What is a Nightblade?

akray21

The Elder Scrolls series defines a Nightblade as follows:

"Nightblades are spell casters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.

Specialization: Magic
Major Skills: One-handed, Light Armor, Illusion, Destruction, Restoration, Sneak
Secondary Skills: Acrobatics (less fall damage, stamina regenerates faster).
Class Ability: Shadowmaster (All Illusion spells cost 25% less Magicka)."

1. As you see, the first sentence says "Nightblades are spell casters who use their magics to enhance mobility..." So how is it that Sorceress are more mobile in ESO than NB's?

Well...Sorcs have BE, and Boundless Storm, which are both mobility skills. We all know about BE, but BS can be compared to NB's Path of Darkness ability. BS is a 6 second boost for 30% speed (plus increased spell resist, and it does damage to enemies). PoD is a 10 second boost for 50% increased speed (along with small AoE damage)... HOWEVER, if a NB is using this to run in a straight line, the use for a speed boost is maybe 1 second tops, as you run out of the AoE speed burst quite quickly. This makes BS a better mobility tool in getting around the battlefield.

2. The Nightblade definition also says that "Nightblades use their magics to enchance...concealment" and that...."Illusion spells cost 25% less Magicka".

Well... why is it the case that Shadow Cloak is one of the highest magicka cost abilities in the game? It costs more than Sorc BE, and about the same as Boundless Storm.

Proposed Changes:

I do NOT think that sorcs should get a nerf, I am never in favor of nerfs because no one likes to get hit with the nerf hammer.... I do however think that NB's should get a boost to their magical mobility, as this is the first thing stated in the Elder Scrolls definition of a NB. NB's should have the best mobility in combat BAR NONE! (Even while wearing light armor, see definition of NB above)

1. One idea to increase NB mobility is to change (or add, if they ever add morphs) one of the PoD morphs to be an 8 second boost to movement speed (50% speed boost) while NOT breaking stealth (no AoE damage, no heal, just a speed boost). This goes along with the definition of the NB in regards to mobility and stealthy close combat.

2. My other proposal would be to reduce the cost of Dark Cloak, but make is cost more and more when cast back to back to back (just like BE). I think the cost should be cut in half for the first cast, then apply a 25% cost increase on each successive cast.

How else could ZOS make the NB more closely resemble what the NB is meant to be in TES lore? Will we ever see new class abilities or morphs? I want to run a true NB, and feel as if I can not do so as the game stands today.

Stranglehands

What'll really bake your cookie is where the hordes of dragonknights fit into the elder scrolls class system :P

Nestor

You can't take a class description from other games and apply it this one. Class abilities and perks have changed from one game to the next in the series.

However, NB's have a skill to increase speed, Refreshing Path. That gives a boost to movement speed in battle. The also get increased movement speed in Sneak from Class Skills being slotted. So, they have built in mobility increases.

If they give a cost reduction to Cloak, the PvP crowd will howl because their squishy sorcerers will now be easy fodder for the NB's.

Rosveen

akray21 wrote: »

Specialization: Magic
Major Skills: One-handed, Light Armor, Illusion, Destruction, Restoration, Sneak
Secondary Skills: Acrobatics (less fall damage, stamina regenerates faster).
Class Ability: Shadowmaster (All Illusion spells cost 25% less Magicka)."

You realize this skillset is from a mod, right? It is close to the idea of Nightblade in single player TES games, but you can't use a modded ability as an example of nightblade skills in Elder Scrolls lore. Acrobatics doesn't even work like this (it doesn't affect stamina regeneration, nor is a nightblade class skills for that matter - not until Oblivion where it had to be because the number of available skills was much shorter than before).

akray21

Nestor wrote: »

You can't take a class description from other games and apply it this one. Class abilities and perks have changed from one game to the next in the series.

However, NB's have a skill to increase speed, Refreshing Path. That gives a boost to movement speed in battle. The also get increased movement speed in Sneak from Class Skills being slotted. So, they have built in mobility increases.

If they give a cost reduction to Cloak, the PvP crowd will howl because their squishy sorcerers will now be easy fodder for the NB's.

Did you read my full post? I talked about the NB path ability. Its utility as a speed boost is minimal because of the small area...

Aeratus

Akray21, your definition of "Nightblade" is from Morrowind. I also don't know where "shadowmaster" comes from.

