Keep Imbalances in Cyrodiil, why it sucks to be Daggerfall :)

Lfehova

So some people were complaining in zone why it's so hard for us hold our own keeps and I'd like to mention some map imbalances in the keeps.

Glademist - you can siege inner and outer from the mine, it *** blows to try to defend because they can keep both down with one dude on the hill

Aleswell - you can siege inner and outer from mine safely from on top of the walls, and also at farm

Ash - our most defensible keep, the only thing you can do is siege the outer from mine tower.

What about EP?

Arrius - is super defensible with no good place to siege but from the mine, where everything is flat and you can siege defend with your own

Chalman - the only decent side to siege is mine side, you're crazy if you're gonna try to siege from farm or lumber, and mine side has very little room for siege

BRK - probably ep's weakest keep because of the open space around it and space for siege

What about AD?

Fargyle - this place is a blood bath, both farm and lumber, the two sides with the postern walls, suck. Super low ground, lots of bumps to ruin siege placement. Only good spot is from behind on the hill, but then where do you place the forward camp for reinforcements? Super far away from the breach? If you fail the push, the wall will be at 100%

Roebeck - this is pretty decent, as there's a lot of flat ground, but that's about it

Alessia - god this place sucks too, so many bumps around it to make it crappy to put siege down, coupled with the dips in terrain and the hills, making the only smart side to siege from the farm. But it's a long run from the farm down to the breach, and you can only hit the outer

So after analyzing the three forward keeps of the three alliances, I'd say AD has slightly better keeps than EP, but DC has a heavy disadvantage because 2 of their keeps can have their inner and outer siege from the hills. Wtf zenimax? Why can't we siege the ad/EP inner and outer from their keeps perspective hills? I don't see how the balancing team never took this into account. ZoS, I know the spots where you can hit inner and outer from, and I'd be happy to give your developers pinpoint coordinates so that they can add a "bump" there to prevent siege from hitting the inner on a hill. It's bs that our enemies can safely siege our inner from a resource..

I hope some unbiased ad/EP can agree, since I'm sure they love sieging glade from mine, or aleswell from mine/farm

Glantris

i was thinking about this the other day. they really need to revise some of the terrain around keeps. it wouldn't be hard, either, just to level the playing field for each faction... some keeps are just plain impossible to take compared to others.

though i'm not sure about alessia - sieging from the mine side is pretty easy. lots of flat ground and those little walls can be used to screw with wipe groups. the farm is a double edged sword, though.

Lfehova

Glantris wrote: »

i was thinking about this the other day. they really need to revise some of the terrain around keeps. it wouldn't be hard, either, just to level the playing field for each faction... some keeps are just plain impossible to take compared to others.

though i'm not sure about alessia - sieging from the mine side is pretty easy. lots of flat ground and those little walls can be used to screw with wipe groups. the farm is a double edged sword, though.

Yeah that's true, I think the AD and EP keeps are pretty good.

But wtf is up with glade and ales. Why did they make it so you can hit inner from the resources? How does that make sense when you can't do that with the AD/EP main keeps?

this is my Daggerfall sad face for imbalance

P.s. Great fun last night, I know aeren didn't see you, but I did, since you know, I'm always trying to kill you and Winnie first. Damn Templars

Agrippa_Invisus

Let me tell you the story of Kingscrest Keep....

But more seriously, the keeps we (EP) have that are easily defensible (imo, in order):

Farragut Keep -- Our best, most easily defended keeps. Zig zag walls with limited places to knock down and open killing grounds around it.

BRK -- Similar outer killing grounds that siege can't hide in as Farragut, but square walls.

Chalman Keep -- The mine's an issue, but the rest of the confines are tight and hard to set up max siege. The eastern courtyard is essentially unsiegable except from the wall as there is no space to the east inside the courtyard at all. This forces siege into the western courtyard and keeps the approach of reinforcements clear most times.

Arrius Keep -- Again the mine is an issue, but the courtyard has lots of small walls to hide teams and siege operators behind. The north and west walls are easily defended and sieging LM side is asking to get siege bombed as siege from the wall can reach any enemy siege in range to hit the keep due to the keep having elevation over that resource.

Drakelowe Keep -- Has a lot of the same benefits as Fort Ash. Resources aren't that close, it has the steps on the sides that make for good defensive positions. It suffers from distance when it lights up. We have to be very vigilant with Drake.

Kingscrest Keep -- A dumpster. This keep sucks to defend as that Lumbermill can be held for hours by a good team. It essentially has no north wall and that's awful.

