Forward Camps & ZOS

Skafsgaard

Yes another one. But I'd like to have something clarified.

Did some ZOS dev state anywhere that you arent supposed to be teleporting around to FC? It seems like a lot of people mean to understand that FCs arent working as intended - and that you should be in the circle to revive there. Im curious where did you get this information?

If it's something you figured out yourselves or of ZOS has stated something on the matter?

Keron

To be honest, I think that with the absolute silence of the Greens in this regard, most of us (blatant generalization, I know) by now think that it is actually working as intended. That doesn't make it good or right, which is why there are so many threads (with hundreds of posts) requesting changes, but nonetheless, bloodporting seems to be their idea of a good strategy.

Actually, the way I have read the posts referring to the "white circles" indicates that players want the limitation to rez at the tent only if died within the circle as a new and improved feature of tents.

Skafsgaard

So, do you like it better now, that we have NO Forward Camps?

This is directed to all you 'only spawn within white circle' guys..

To me, PvP has become a joke and soo boring without camps.

thelordoffelines

We are well rid of camps.

Sile

I honestly think that keeps need to be revisited in terms of defence and bursting. Camps only provided a bandaid fix at best. Also more ports and res spots should be out and about.

Most of the keeps are poorly designed defensively, and keeps are usually, but but always determined by numbers in larger battles, particularly since there are no more ground oils. Camps allowed for keeps to be defended through attrition, and to give attackers a second chance if wiped.

Skafsgaard

thelordoffelines wrote: »

We are well rid of camps.

So you like the mindless zerging between Brk and Arrius or 3 hour bridge fights?

Just doesnt seem right that you cannot have a scout far up north / down south to make a surprise attack and be a good guy to put a camp for you faction - fight new places. Now this is only possible with an organized grp/raid

ps. I have organized guild who still has camps - im talking about the 'solo / pug' experience, which is now reduced to mindless zerging back and forth, not to say that any player who likes stealthing now have huge advantages over those who prefer to play for the campaign.

synnerman

Skafsgaard wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

We are well rid of camps.

So you like the mindless zerging between Brk and Arrius or 3 hour bridge fights?

Just doesnt seem right that you cannot have a scout far up north / down south to make a surprise attack and be a good guy to put a camp for you faction - fight new places. Now this is only possible with an organized grp/raid

ps. I have organized guild who still has camps - im talking about the 'solo / pug' experience, which is now reduced to mindless zerging back and forth, not to say that any player who likes stealthing now have huge advantages over those who prefer to play for the campaign.

Totally agree with you matey. The meta has changed since the camps went and we need them back but in the form that they can only be used by people who die in the radius of the camp to stop bloodporting. People don't want to risk moving out of their comfort zone and have to run 2-3 keeps away risking ganking and horse sim again. So what is happening is that the enemy know where the grps are going most of the time ie the next available keep.

This then produces a couple of things ...a seesaw of zergs moving back and forth between keeps and then this then draws the 3rd faction to the large grp of enemies that are in a guaranteed place thus ending up with all 3 factions in the same place.

This happens constantly on Thornblade EU and with more players now arriving its bleeding over onto the other campaigns and gonna end up in a big mess. We need the camps back but revamped.

Keron

@Skafsgaard

I'm more ok without FC than with the initial implementation of them. That said, I still hope a new-and-improved version will come back some time. There are more serious matters to fix in that land, though.

In regards to your question of surprise attacks: I would really like them to come back and I would also like for more possibilities to evade the choke points, but the old "someone sneak and tent, rest bloodport" thing was awful. As you mentioned, you still can do it, if you have a disciplined group and manage to stay undiscovered until the keep lights up.

It would be way easier with a new-and-improved tent, but the fact remains that if you want to go for a surprise attack, you'd have to have your whole group sneak there - and that is fine.

I think the main problem with Cyrodiil sans tent is patience: everyone wants to jump right into the fight, no holes barred and no matter the consequences. In combination with lack of tents, many get frustrated when it ends up being the wrong hole.

What happened to "the best defense is attacking somewhere else"? What happened to "if you want to break their stride, you have to break supply lines"? Why is everyone stacking in Arrius instead of going for Sejanus (EP perspective) if there's a "suddenly, Bananas. 1000s of them." going on there?

Answer: Because everyone says it's easier to farm AP at the bridge. The fact that this is only true for the "best" group there (meaning the most coordinated) gets glossed over. So the people that don't earn AP ragequit. Much worse, is usually the new blood that quits to never return - which prevents growth.

