3-Manning Veteran Crypt of Hearts - No Tank - Is this balanced correctly?

mazrimtaimxpreub18_ESO

Finished Veteran Crypt of Hearts last night and apparently it is true that you don't need a tank... or even 4 people for that matter. Hoping the new content in the next patch is challenging enough to require a tank - which is my favorite role. Unfortunately tanks just don't seem to be needed in the current design of the veteran dungeons. Anybody else find this true? Have finished all veteran dungeons now using just 3 people...2 DPS and 1 Healer - Suggestion: please make future veteran dungeons more challenging and balanced for a full group.

If anybody is curious here is the video. (Warning: some F-bombs in the vid)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhHePmh6ySQ

PBpsy

mazrimtaimxpreub18_ESO wrote: »

Finished Veteran Crypt of Hearts last night and apparently it is true that you don't need a tank... or even 4 people for that matter. Hoping the new content in the next patch is challenging enough to require a tank - which is my favorite role. Unfortunately tanks just don't seem to be needed in the current design of the veteran dungeons. Anybody else find this true? Have finished all veteran dungeons now using just 3 people...2 DPS and 1 Healer - Suggestion: please make future veteran dungeons more challenging and balanced for a full group.

If anybody is curious here is the video. (Warning: some F-bombs in the vid)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhHePmh6ySQ

So 3 people that got the mechanics of the fight down very nicely manged to do it without a forth with a couple if deaths and lucky rezes . If it was your first try maybe there would have been a point to your original post but as it is, I do not see it.. Also you did have a taunting S&B NB that used Veil of Blades and Immovable for quite a bit of the fight, by TES standards that was tanking. I hope they do not change their direction and make every boss a boring continuous tankandspankfest.

Aeratus

Also you did have a taunting S&B NB that used Veil of Blades and Immovable for quite a bit of the fight, by TES standards that was tanking

I agree. That is pretty clearly considered to be tanking right there, lol.

Natjur

But to clear it under 30 mins and with no deaths, you need 4 players (4 dps, with 2 dps off healing ever now and then)

There are no tanks, just DPS with taunts or Immovable

PBpsy

Aeratus wrote: »

Also you did have a taunting S&B NB that used Veil of Blades and Immovable for quite a bit of the fight, by TES standards that was tanking

I agree. That is pretty clearly considered to be tanking right there, lol.

I did say by TESO standards. I actually like that.

Aeratus

Natjur wrote: »

But to clear it under 30 mins and with no deaths, you need 4 players (4 dps, with 2 dps off healing ever now and then)

There are no tanks, just DPS with taunts or Immovable

Having a real tank is probably sub-optimal.

In the last boss of COH, I've seen groups with 3x dps + 1 healer do so much damage that the the boss could only spawn 1 set of adds during the entire first phase before transitioning to the second phase.

The adds are in fact what gives most groups the biggest problems, because they up the level of coordination required. Groups without excellent dps will struggle in COH with this. Thus, having no tank is optimal.

Then, in the second phase, just have one of the dps be the designated taunter, and roll-dodge the boss's heavy attacks. Alternatively, you can improvise-tank using buffs like immovable.

In a well coordinated group, a full-time tank on that boss is nothing more than a gimped dps.

mazrimtaimxpreub18_ESO

I would say in a well coordinated group, a full-time tank on any dungeon boss is nothing more than a gimped dps. All the 4 man dungeons can be completed with 2 dps and 1 healer. 4 DPS with one of them tossing out heals would just make it faster. I don't think a "tank" is needed. The occasional use of a taunt or a self buff to temporarily take a hard hit or two is about the extent of any tanking needed and can be achieved by most DPS putting a couple of skills on an off bar without being overly detrimental to a DPS build.

When I think of a tank I think of a role that is fulfilled by a class focused on a very high level of damage mitigation... not your traditional uneventful tank and spank but a role that lessens the total damage taken by a group either by taunting key targets or just being very difficult to kill without taking up all the resources of the healer.

This game does not seem to require that role. Each class appears to be able to mitigate enough of their own damage that it is not needed for another class to assist with it other than a healer.