I did get to defend KC from an attack from the south the other day. It was a nice change of pace and KC performed admirably then. We had to keep a group at the LM the whole time to prevent a back capture.

thelordoffelines

EP has the worst keeps solely because of kingscrest. Its a farm there. Every day.

Lfehova

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Let me tell you the story of Kingscrest Keep....

Oh kingscrest is horrid, no doubt. But it's a borderline useless keep if you can hold arrius.

The priority keeps are the gate lock keeps, glade/arrius/fargyle and the emp keeps.

You know the difficult of defending kingscrest, can you imagine defending Chalman/BRK/arrius like that?

Btw, you can't hit inner at kingscrest, so it's STILL not as bad as glade/ales

Agrippa_Invisus

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Let me tell you the story of Kingscrest Keep....

Oh kingscrest is horrid, no doubt. But it's a borderline useless keep if you can hold arrius.

The priority keeps are the gate lock keeps, glade/arrius/fargyle and the emp keeps.

You know the difficult of defending kingscrest, can you imagine defending Chalman/BRK/arrius like that?

Btw, you can't hit inner at kingscrest, so it's STILL not as bad as glade/ales

I ninja edit'ed you, Hova, fyi.

And yeah, there are several times I've taken Glademist and lost it due to the fact that I couldn't keep the inner up and a guild team bumrushed the flags. In those situations, we held the courtyard just fine, but sheer numbers flipped the flags. They'd never be able to get the inner down on us in situations like Arrius or Faregyl, if we were defending that keep against similar strategies.

Glademist is a challenge to deal with.

Warden is fun to hold. Very good keep. It's like Farragut. I wish we had Rayles/BB instead of KC though. We can't safely keep scrolls in KC.

Lfehova

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Let me tell you the story of Kingscrest Keep....

Oh kingscrest is horrid, no doubt. But it's a borderline useless keep if you can hold arrius.

The priority keeps are the gate lock keeps, glade/arrius/fargyle and the emp keeps.

You know the difficult of defending kingscrest, can you imagine defending Chalman/BRK/arrius like that?

Btw, you can't hit inner at kingscrest, so it's STILL not as bad as glade/ales

I ninja edit'ed you, Hova, fyi.

And yeah, there are several times I've taken Glademist and lost it due to the fact that I couldn't keep the inner up and a guild team bumrushed the flags. In those situations, we held the courtyard just fine, but sheer numbers flipped the flags. They'd never be able to get the inner down on us in situations like Arrius or Faregyl, if we were defending that keep against similar strategies.

Glademist is a challenge to deal with.

Warden is fun to hold. Very good keep. It's like Farragut. I wish we had Rayles/BB instead of KC though. We can't safely keep scrolls in KC.

But I still prefer KC to both glade/ales. Can you imagine trying to defend Chalman/arrius like we have to deal with at glade/ales? It's messed up lol and a horrible imbalance.

Those ad keeps though. Blackboot is a fortress, and bloodmayne isn't bad either. AD.. I would trade glade and ales for ANY of the AD keeps' terrain.

Agrippa_Invisus

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Let me tell you the story of Kingscrest Keep....

Oh kingscrest is horrid, no doubt. But it's a borderline useless keep if you can hold arrius.

The priority keeps are the gate lock keeps, glade/arrius/fargyle and the emp keeps.

You know the difficult of defending kingscrest, can you imagine defending Chalman/BRK/arrius like that?

Btw, you can't hit inner at kingscrest, so it's STILL not as bad as glade/ales

I ninja edit'ed you, Hova, fyi.

And yeah, there are several times I've taken Glademist and lost it due to the fact that I couldn't keep the inner up and a guild team bumrushed the flags. In those situations, we held the courtyard just fine, but sheer numbers flipped the flags. They'd never be able to get the inner down on us in situations like Arrius or Faregyl, if we were defending that keep against similar strategies.

Glademist is a challenge to deal with.

Warden is fun to hold. Very good keep. It's like Farragut. I wish we had Rayles/BB instead of KC though. We can't safely keep scrolls in KC.

But I still prefer KC to both glade/ales. Can you imagine trying to defend Chalman/arrius like we have to deal with at glade/ales? It's messed up lol and a horrible imbalance.

Those ad keeps though. Blackboot is a fortress, and bloodmayne isn't bad either. AD.. I would trade glade and ales for ANY of the AD keeps' terrain.

AD has the best collection of six keeps out of the three factions, IMO.