I certainly went a little far in the arguments above - I know. Nonetheless there may be some merit to it. FC's are not the main issue and in themselves will not solve the problem.

Skafsgaard

Yea, I guess it's more complicated that so - and while I personally dont mind bloodporting as such, I know a lot has issues with it and that's ok. I also like the idea of the 'improved' FC with spawn radius. Anyway, putting a camp or 3 now just leads to immense lag, as everyone comes. So maybe the 'respawn within radius' camp may actually be a good and quick way to distribute people across the map - as they can stay and put a fight for longer - and I also kind of miss these huge ongoing sieges for hours, where all is chaos and you just try to do the best.

I mean for myself personally, its not a huge problem - if I get bored I ride up and flag warden or arrius or some ***, but im here talking about the 'basic' experience for new and/or solo type players - where options are limited.

Maulkin

ZOS said they are looking at ways to make people spread out over the map. Well, forward camps are one of them.

They just need to remove the ability to teleport to it if outside the circle, which actually had the opposite effect by funneling people into the same spot. At the moment the risk/reward ratio is too high to ride for 10 mins behind enemy lines.

Zerging between two keeps is more AP efficient and with shorter runs back into the action, not to mention the chance to get res'ed by randoms

Zheg

Forward camps would only make the zerging problem worse, and were one of the main reasons that drove me out of pvp at the time. It's near impossible to achieve an objective when zergs on both sides just keep dropping forward camps and rezzing in a spot that takes them 15 seconds to run back from. With rapid and a full specced speed horse you can get where you want to go in < a couple of minutes usually. If the run is too long, then your alliance needs to do a better job of scouting and responding to threats before your keeps are burst.

Good riddance to forward camps, I hope to never see them in the game again.

ZOS_BrianWheeler

Any FC's currently in the game (from the great FC purchase storm prior to their removal) allows for porting to it when you die. Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one, however this still is not ready for PTS or Live.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Any FC's currently in the game (from the great FC purchase storm prior to their removal) allows for porting to it when you die. Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one, however this still is not ready for PTS or Live.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler I think the main contention point with FC's is that they were being used for 2 purposes. The first - As a method of travel across large distances. The second - As a mass revival during a defense / attack.

1. In my eyes if you want to spread players around cyro (to reduce lag) you need to have a method of traveling fast to a location without 'death porting' or 'horse simulator'. Ideally summoning by a certain number of players or rebuilding one of the damaged wayshrines that you see around the map - (these could be siege able to destroy, regardless of the faction that controls them, and controlled by long capture 'flag' like mechanics). Yes making camps only resable at within the radius stops the bloodport but it doesn't solve the 'problem' imo.

2. The mass revive is really OP for such a quick to place thing. I could place a camp with 5 or 6 people hitting me and stop them burning it long enough to have my team of 20 players spawn and kill them. Camp placement should #1 not be possible if you are hit during the placement (a bit like when you try and burn a siege) (EDIT: And you must be out of sneak to start placing) and #2 take slightly longer.

Aside from these things camps were fine before. Troll camps were easy to deal with as a faction and actually very rarely occurred on EU at least.

Sublime

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Any FC's currently in the game (from the great FC purchase storm prior to their removal) allows for porting to it when you die. Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one, however this still is not ready for PTS or Live.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler I think the main contention point with FC's is that they were being used for 2 purposes. The first - As a method of travel across large distances. The second - As a mass revival during a defense / attack.

1. In my eyes if you want to spread players around cyro (to reduce lag) you need to have a method of traveling fast to a location without 'death porting' or 'horse simulator'. Ideally summoning by a certain number of players or rebuilding one of the damaged wayshrines that you see around the map - (these could be siege able to destroy, regardless of the faction that controls them, and controlled by long capture 'flag' like mechanics). Yes making camps only resable at within the radius stops the bloodport but it doesn't solve the 'problem' imo.

2. The mass revive is really OP for such a quick to place thing. I could place a camp with 5 or 6 people hitting me and stop them burning it long enough to have my team of 20 players spawn and kill them. Camp placement should #1 not be possible if you are hit during the placement (a bit like when you try and burn a siege) and #2 take slightly longer.

Aside from these things camps were fine before. Troll camps were easy to deal with as a faction and actually very rarely occurred on EU at least.