Thus... I agree that the optimal group for any four man dungeon in the game thus far would be straight DPS with just enough healing to keep everybody alive. Does anybody think any four man dungeon group is better off with a tank or just straight DPS/Heals?

Aeratus

Most people generally prefer to have a tank, just because it makes it easy.

But a tank is for sure not required for any of the vet dungeons. Thus, if you're a well coordinated group going for pure efficiency, then having a tank is sub-optimal.

If we had speedrun leaderboards for COH, I'm pretty sure the ideal group would be 4x dps, with one dps being an off-healer.

Right now, speed isn't an issue in dungeons, so people still bring a tank just to make it more relaxing. You can have a pure tank (with a low dps), and still do the COH speedrun pretty easily.

I prefer to run with dps-tanks. That is, tanks that are good at taunting and has some good mitigation, but still do pretty good dps.

Pmarsico9

The "tank role" doesn't really exist in ESO. Which is incredibly lame. You may need a dedicated tank in Trials, but that about does it. Threat, as a mechanic, doesn't exist. All that exists are Taunt debuffs, which removes essentially all potential depth from tanking.

I leveled as a heavy armor templar snb templar and not only have I found my desired playstyle is simply unwarranted, undesired, and quite simply makes almost everything harder because everything is tied to DPS.

Which raises yet another problem: Templar DPS sucks compared to the other three classes.

liquid_wolf

"Tanking" doesn't exist in ESO. Nor do I believe it would make sense. Honestly... from an MMORPG standpoint... Tanks NEVER made sense.

One target? We send multiple people after some bad guy, and we somehow convince him to focus all damage on one target?

The only reason "Tank Builds" exist is because there are fights which require "Tank Builds".

Not because they are cool, or complicated, or even mechanically impressive.

Funneling all damage to a single point, having that point buffed with heals and support, then having allies beating on the target for fifteen minutes is not fun.

You want close calls. Multiple people getting hit at once, and groups needing to adjust strategy mid-fight to account for changes in the terrain and enemy behavior.

Pmarsico9

liquid_wolf wrote: »

"Tanking" doesn't exist in ESO. Nor do I believe it would make sense. Honestly... from an MMORPG standpoint... Tanks NEVER made sense.

One target? We send multiple people after some bad guy, and we somehow convince him to focus all damage on one target?

The only reason "Tank Builds" exist is because there are fights which require "Tank Builds".

Not because they are cool, or complicated, or even mechanically impressive.

Funneling all damage to a single point, having that point buffed with heals and support, then having allies beating on the target for fifteen minutes is not fun.

You want close calls. Multiple people getting hit at once, and groups needing to adjust strategy mid-fight to account for changes in the terrain and enemy behavior.

Except that this is a gross oversimplification:

Having a tank adds depth. Currently, so much of this game is overcome by pure healing and damage metrics that they could use more of "Don't *** off this thing too much or your will get one shot." Which is where a tank comes in.

Not having a traditional tank takes away depth.

Things like debuffs, mob manipulation/grouping, and so forth are never going to be able to exist. Because stack up in a clump, out heal the damage, and burn it all down is what exists now.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/129384/the-tanking-issue-there-arent-tanks-the-tank-role-is-non-existent/p1

Check out the trials video.

You don't need more than one healer either. So what are you saying? It's better that the game is based upon spamming impulse, keeping up combat prayer, and pure metrics? That's what it should be about?

It completely overcomes the need to get out of the bad, too.

It trickles into Veteran Dungeons, as well. Look at Bloodspawn in Spindleclutch.

Group it up and burn him down.

liquid_wolf

@Pmarsico9‌
You can't explain the benefit of "Tanks" by pointing out the flaws in how the game is currently running.

"Not having a traditional tank takes away depth."

How does a tank add depth to the game? In the other MMORPGs around, how does tanking-spanking improve the dungeons and content?

What about one single person holding all the damage, and having one or two people healing him... makes the game better?

Everyone stacking up to kill a boss with impulse is an entirely different matter. Completely broken, and in need of fixing. That isn't about tanking... it is simply about how broken and overpowered those abilities are. In need of fixing.

So how does "Tank & Spank" make a game better? What depth is there that we have not already seen in countless other MMORPGs? Where does tanking make sense in ESO, and what type of content would best show this?