Faregyl's 'weak point' is the back side towards the elevated rocks. But besiegers have no resource node that direction and are easily cleaned out with an organized push. Mill side, while the resource is elevated and you can get one siege on a wall from there, the rest of the area is sloping and you can't put up a lot of siege easily. The front door is nothing but flag ground and the farm side is the best siege side, but with a recessed resource.

BB/BM are easily defended and have no easily hidden spots for siege. The worst of the two being BM with the small rise around the mine for siege.

Roebeck is like BRK/Ash -- lots of killing grounds with the added benefit of cottages everywhere eating up siege space.

Alessia has the farm weak point, but you can't hit inner from it. The front door is a fortress as it's got the slope leading up from the bridge and is a pain in the ass to siege from. Add in all the EP farming that happens there and it's never unmanned.

Lfehova

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Let me tell you the story of Kingscrest Keep....

Oh kingscrest is horrid, no doubt. But it's a borderline useless keep if you can hold arrius.

The priority keeps are the gate lock keeps, glade/arrius/fargyle and the emp keeps.

You know the difficult of defending kingscrest, can you imagine defending Chalman/BRK/arrius like that?

Btw, you can't hit inner at kingscrest, so it's STILL not as bad as glade/ales

I ninja edit'ed you, Hova, fyi.

And yeah, there are several times I've taken Glademist and lost it due to the fact that I couldn't keep the inner up and a guild team bumrushed the flags. In those situations, we held the courtyard just fine, but sheer numbers flipped the flags. They'd never be able to get the inner down on us in situations like Arrius or Faregyl, if we were defending that keep against similar strategies.

Glademist is a challenge to deal with.

Warden is fun to hold. Very good keep. It's like Farragut. I wish we had Rayles/BB instead of KC though. We can't safely keep scrolls in KC.

But I still prefer KC to both glade/ales. Can you imagine trying to defend Chalman/arrius like we have to deal with at glade/ales? It's messed up lol and a horrible imbalance.

Those ad keeps though. Blackboot is a fortress, and bloodmayne isn't bad either. AD.. I would trade glade and ales for ANY of the AD keeps' terrain.

AD has the best collection of six keeps out of the three factions, IMO.

Faregyl's 'weak point' is the back side towards the elevated rocks. But besiegers have no resource node that direction and are easily cleaned out with an organized push. Mill side, while the resource is elevated and you can get one siege on a wall from there, the rest of the area is sloping and you can't put up a lot of siege easily. The front door is nothing but flag ground and the farm side is the best siege side, but with a recessed resource.

BB/BM are easily defended and have no easily hidden spots for siege. The worst of the two being BM with the small rise around the mine for siege.

Roebeck is like BRK/Ash -- lots of killing grounds with the added benefit of cottages everywhere eating up siege space.

Alessia has the farm weak point, but you can't hit inner from it. The front door is a fortress as it's got the slope leading up from the bridge and is a pain in the ass to siege from. Add in all the EP farming that happens there and it's never unmanned.

Yep. That was my analysis as well. AD has the best. EP a relatively close second. And DC is totally shafted lol

Agrippa_Invisus

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Let me tell you the story of Kingscrest Keep....

Oh kingscrest is horrid, no doubt. But it's a borderline useless keep if you can hold arrius.

The priority keeps are the gate lock keeps, glade/arrius/fargyle and the emp keeps.

You know the difficult of defending kingscrest, can you imagine defending Chalman/BRK/arrius like that?

Btw, you can't hit inner at kingscrest, so it's STILL not as bad as glade/ales

I ninja edit'ed you, Hova, fyi.

And yeah, there are several times I've taken Glademist and lost it due to the fact that I couldn't keep the inner up and a guild team bumrushed the flags. In those situations, we held the courtyard just fine, but sheer numbers flipped the flags. They'd never be able to get the inner down on us in situations like Arrius or Faregyl, if we were defending that keep against similar strategies.

Glademist is a challenge to deal with.

Warden is fun to hold. Very good keep. It's like Farragut. I wish we had Rayles/BB instead of KC though. We can't safely keep scrolls in KC.

But I still prefer KC to both glade/ales. Can you imagine trying to defend Chalman/arrius like we have to deal with at glade/ales? It's messed up lol and a horrible imbalance.

Those ad keeps though. Blackboot is a fortress, and bloodmayne isn't bad either. AD.. I would trade glade and ales for ANY of the AD keeps' terrain.

AD has the best collection of six keeps out of the three factions, IMO.

Faregyl's 'weak point' is the back side towards the elevated rocks. But besiegers have no resource node that direction and are easily cleaned out with an organized push. Mill side, while the resource is elevated and you can get one siege on a wall from there, the rest of the area is sloping and you can't put up a lot of siege easily. The front door is nothing but flag ground and the farm side is the best siege side, but with a recessed resource.