Or simply add a debuff to players who spawned at a camp such as:

• spawns at 20% HP/Magicka/Stamina
• All regenerations reduced by 75% for 30s
• Damage Output, healing received, shield streanght reduced by 75% for 30s
• Unable to Mount and slowed by 10% for 30s
• all bonuses to sneak are reduced by 90% for 30s

I think you get the idea.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sublime wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Any FC's currently in the game (from the great FC purchase storm prior to their removal) allows for porting to it when you die. Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one, however this still is not ready for PTS or Live.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler I think the main contention point with FC's is that they were being used for 2 purposes. The first - As a method of travel across large distances. The second - As a mass revival during a defense / attack.

1. In my eyes if you want to spread players around cyro (to reduce lag) you need to have a method of traveling fast to a location without 'death porting' or 'horse simulator'. Ideally summoning by a certain number of players or rebuilding one of the damaged wayshrines that you see around the map - (these could be siege able to destroy, regardless of the faction that controls them, and controlled by long capture 'flag' like mechanics). Yes making camps only resable at within the radius stops the bloodport but it doesn't solve the 'problem' imo.

2. The mass revive is really OP for such a quick to place thing. I could place a camp with 5 or 6 people hitting me and stop them burning it long enough to have my team of 20 players spawn and kill them. Camp placement should #1 not be possible if you are hit during the placement (a bit like when you try and burn a siege) and #2 take slightly longer.

Aside from these things camps were fine before. Troll camps were easy to deal with as a faction and actually very rarely occurred on EU at least.

Or simply add a debuff to players who spawned at a camp such as:

• spawns at 20% HP/Magicka/Stamina
• All regenerations reduced by 75% for 30s
• Damage Output, healing received, shield streanght reduced by 75% for 30s
• Unable to Mount and slowed by 10% for 30s
• all bonuses to sneak are reduced by 90% for 30s

I think you get the idea.

How would this address point 1? The difficulty should be in placing the camp not once you have respawned at it imo.

cozmon3c_ESO

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Any FC's currently in the game (from the great FC purchase storm prior to their removal) allows for porting to it when you die. Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one, however this still is not ready for PTS or Live.

Awesome, hope this are out soon, it removes the terrible blood porting and adds some diversity of attacks to everywhere. yes you may have to horse sim to distant keeps but you get a safety net now with your forward camp. glad your working on this brian, again i hope to see them soon, it will bring a more dynamic battlefield.

Maudieu

I can't believe that forward camps are still in the game.

cozmon3c_ESO

Maudieu wrote: »

I can't believe that forward camps are still in the game.

its mainly the EU server, the change happened on NA first so EU knew what was happening and bout a crap ton of them, so many that it may take years to run out lol.

Sublime

Maudieu wrote: »

I can't believe that forward camps are still in the game.

They still are in the game, but can't be purchased anymore, so you only see them very rarely.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Any FC's currently in the game (from the great FC purchase storm prior to their removal) allows for porting to it when you die. Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one, however this still is not ready for PTS or Live.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler I think the main contention point with FC's is that they were being used for 2 purposes. The first - As a method of travel across large distances. The second - As a mass revival during a defense / attack.

1. In my eyes if you want to spread players around cyro (to reduce lag) you need to have a method of traveling fast to a location without 'death porting' or 'horse simulator'. Ideally summoning by a certain number of players or rebuilding one of the damaged wayshrines that you see around the map - (these could be siege able to destroy, regardless of the faction that controls them, and controlled by long capture 'flag' like mechanics). Yes making camps only resable at within the radius stops the bloodport but it doesn't solve the 'problem' imo.

2. The mass revive is really OP for such a quick to place thing. I could place a camp with 5 or 6 people hitting me and stop them burning it long enough to have my team of 20 players spawn and kill them. Camp placement should #1 not be possible if you are hit during the placement (a bit like when you try and burn a siege) and #2 take slightly longer.

Aside from these things camps were fine before. Troll camps were easy to deal with as a faction and actually very rarely occurred on EU at least.

Or simply add a debuff to players who spawned at a camp such as:

• spawns at 20% HP/Magicka/Stamina
• All regenerations reduced by 75% for 30s
• Damage Output, healing received, shield streanght reduced by 75% for 30s
• Unable to Mount and slowed by 10% for 30s
• all bonuses to sneak are reduced by 90% for 30s

I think you get the idea.

How would this address point 1? The difficulty should be in placing the camp not once you have respawned at it imo.

I think having to actually ride to a spot makes sense, otherwise all front lines are basically inexistent. My personal problem right now is that death becomes increasingly punishing the further away you get from the frontline, which is a counterincentive to spreading across the map. Having a possibility to create a local respawn point might help a lot.