Aeratus

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Nor do I believe it would make sense. Honestly... from an MMORPG standpoint... Tanks NEVER made sense.

That's right. I wish I could play as one of the dungeon bosses against a group, so I can ignore the tank and just stomp on the squishiest healer in the party. The concept of tanking just assumes that dungeon bosses are ***.

Pmarsico9

liquid_wolf wrote: »

@Pmarsico9‌
You can't explain the benefit of "Tanks" by pointing out the flaws in how the game is currently running.

"Not having a traditional tank takes away depth."

How does a tank add depth to the game? In the other MMORPGs around, how does tanking-spanking improve the dungeons and content?

What about one single person holding all the damage, and having one or two people healing him... makes the game better?

Everyone stacking up to kill a boss with impulse is an entirely different matter. Completely broken, and in need of fixing. That isn't about tanking... it is simply about how broken and overpowered those abilities are. In need of fixing.

So how does "Tank & Spank" make a game better? What depth is there that we have not already seen in countless other MMORPGs? Where does tanking make sense in ESO, and what type of content would best show this?

Without true tanks, this game will always be about pure metrics. Therein amplifying class deficiencies and leading to dominance of cookie cutter builds which then in turn trickle down to yielding to class stacking (as exists now, with Sorcs and DK representation vastly greater than that of Temps or Nightblades in competitive trials runs) and the representation of weapon-based builds and medium/heavy armor DPS non-existent.

This is a game where having a true tank build isn't restrictive. In fact, it should be expected. Simply because it's so available.

As such, you can even (le gasp) have encounters that require TWO TANKS! OR THREE!

Because expecting group comps to swap, where you don't have to change specs, just bar loadouts and your gear, which an addon facilitates right now.

So then there could even be benefits to different tanks!

The issue with your line of thought is that you seem to think, for some reason, that zergball heal spam is something that has something to do with anything being overpowered.

You can't make one shot mechanics unless there's somebody who can take the one shot. Aside from things like the Axes in trials, there's very little that does that.

Even with an Impulse nerf, they will still stack to maximize healing and keep Combat Prayer up as much as possible.

So with that said, why don't you enlighten how you will ever make it so that light robe and destro staff/resto staff won't EVER be over powered if you invite one shot mechanics without a tank and force people to spread.

It will AMPLIFY the issues that exist now.

Tank and spank is again, a very limited view of how tanking works.

liquid_wolf

Tanking as a combat mechanic is pointless when limited to "Control the boss and take the damage".

I have no problem with characters that want to have high armor and absorb damage, but when the fights are specifically designed with Tank and Spank in mind, it loses much more than it gains.

As it is right now, I understand the "tank" isn't able to demonstrate his survivability when confronting multitides of enemies. In PvE or PvP. Heavy armor, shield, and weapons stereotypical of the "tank" are not useful in the current state of the game.

Because you become overwhelmed. The difference between two seconds of survivability when trying to fight fifteen other players is unimportant.

The other abilities in the game... light armor... magic staff... are much better at handling the common occurring hordes in the game's PvP.

PvE - Heavy armor is very fine. Tanks work. Quests, delves, dungeons... no issues. One hand and shield can be absolutely useful. Until Raiding.

But that is because of the mass amount of players testing skills balanced for PvP. They carry that directly in to PvE. Test with that in mind because that is what they know. I doubt anyone said "Hey... no one was wearing heavy armor in there... Or using a shield". They just didn't for PvP.

The "Tank" simply isn't - in PvP. Unlike Dynasty Warriors, or other versus the horde based games, they can't simply stomp through the enemy. These are other players with their own builds, and in balancing everyone in PvP... they seem to have skipped the tank.

The solution to this is not to build content that utilizes "The Tank". It is to make it so that players can be "The Tank" and still do content.

I want to see four players hit a dungeon together in all heavy armor and be able to complete it just like four players hitting it in light armor with magic.

Or with PvP... I want that heavy armor to have some impact on the horde. Via charges, taunts, and sweeping attacks.

But I don't want to see "Tank & Spank" content that is encouraging players to be a tank just to do it.