BB/BM are easily defended and have no easily hidden spots for siege. The worst of the two being BM with the small rise around the mine for siege.

Roebeck is like BRK/Ash -- lots of killing grounds with the added benefit of cottages everywhere eating up siege space.

Alessia has the farm weak point, but you can't hit inner from it. The front door is a fortress as it's got the slope leading up from the bridge and is a pain in the ass to siege from. Add in all the EP farming that happens there and it's never unmanned.

Yep. That was my analysis as well. AD has the best. EP a relatively close second. And DC is totally shafted lol

You do get Warden and Ash. (and Dragon's not bad either -- just distant).

Glade and Aleswell do kinda suck.

Lfehova

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Let me tell you the story of Kingscrest Keep....

Oh kingscrest is horrid, no doubt. But it's a borderline useless keep if you can hold arrius.

The priority keeps are the gate lock keeps, glade/arrius/fargyle and the emp keeps.

You know the difficult of defending kingscrest, can you imagine defending Chalman/BRK/arrius like that?

Btw, you can't hit inner at kingscrest, so it's STILL not as bad as glade/ales

I ninja edit'ed you, Hova, fyi.

And yeah, there are several times I've taken Glademist and lost it due to the fact that I couldn't keep the inner up and a guild team bumrushed the flags. In those situations, we held the courtyard just fine, but sheer numbers flipped the flags. They'd never be able to get the inner down on us in situations like Arrius or Faregyl, if we were defending that keep against similar strategies.

Glademist is a challenge to deal with.

Warden is fun to hold. Very good keep. It's like Farragut. I wish we had Rayles/BB instead of KC though. We can't safely keep scrolls in KC.

But I still prefer KC to both glade/ales. Can you imagine trying to defend Chalman/arrius like we have to deal with at glade/ales? It's messed up lol and a horrible imbalance.

Those ad keeps though. Blackboot is a fortress, and bloodmayne isn't bad either. AD.. I would trade glade and ales for ANY of the AD keeps' terrain.

AD has the best collection of six keeps out of the three factions, IMO.

Faregyl's 'weak point' is the back side towards the elevated rocks. But besiegers have no resource node that direction and are easily cleaned out with an organized push. Mill side, while the resource is elevated and you can get one siege on a wall from there, the rest of the area is sloping and you can't put up a lot of siege easily. The front door is nothing but flag ground and the farm side is the best siege side, but with a recessed resource.

BB/BM are easily defended and have no easily hidden spots for siege. The worst of the two being BM with the small rise around the mine for siege.

Roebeck is like BRK/Ash -- lots of killing grounds with the added benefit of cottages everywhere eating up siege space.

Alessia has the farm weak point, but you can't hit inner from it. The front door is a fortress as it's got the slope leading up from the bridge and is a pain in the ass to siege from. Add in all the EP farming that happens there and it's never unmanned.

Yep. That was my analysis as well. AD has the best. EP a relatively close second. And DC is totally shafted lol

You do get Warden and Ash. (and Dragon's not bad either -- just distant).

Glade and Aleswell do kinda suck.

They are the worst lol.

IKilled007

Glade is DC's most strategically important keep for the reason Hova mentioned, and it's a disaster. It's Dien Bien Phu all over again, and DC are the French.

Vorpan

Glade would be easier to defend if everyone stopped rushing up that hill of death, and instead sent a group around to come up from behind attackers.

IKilled007

Vorpan wrote: »

Glade would be easier to defend if everyone stopped rushing up that hill of death, and instead sent a group around to come up from behind attackers.

Any keep which has a tower looking down on it, capable of hitting both outer and inner walls, is very difficult to defend.

Aoe_Barbecue

The only good thing about Glade is that DC turtles hard to protect it and it's not terribly difficult to retake for the same reasons it's not terribly difficult to capture.

Agrippa_Invisus

Aoe_Barbecue wrote: »

The only good thing about Glade is that DC turtles hard to protect it and it's not terribly difficult to retake for the same reasons it's not terribly difficult to capture.

OTOH, the few times I've gotten to do a full defense of Ash has been a joy. That keep's a lot of fun to defend.

DC keeps really swing back and forth wildly in quality.

Lfehova

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Aoe_Barbecue wrote: »

The only good thing about Glade is that DC turtles hard to protect it and it's not terribly difficult to retake for the same reasons it's not terribly difficult to capture.

OTOH, the few times I've gotten to do a full defense of Ash has been a joy. That keep's a lot of fun to defend.

