance MMO players are. I need weekly updates on that stuff, at least.

You can say I'm whining and making a fuss over nothing, but I'm just passing along what would help to keep me happy and subscribing. Take it for what it's worth.

More dev presence, and more status updates on systems.

Here's a sample:

Hey guys! It's Billy the dev here. Wanted to give you an update on how Spellcrafting is coming along. We've really nailed down a lot of the nuts and bolts, but there are a few balancing issues we're tweaking. I'm really hoping we can get this out to you by update 6. Here are a couple screenshots of some of the more interesting spell effects you can craft. <insert screenshots>

I'd be so happy to see a post or two like this on a weekly basis.

The fact that you use the term "high-maintenance" to describe yourself says it all. Being high-maintenance isn't a good thing. No one wants to be that.

The reason that developers don't offer the kind of pandering you're asking for is that players would take the communication and turn it in to a thousand new reasons to complain. If development plans changed, they'd complain. If they didn't get information about their specific pet project, they'd complain. As it is, there's enough complaining, but it's a lot easier to deal with a smaller set of concentrated threads instead of an explosion of whining.

Actually, I'm a paying customer, and my mindset isn't uncommon. Yes, high maintenance customers are difficult to please, but we DO have options. I like ESO, but I need more communication. Simple as that.

We are all paying customers here , doesn't mean that we can get to boss anyone around. We pay for the game , we have what we pay for.

The devs are already posting updates here when they know they are releasing content soon , or when they have futur plans for classes and stuff like that .

They sure as hell don't want to be posting stuff everytime one of them has a new idea for something before they know for sure that this new idea is gonna get into the game and when.

They post when they are sure that the information they are sharing is accurate and the rest of the time they read what we write and takes notes .

I've watched quite a few of their interviews and live presentations and they mentioned the forums quite a few times as well as other social media .

They are active here , they do take our feedback seriously , or at least that is the feeling i'm getting from what i've seen so far . Considering that they've already nerfed so much of the game because of all the whining about it being too hard in it's early days.

So i'm with Nerevarine1138 here , there is no point in them posting anything unless they're absolutly sure that the information they're sharing is accurate.

Draxuul

Nocturnalis

Yes, other big MMOs do this - it can have some positives, but often leads to more complaints, more dev time spent replying to complaints, dev's words get twisted by the forum-goers, community managers wasting time untwisting the twisted facts, to only get passive aggressive backlash, and then the demands start coming in, the dev's called out for broken "promises", as mentioning a feature = promise this will be in game asap, then the mob says devs don't know what is best, forums then want game design by democracy, dev's then step in and explain that they ultimately are making the gameplay decisions, then the forum choir screams "then why even ask for our input, if you just ignore it?", and through out this whole thing are threats of unsubbing, harassment, and yes, even death threats, over a game, a friggin game.



It would be peachy.


This is satire... but not far from reality.

Elf_Boy

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Actually, I'm a paying customer, and my mindset isn't uncommon. Yes, high maintenance customers are difficult to please, but we DO have options. I like ESO, but I need more communication. Simple as that.

Yes - your mindset is uncommon.

You yourself stated many/most MMO's are like this.

My perspective is these forums are awesome compared to most.

Having the expectation the world, your boss, or thing X is going to change just for you is unrealistic and puerile.

The devs are here to provide a product to the general public and finding a balance, for making as many people as happy as possible. I for one believe the people who actually DEVelope the game should be busy developing the game.

The people who have been hired to work with the self-entitled, narcissistic, loud mouthed general public are the ones who should be working the forums.

These moderators actually talk to the game designers. That is very rare in this industry. Be happy anything, from anyone, posted in this or any topics on these boards makes it to the devs at all.

You are, I believe, trying to point out you have a right to your -high maintenance- opinion, no? Well by that same so-called right, I and everyone here, have our right to give our opinion of your opinion.

Of course those rights only really apply to public, non-private spaces which this is not. I thank everyone involved in creating, producing, and bringing this game to the world at large for being so great at the job.

LadyNerevar

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Hey guys! It's Billy the dev here. Wanted to give you an update on how Spellcrafting is coming along. We've really nailed down a lot of the nuts and bolts, but there are a few balancing issues we're tweaking. I'm really hoping we can get this out to you by update 6. Here are a couple screenshots of some of the more interesting spell effects you can craft. <insert screenshots>

The problem with this example is that it says... well, nothing, really.

"Nailed down nuts and bolts" - do you mean the high level design document? The individual spreadsheets? First playable implementation? It's bug free? Matt Firor signed off on it?

"Few balancing issues we're tweaking" - is this something design is doing? It it being playtested? Code adjustments? There's something off about it to our content lead, but he can't say what, so we're just playing with stuff until he likes it?

"Out to you by update 6" - when it doesn't get there by update 6, either because those "tweaks" turned out to require a complete redesign, or because there were more QA issue than expected, or because something blew up on another feature and the manpower was shifted, everyone here will be pissed off.

"Here are a couple screenshots" - ... of kinda crappy looking placeholder particle effects because the real one won't be ready for another week. And then they might be redone because someone didn't like them. We as players will critique, criticize, and generally find fault with the art no matter how much a developer says "alpha footage."


This paragraph is basically a longer (though no more substantial) version of what Gina, Jessica, and the rest of the community team has been posting. Having a developer post it doesn't make it more meaningful - it just makes you attach more meaning to it. And since developers aren't trained in the fine art of wrangling the player base, it's got a whole lot more room to go totally sideways.

And then, of course, are the other issues people mentioned upthread, such as the sheer amount of posts on this forum, the number of repeat questions/suggestions, the fact that answering all these questions would require coordination with marketing and community management. There's also the fact that you're asking developers to take time out of their day to read hundreds of posts telling them that they suck, that they're lazy, that they don't know how to do their jobs, etc. etc. etc. That stuff is demoralizing, and many developers avoid reading about their work for precisely that reason.

All that being said... I would love to see the Ask Us Anything threads from the official Bethesda forums make a showing around here.

Shaun98ca2

I have also seen on other forums devs post and then get instantly attacked by the player base and well......

Im sorry but these people work WAY too hard to come to the forums to told their idiots don't know how to properly develop a game, should be fired blah blah blah.

Its disheartening when your pour your heart and soul into something you care so much about just to be attacked by uninformed over privileged crybabies.

Theres a bug in the game fix it........its not fixed yet you obviously don't care.......REALLY?

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

rophez_ESO wrote: »

They clearly don't realize how high maintenance MMO players are. I need weekly updates on that stuff, at least.

Get used to disappointment then.

Nazon_Katts

http://youtu.be/3flv5nWZgII