Natjur

In ESO, Tank = taunt.
In four man instance runs, its best to have all players DPS but one with a Inner Beast and Immovable and two with off heals. The vet dugn are currently very easy anyway and most players known how to block, dodge out of damage, so the heals are just needed for when mistake are made.

Heavy armor.....is not needed and not wanted.
The runs I do have all players are in Light or Medium armor (Normally just the NB's for the speed buff).

This game has four roles, but only three are wanted in groups.
(1) Pure DPS
(2) DPS + Heals
(3) DPS + Taunt (not normally needed but makes Pure DPS feel like they can fully burn without worry's)
(4) Thoses in heavy armor

Pmarsico9

liquid_wolf wrote: »

But I don't want to see "Tank & Spank" content that is encouraging players to be a tank just to do it.

Tank and spanks are fine in small doses. They are easy to produce, reduce overall time, and honestly a tank and spank with some minor movement and coordination can also exist. Those are good spots to put things like DPS checks or to provide a pacing mechanism in large group content.

There's a perspective here where a true tank is perceived as ONLY allowing for tank and spanks and that's not the case.

As was posted by @Natjur, not having mob control, or position, or even incoming damage matter in this game has led to more blandness in encounters than anything.

If they ever fix stamina weapon issues, tanks can also provide a valuable interrupt mechanic that can one shot an entire raid. Such is how depth of design works. The mechanical possibilities are actually GREATER with a tank than without.

Cody

tanks are almost completely useless in this game. You can run each "normal" dungeon without one, and maybe 5% of the vet dungeons MAY require one.

Magdalina

Aeratus wrote: »

Natjur wrote: »

But to clear it under 30 mins and with no deaths, you need 4 players (4 dps, with 2 dps off healing ever now and then)

There are no tanks, just DPS with taunts or Immovable

Having a real tank is probably sub-optimal.

In the last boss of COH, I've seen groups with 3x dps + 1 healer do so much damage that the the boss could only spawn 1 set of adds during the entire first phase before transitioning to the second phase.

The adds are in fact what gives most groups the biggest problems, because they up the level of coordination required. Groups without excellent dps will struggle in COH with this. Thus, having no tank is optimal.

Then, in the second phase, just have one of the dps be the designated taunter, and roll-dodge the boss's heavy attacks. Alternatively, you can improvise-tank using buffs like immovable.

In a well coordinated group, a full-time tank on that boss is nothing more than a gimped dps.

The irony here is I actually find that last fight to go much smoother when my dedicated tank tanks those ads. Makes them super easy and not giving anyone any problems;)

The few times when my tank focused on dps there, THEN we had problems with ads.

@mazrimtaimxpreub18_ESO good job in that fight, great team work. I'm still miles away from that, though I did do the speedrun a couple of days ago(with a very tanky tank, yes. And yes, he made stuff TONS easier).

You say you could 3 man it all without a tank, though, I have 2 manned vet Wayrest without a dps. Could probably repeat that in most other vet dungeons(CoH aside). Does it mean dps are not needed?;)

Pmarsico9

I just should mention that during Beta, the Developer Reddit AMA's did specifically call out that tanking would be necessary in this game.

Healers are always needed, DPS are always needed. But tanking is a redheaded step child in how absolutely niche it is.

Aeratus

Magdalina wrote: »

The irony here is I actually find that last fight to go much smoother when my dedicated tank tanks those ads. Makes them super easy and not giving anyone any problems;)

The few times when my tank focused on dps there, THEN we had problems with ads.

Just to explain it in more detail, there are actually two relevant dps thresholds for that boss:

Threshold 1: the group has barely enough dps to stop the adds from accumulating

Threshold 2: the group has such much dps that the adds can be destroyed before they can do any meaningful damage on the party

If your dps lies in somewhere between threshold 1 and threshold 2, then having a tank is optimal. These are the average groups, and that's why they are looking for a tank.

If your dps is above threshold 2, then having a tank is not optimal. If you have three great dps members (such as those who can pull 1.2k or even 1.4k dps in AA trials), the adds literally melt in seconds, and the boss won't even have a chance to spawn more than 1 wave of adds.

If your dps is below threshold 1, then having a tank is also not optimal, because if the adds are accumulating, you won't be able to beat the boss even if your tank has 3k armor and 4k hp.