However, I think ESO's Nightblade is more closely modeled after Oblivion, and I think the devs did a good job with it. The following is based on stuff I placed in another post.

Class description in TES: Oblivion

"Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting magic to benefit their circumstances."

Everything looks good here.

"Spell...casting magic" - all class skills are spells
-
"Shadow" - NB's shadow tree

"by darkness they move with haste" - path of darkness spell. The distinction is in the term "move with" as opposed to teleports with. Path of darkness fits perfectly because it casts a dark shadow on the ground, and the nightblade moves through it. Too bad it's a useless skill most of the time.

Next, the class specializations in TES Oblivion

"Specialization: Magic"

All class "skills" are spells, and Nightblade in ESO is a mage.

Attributes in TES Oblivion:

"Speed, Willpower"

Speed - Concealed weapon passive, and path of darkness.

Willpower - Magicka flood passive: "Increases Max Magicka 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted."

Skills in TES Oblivion:

Acrobatics
Alteration
Athletics
Blade
Destruction
Light Armor
Restoration

Acrobatics/Athletics - Path of darkness, passive that increases stam regen

Blade - Veiled strike, Impale, Teleport Strike, Assassination tree ultimate (class skills that can be used with any weapon)

Destruction - Strife, Crippling Grasp

Restoration - Strife (Funnel Health), sap essence

Furthermore, in Oblivion, you see the Nightblade carry a potion. That's why we have the catalyst passive (Increases potion effectiveness by 20%).

So IMO, the devs did a good job with the Nightblade class skills in being true to lore. It is the people who want to play NB as a generic MMO rogue that are having issues.

Stranglehands

I always thought they could have made sorcerers more elder-scrollsy by just calling dark magic "alteration" and making it look less daedric. Really though there is nothing in the ESO class system that resembles single player elder scrolls except incidentally because the intentions of the class systems are way different. ESO classes are about forming a group dynamic whereas the single player classes are really more about role-playing than anything else. For instance, my current morrowind character is a scout because I want to be a dirty bushwhacker who hunts people down out in the wilderness if they're unlucky enough to have enemies with money, and makes potions out of mushrooms and cliff racer feathers. My current ESO character is a dragonknight because I want to be the tank

akray21

I am not sure everyone is reading my full post by your responses, and the fact that I was barley able to reread it myself before others started posting.

My main issue boils down the path of darkness being so weak as a speed boost, and the cost of dark cloak being so high. (And the fact that Dark Cloak is still broken).

Aeratus

akray21 wrote: »

I am not sure everyone is reading my full post by your responses, and the fact that I was barley able to reread it myself before others started posting.

My main issue boils down the path of darkness being so weak as a speed boost, and the cost of dark cloak being so high. (And the fact that Dark Cloak is still broken).

That's a matter of skill balance and bugs tho, rather than of the general design.

TES Oblivion says that NBs move with haste, but doesn't say that they have the greatest mobility of all classes.

Also, NBs already move faster in stealth than other classes. This is consistent with NB in Oblivion.

akray21

Aeratus wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I am not sure everyone is reading my full post by your responses, and the fact that I was barley able to reread it myself before others started posting.

My main issue boils down the path of darkness being so weak as a speed boost, and the cost of dark cloak being so high. (And the fact that Dark Cloak is still broken).

That's a matter of skill balance and bugs tho, rather than of the general design.

TES Oblivion says that NBs move with haste, but doesn't say that they have the greatest mobility of all classes.

Also, NBs already move faster in stealth than other classes. This is consistent with NB in Oblivion.

They only move faster in STEALTH if they have concealed weapon slotted. This means they have to give up 1/5th of their bar, and take an inferior morph, and of course be in stealth. Also, it says nothing about being very mobile only in stealth, they should be mobile out of stealth as well.

eNumbra

Aeratus wrote: »

All class "skills" are spells, and Nightblade in ESO is a mage.

Of course by the same logic, all the classes in ESO are mages an-

Well, suddenly all the light armor resto synergies are making sense.

Aeratus

akray21 wrote: »

Also, it says nothing about being very mobile only in stealth, they should be mobile out of stealth as well.

Actually it does. It says "by darkness they move with haste." If "by darkness" doesn't refer to stealth (or at least some shadow-like gimmick like path of darkness), I'm not sure what it refers to.