DC keeps really swing back and forth wildly in quality.

Lol that's cause they suck to defend so people keep assaulting it and flipping it.

In other news, it seems the trash talk and berating on our little chillrend NA thread caused it to be closed. That was some funny sh't I just read

Pixysticks

Inb4 I'm banned for trolling again when Chillrend thread re-opens.

Lfehova

Pixysticks wrote: »

Inb4 I'm banned for trolling again when Chillrend thread re-opens.

Honestly if the EP Aussies moved to thorn, that's a blessing and it was No Mercy's intention when we moved here. To chase the EP back to thorn. Let the EP and AD Aussies fight on their own campaign. Maybe send EG over there as well. So DC has a solid population presence.

Leave the smaller guilds here on chill so we can do battle.

Honestly, I'm thinking we should just have a campaign where everyone has their home keeps and emp keeps, and we just have all the organized guilds fight over resources or open field for fun.

Sick of all the running around trying to take keeps or defend them. Taking a keep is boringggggg

Edit: I just want blooddd

Pixysticks

Lfehova wrote: »

Honestly, I'm thinking we should just have a campaign where everyone has their home keeps and emp keeps, and we just have all the organized guilds fight over resources or open field for fun.

Yes.

Agrippa_Invisus

Cyrodiil needs a version of Emain Macha (if you get the DAoC reference).

A place where everyone goes to find everyone else and fight without giving two squirts over the map.

Sharee

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Cyrodiil needs a version of Emain Macha (if you get the DAoC reference).

A place where everyone goes to find everyone else and fight without giving two squirts over the map.

Emain sucked for hibs. But i didn't mind, i was an alb

(and yea, something should be done to cyrodiil topology. Whoever thought it would be wise to build the most important DC keep in a hole surrounded by hills should be forced to repair the walls until the end of his days)

Nala_

IKilled007 wrote: »

Vorpan wrote: »

Glade would be easier to defend if everyone stopped rushing up that hill of death, and instead sent a group around to come up from behind attackers.

Any keep which has a tower looking down on it, capable of hitting both outer and inner walls, is very difficult to defend.

alessia has the same exact thing farmside but everyone says that keep is impenetrable. you can hit the inner and the outer from farm tower.

people just dont know how to take advantage of all the terrain spots yet, and like to cry, so a little of both

Agrippa_Invisus

Sharee wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Cyrodiil needs a version of Emain Macha (if you get the DAoC reference).

A place where everyone goes to find everyone else and fight without giving two squirts over the map.

Emain sucked for hibs. But i didn't mind, i was an alb

(and yea, something should be done to cyrodiil topology. Whoever thought it would be wise to build the most important DC keep in a hole surrounded by hills should be forced to repair the walls until the end of his days)

There was one time on Bloodthorn we knocked down every wall, inner and outer, and door of Aleswell and then just left it.

Just to cheese the DC off.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Yes, AD, by far, has the easiest keeps to defend. I really wish there was an Alessia bridge between more keeps on the map. It would make things very interesting.

Mephilis78

Glantris wrote: »

i was thinking about this the other day. they really need to revise some of the terrain around keeps. it wouldn't be hard, either, just to level the playing field for each faction... some keeps are just plain impossible to take compared to others.

though i'm not sure about alessia - sieging from the mine side is pretty easy. lots of flat ground and those little walls can be used to screw with wipe groups. the farm is a double edged sword, though.

I'd rather they didn't change the terrain, and instead change the design of the keeps. This would fix two problems at once; the indefensible problem. and the monotonous nature of keeps in pvp.

Perhaps they need to make higher outer walls, or change the shape of the outer walls so that they block the projectiles. Even just rotating the outer keep wall a little could make it so that the vulnerable inner wall is blocked by a permanent part of the outer wall, such as a corner.

QuebraRegra

DAGGERFALL 4 LIFE... but yeah GLADE

Prince_of_all_Pugs

you can str8 up deploy 40 siege on aleswell. because of the height factor of the resources. You can literally place like 20 siege on farm side/mineside and then 20 more on the wall, its so CHEESY, i hate DC with a passion and i think this is unfair.

Vilestride

Damn, just an old bumped thread. Thought Hova might be back in the mix.

gabriebe

Also, the distance to run from Glade to Ash compared to running from Arrius to BRK is a complete joke. I'm pretty sure I can flame reach someone at BRK from Arrius.

And EP usually has an easier time accessing BRK from Drakelow because it's also a homekeep, while DC has a harder time keeping up that link to Ash because Brindle is AD's.

Swimming at Rayles also sucks.