You say you could 3 man it all without a tank, though, I have 2 manned vet Wayrest without a dps. Could probably repeat that in most other vet dungeons(CoH aside). Does it mean dps are not needed?;)

No, because the healer and tank are also dps.

Khivas_Carrick

This game is a tricky little one when it comes to traditional roles. It offers both Original Builds in that one can be a Support DPS and actually get away with it, while it also has people being pure DPS or Pure Healers, and also getting away with it.

That said, I feel tanks are a necessary thing to have around, unless you wish to have this game become a complete and total hack and slash fest or spam and jam party, where it's literally all about numbers of damage and healing, throwing any strategy out the window with having a tank or healer or dps move about to make things happen.

Either one of the two is ok in it's pure form, because a pure MMORPG where the traditional roles are represented is ok, it adds fights that are like puzzles everyone can enjoy. Or a game that is pretty much a solo Action Game but with a few more people at your side is also ok, because by then it's all about skill and class role goes out the window, purest form of that is acceptable because, as I said, it boils down to skill.

This in between thing is not ok. It alienates players and pigeonholes others into using a certain set with a certain weapon, etc. It's bad. It's also hard to explain because of the nature of this game, but, I suppose what I'm trying to say is......

Is that ZoS kind of has it down going in the right direction to get an Action MMORPG that uses Traditional Class Systems. A healer is always going to be needed, a DPS is always going to be needed, at the present moment though they've weakened Tanks to the point that, while they are "needed" in some aspects of the game, they are not needed in others, and when those tanks go to do their thing, you'll find that they notice their own skill set works against them for being underpowered.

I say this and I'm not even a tank.

By the way 1H/S in PvP routinely beats my ass silly shades of red, no matter the class behind it. Tanks in PvP are beastly.

mazrimtaimxpreub18_ESO

"You say you could 3 man it all without a tank, though, I have 2 manned vet Wayrest without a dps. Could probably repeat that in most other vet dungeons(CoH aside). Does it mean dps are not needed?;)"

DPS are needed specifically by design. One example would be the gargoyle boss in one of the vet dungeons that will crush the whole group if he is not killed quickly enough by causing a cave in. You NEED dps to get by that fight (at least by my understanding). I have yet to run a dungeon where the 3 man I was in NEEDED a tank.

It would be interesting to see how many of the vet dungeons could be 2-manned. Some of the mechanics involved in a few of the boss fights I can think of would be extremely difficult if not impossible.. but it may be an interesting pursuit.

Aeratus

I would think that most of the v1-10 dungeons can be soloed even. You even have people soloing AA trial bosses (see what this guy does: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/nightblade-aa-first-boss-solo-guidebuild/)

2-man might be possible for COH. On the 2nd phase of the last boss, even if it is not possible for one person to break the shield, I think a NB standing in a veil of blades should have enough survivability to res the other person.

Magdalina

Aeratus wrote: »

You say you could 3 man it all without a tank, though, I have 2 manned vet Wayrest without a dps. Could probably repeat that in most other vet dungeons(CoH aside). Does it mean dps are not needed?;)

No, because the healer and tank are also dps.

Off dps, yes, of course. But wasn't one of you also range taunting in CoH, hence making him an off tank?

That aside, I agree tanks need more love. I don't agree they're COMPLETELY un-needed the way things are now, but yes, tanks certainly need more love. We need less boring dps races and more stuff like tanky checks.
An example of smth close enough would be BC hardmode. It's extremely difficult without a good tank. I don't know if it's possible without a tank at all, maybe, everyone's gonna have to CC daedroth nonstop(without killing them) and run around like idiots from those they don't CC. Alternatively, a good tank can keep all 3-4-5 daedroth on him and make this fight a piece of cake for others, I love checking tanks out there. I know maybe 2 tanks who can manage all daedroth there smoothly, they're awesome. I really wish there were more fights in the game to match their tanking skills=)

Pmarsico9

Magdalina wrote: »

Off dps, yes, of course. But wasn't one of you also range taunting in CoH, hence making him an off tank?

No they literally are DPS with Inner Rage or Puncture (with a SnB Loadout) on their bars. They are DPS.