I agree with you that BE makes sorcs the most mobile class. But then again, BE is just a bizarre skill designed for hyperactive teenageers. So I'm not sure what to think in regards to BE. BE also has no antecedent in previous Elder Scrolls lore.

Evandus

akray21 wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I am not sure everyone is reading my full post by your responses, and the fact that I was barley able to reread it myself before others started posting.

My main issue boils down the path of darkness being so weak as a speed boost, and the cost of dark cloak being so high. (And the fact that Dark Cloak is still broken).

That's a matter of skill balance and bugs tho, rather than of the general design.

TES Oblivion says that NBs move with haste, but doesn't say that they have the greatest mobility of all classes.

Also, NBs already move faster in stealth than other classes. This is consistent with NB in Oblivion.

They only move faster in STEALTH if they have concealed weapon slotted. This means they have to give up 1/5th of their bar, and take an inferior morph, and of course be in stealth. Also, it says nothing about being very mobile only in stealth, they should be mobile out of stealth as well.

Just as my casting types of varying classes have to give up 1/5 of their bar to slot a skill that counters your amazing stealth.

Dragonknights and Templars are the outliers and new additions lorewise as far as I've seen. Now if they take some time correcting known bugs in the class skills instead of adding new mechanics that unbalance the game for other classes (stacking speed bonuses to absurdity) things will improve.

Even at this point however, most Nightblade builds are sporting the highest burst damage in the game. Very competitive if not the highest single target sustained damage as well. Caster variants (go figure as the nightblade is a caster class) do much better overall than those wishing to create a generic sneaky rogue.

Nestor

akray21 wrote: »

Did you read my full post? I talked about the NB path ability. Its utility as a speed boost is minimal because of the small area...

Have you ever used the skill? I get all the movement speed I need to move around the mobs that I am fighting. I don't need the whole dungeon area sped up.

Rosveen

Yes, I think the issues are with ESO balance. Nightblades are otherwise very similar in design to their single player counterparts - but we also have to remember that with only 4 classes, NBs represent the thief archetype in general.

akray21 wrote: »

I do however think that NB's should get a boost to their magical mobility, as this is the first thing stated in the Elder Scrolls definition of a NB. NB's should have the best mobility in combat BAR NONE!

See, this is a problem. The description of a nightblade states they have great mobility in shadows; but once out of them, what then? It is never stated that they're the fastest under any circumstances.

Most other stealth-based classes have mentions of speed and agility, especially in stealth - surprisingly, even witchhunters do ("Swift on foot, and clever with spells, they use distance as their ally. Slower adversaries are fodder for their arrows.")

akray21

Nestor wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Did you read my full post? I talked about the NB path ability. Its utility as a speed boost is minimal because of the small area...

Have you ever used the skill? I get all the movement speed I need to move around the mobs that I am fighting. I don't need the whole dungeon area sped up.

My OP simply requested a different morph that is simply a speed boost, with no AoE damage OR heal... Not sure why that is absurd

eNumbra

Evandus wrote: »

Dragonknights and Templars are the outliers and new additions lorewise as far as I've seen. Now if they take some time correcting known bugs in the class skills instead of adding new mechanics that unbalance the game for other classes (stacking speed bonuses to absurdity) things will improve.

Templar comes pretty close to Crusader with Destruction, Restoration and Heavy Armor(char creation screen shows the Templar intent to be in Heavy Armor). There's also the obvious connection between the names of the two classes.

Evandus

eNumbra wrote: »

Evandus wrote: »

Dragonknights and Templars are the outliers and new additions lorewise as far as I've seen. Now if they take some time correcting known bugs in the class skills instead of adding new mechanics that unbalance the game for other classes (stacking speed bonuses to absurdity) things will improve.

Templar comes pretty close to Crusader with Destruction, Restoration and Heavy Armor(char creation screen shows the Templar intent to be in Heavy Armor). There's also the obvious connection between the names of the two classes.

I had forgotten about the Crusader. Good point there, I stand corrected on that.

Athas24

from all of this I would have to say the conceal ability cost in magicka is really high and should cost less so it can be used more often without putting a TON of points into Magicka.

Varicite

Athas24 wrote: »

from all of this I would have to say the conceal ability cost in magicka is really high and should cost less so it can be used more often without putting a TON of points into Magicka.

It is, however, similar in cost to other escape abilities in the game.

They all cost a ton. : c

MercyKilling

Well, to answer the question posed by the thread title.....

would not a night blade be a blade that strikes at night?