My debuff idea was mainly aimed at problem 2., since I don't have a problem with having to ride to a spot at least once.

Kuro1n

To spread users over the map there needs to be incentive to actually go do other things than farming players. I mean if you want to get AP where do you go? To the place with NO players or the place with a lot of players? Hint: You don't need a hint. That is pretty much how it works.

If they added small things (like GW2 had caravans) which gave good AP for protecting or killing then people would definitely spread out more even across the map and you would see fights in a lot of different places.

WhiskeyJac

Without FC's there is a penalty for dying , now a grp thinks twice before they rush in, else all they have to do is leave one behind and keep rushing until u succeed. The whole running back thing makes u think if you can actually stay alive when u jump on a enemy, a better change would be to decrease the cost of soul gems in cyrodill and encourage resizing .

FMonk

FCs did add an additional strategic element to sieges, in that you had to actively control the entire courtyard/resources when attacking to prevent defenders from setting up camps for reinforcements. You also had defending groups sneak out and cap resources behind siege lines to burn camps/take control of their fallback point.

I honestly think camps made keep sieges more interesting than they are now. Currently, most keeps are taken either by a massive zergblob on the front lines, or an organized group riding to a non-front line keep and PvDooring to try and ninja it before defenders can respond. FCs made controlling the area around the keep more important than just sheer numbers, and added a lot more variety to keep takes.

reagen_lionel

Kuro1n wrote: »

To spread users over the map there needs to be incentive to actually go do other things than farming players. I mean if you want to get AP where do you go? To the place with NO players or the place with a lot of players? Hint: You don't need a hint. That is pretty much how it works.

If they added small things (like GW2 had caravans) which gave good AP for protecting or killing then people would definitely spread out more even across the map and you would see fights in a lot of different places.

This was kind of my problem with cyrodil as a whole. there wasnt much incentive to actually go out away from the big crowds if you wanted AP.

That and the world felt empty with not much to do besides Siege Warfare if you wanted to pvp or naturally just run into pvp.

KleanZlate

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Any FC's currently in the game (from the great FC purchase storm prior to their removal) allows for porting to it when you die. Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one, however this still is not ready for PTS or Live.

Aww, can't for that moment when I die just outside the edge of that radius Good news.

SoulScream

I think every game I've ever played except ESO has had rez sickness!

Maulkin

All it needs is:

• rez sickness
• spawn if died only within the radius
• smaller radius

C'mon Brian, deliver us Forward Camps 2.0 and we shall love you for.....5 minutes. Then we'll start asking about Imperial City again

Tripwyr

Put controllable "forward camp ready locations" in the game. 3 Spots inside keeps, one at each resource, one at each outpost. Forward camps can only be placed at these locations, so you can keep scouts and/or strike teams at these locations, and controlling these locations would be an important tactical decision.

Note that these are not actual capturable locations, simply restricted locations on which forward camps can be placed. In order to place a forward camp, you must control the associated structure (keep, outpost, resource). Maybe make outposts an exception and allow forward camps to be placed without ownership.

eventide03b14a_ESO

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Any FC's currently in the game (from the great FC purchase storm prior to their removal) allows for porting to it when you die. Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one, however this still is not ready for PTS or Live.

This is really all we were asking for. Well not all, but it's a great start.

Sleep

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Internally we have adjusted this behavior so you must be in the radius of the camp to rez at one,

I like this idea.

Garion

Forward camps need to be reintroduced URGENTLY. Part of the lag problem comes from the fact that everyone is mindlessly zerging (as acknowledged by ZOS staff). Introducing forward camps will help spread people out. Please do it, and do it fast.

Dazin93

Forward camps had their inherent issues, but the complete removal of them has made PvP a far worse experience imo. Cyrodiil isn't very welcoming for the casual player, and became even less so once it became so time intensive to travel anywhere.

As much as people argued against forward camps, the fact is that PvP populations have been in decline ever since they were removed. Organized guilds don't like them as it adds an aspect to the game they can't control. Without FC's they are free to roam and roll through opposing players with their only risk being of meeting another organized guild. However, this does nothing to further the PvP experience for the casual player which probably constitutes 70% of the campaign pop.

This is why most fights happen at the outposts or bridges as most casual players don't want to spend half their time on a horse. People talk about risk vs reward, but there is far more risk for that single player riding to an objective than a full warband. The fighting has become stagnant and predictable ever since FC's were removed. There used to be awesome large scale fights that happened spontaneously and organically; everything now is forced.