Omigawd, it's

!!!!111!111eleventyone!!11

Yusuf

I like your idea with the path of darkness morph!
I really wich some abilities had more than 2 morphchoices and if it was something like "Shroud of Darkness", Boundless Storm made out of dark magic i'd totally choose that over every other morph.

butterfly442

mule or a crafter.

that is all

tordr86b16_ESO

Nestor wrote: »

The also get increased movement speed in Sneak from Class Skills being slotted. So, they have built in mobility increases.

If they give a cost reduction to Cloak, the PvP crowd will howl because their squishy sorcerers will now be easy fodder for the NB's.

Concealed Blades is only used by melee builds, which suck in PvP unless you go for a class skill only build, which is not everyone's cup of tea. The NB class is strongest when you can stay hidden and do hit and runs, Dark Cloak is not helping much atm in PvP because you get detected instantly and get whacked because it gets turned off at the slightest damage done to you. In a stamina build 7/7 medium, Dark Cloak only serves to gobble up your mana and gives almost nothing in return.

Dark Cloak and it's morps needs a serious revamp. It is totally useless for escape and or repositioning mechanism due to how fickle it's been designed. It either needs 100% dodge for the duration of the cloak so that you can escape in a tight situation when damage is flying everywhere, or they can increase the duration to 30 seconds, give you complete invisibility, with a 15% chance to break stealth at damage and decrease the magicka cost.

akray21

Yusuf wrote: »

I like your idea with the path of darkness morph!
I really wich some abilities had more than 2 morphchoices and if it was something like "Shroud of Darkness", Boundless Storm made out of dark magic i'd totally choose that over every other morph.

Thank you! I think that my idea would be perfectly balanced... Longer than boundless storm (by only 2 seconds), and it's faster and doesn't break stealth instead of giving armor and spell resist... Balanced. I hope we get some ability changes or morphs in the next big patch.

scath

As a returning player that didn't get much game time in previously, I rerolled as a Nightblade and am pretty underwhelmed so far (only 36 atm). The big draw to the Nightblade for me was the chance to play a rogue with a bit of magic to augment it's abilities, and I loved the idea of being a mobile magical/shadowy skirmisher, but I quickly found that playing a caster variant was the less frustrating route.

I know people in this thread and several others I've checked out on reddit and elsewhere have called the Nightblade a mage class, but the character screen shows you starting in medium armor. (I know that anyone can go any route with armor and skills, but it almost seems like false advertising that it's the weaker option). I also note that someone above mentioned that they're not meant to be another "generic rogue".. but the caster version that I'm playing, as well as the resto staff meta I've seen that's desired to do max dps seems pretty dang generic to me..

Also, the class description in character creation states:

Nightblades are adventurers and opportunists with a gift for getting in and out of trouble. Relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed, Nightblades thrive on conflict and misfortune, trusting to their luck and cunning to survive.

That implied mobility to me, such that I'd expected to be rather good at actually getting into and out of trouble with class skills since the dev's were inclined to type it out to describe the class. The OP's post resonates with me just for that (although I concede that level 36 isn't being all I can be as a NB yet, and I have plenty of room to improve). I will admit I'm rather good at getting into trouble like the description states, and that I do have to trust to my luck to survive, because my class skills are rather lackluster (and in many cases, still a bit broken).

I'm sticking with NB for now, not only because I'm clearly a glutton for punishment, but also in the hopes that it does come around with the stamina improvements in the future, and from feedback from players being heard by the dev's and action being taken based on it.

I don't really feel qualified to say what should and shouldn't be balance and skill wise though. Just thought I'd leave some feedback here FWIW, in addition to what I've left with the /feedback command in game.


TL:DR - I'm leveling a NB and find it lackluster and generic as a caster, but the "generic rogue" doesn't have the mobility or feel of what I thought the dev's were describing a NB to be.

Zhoyzu

I like your train of thought. They need to fix dark cloak before they go anywhere else with it or itll just never function anyways.

They really shouldn't be getting rid of Night silence and dark stalker stacking. especially on a class that relies heavily on mobility. Dks are perma roots, sorcs are AoE kings and templars are impossible to take down cause tanky as ***.

night blades either win in the first few seconds or die trying and have nothing other then mobility going for them. When the thing that matters most is the mobility. Class still needs some serious work.

lets not get started about werewolf lol.......