Traits and Real Time Research

Phantax

I've noticed quite a few complaints on the PTS forum regarding the new 9th trait and the amount of research time it takes to learn it (apparently 51 days) Now I understand why some think this is excessive, but really it isn't that bad.
EVE online has used real time researching/training for years and it does add a nice sense of longevity and achievement to the game. (some of their skills can take over 100 days to master)
Zenimax obviously are thinking ahead to a time when we will be getting newer, upgraded gear (probably requiring a 9th trait)
They have always said that crafted gear will be a good as any drops and I'm glad to see they are at least not handing the ability out to anybody as a quick fix !
(they may always add another passive to speed things up a few % more)

As a big fan of the crafting in any MMO I can honestly say I think most people will get more from this extended research time (in ways of accomplishment) than they will lose by waiting a few days longer !

dharbert

The training time isn't that bad at all. I got to the point in EVE where a single skill was taking several months to learn.

You can learn every trait, for every weapon and armor, on a single character, in 306 days in ESO. Another 51 days isn't going to hurt anyone.

AlexDougherty

Umm, using another game to justify what's happening in this game. Sorry, it won't wash.

51 days for a trait, even if you research three items at a time that's 255 days to get the ninth trait on everything. 255 days that's nearly nine months, nine months on researching.

That's excessive.

255 days is 14 items in blacksmithing and clothing divided by 3 (because you can research three items at a time), which rounds up to 5(because you have one spare research left over).
5 times 51days is 255days.

Emperor

Agreed.

I'm tired of people complaining because they actually have to work towards an achievement. It's not really an accomplishment if everyone can get it instantly. It just becomes more junk.

Someone actually told me they are shortening research times soon which I hope isn't true. A master crafter (that has all traits researched) should be an uncommon thing. That person should feel accomplished that they spent the time and effort to become a master crafter. It shouldn't just be another pointless achievement that everyone already has.

dharbert

I also hope they don't shorten the research times. There aren't many 8-trait crafters, and there will be even fewer 9-trait crafters.

I am learning every trait for every type of weapon and armor on my main. I'm at 65% right now. I will definitely be in the very few who can craft 8-trait for everything on a single toon.

butterfly442

Emperor wrote: »

Agreed.

I'm tired of people complaining because they actually have to work towards an achievement. It's not really an accomplishment if everyone can get it instantly. It just becomes more junk.

Someone actually told me they are shortening research times soon which I hope isn't true. A master crafter (that has all traits researched) should be an uncommon thing. That person should feel accomplished that they spent the time and effort to become a master crafter. It shouldn't just be another pointless achievement that everyone already has.

"But its a talking dog!" Quoted from Up.

"But its a freaking game!" What everyone should be saying.

Admittedly you only click a button and forget about it. Not like we have to log in every day and click click click... but, 51 days for anything in a game sounds like work.

eNumbra

Emperor wrote: »

I'm tired of people complaining because they actually have to work towards.

Click button.
Log in 2 months later.
Click button.

Such hard work, master craftsman skill excellence number 1.


Leave it at the thirty days it hits at the 8th trait. That's more than enough considering you'll need it on multiple pieces.

AlexDougherty

eNumbra wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

I'm tired of people complaining because they actually have to work towards.

Click button.
Log in 2 months later.
Click button.

Such hard work, master craftsman skill excellence number 1.


Leave it at the thirty days it hits at the 8th trait. That's more than enough considering you'll need it on multiple pieces.

Exactly, It's not that it's 51 days, it's that it's 51 days per piece.

30 days is more than enough.

Emperor

eNumbra wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

I'm tired of people complaining because they actually have to work towards.

Click button.
Log in 2 months later.
Click button.

Such hard work, master craftsman skill excellence number 1.


Leave it at the thirty days it hits at the 8th trait. That's more than enough considering you'll need it on multiple pieces.

... It obviously takes work in a different way than hard labor since it's a computer game...

Let me spell it out for you. There is a reason there is a small population of players that have all the traits researched. It's because most players don't want to be bothered with keeping track of research times, getting the items required to research, waiting the long time it takes to research, etc.

If it was easy and the research times were significantly lowered then it wouldn't be considered work or an achievement anymore and most players would be "master crafters".

eNumbra

Because 30 days is "easy" and 51 is "hard".
No.

kieso

Time gating is fun, wooooooooooo....

....

dharbert

Emperor wrote: »

Let me spell it out for you. There is a reason there is a small population of players that have all the traits researched. It's because most players don't want to be bothered with keeping track of research times, getting the items required to research, waiting the long time it takes to research, etc.

If it was easy and the research times were significantly lowered then it wouldn't be considered work or an achievement anymore and most players would be "master crafters".

This exactly. Some players want everything handed to them with minimal effort.

AlnilamE

You are assuming you will find one of each item with the new trait right off the bat. Isn't it supposed to be pretty rare?

I'm still working on my 7th and 8th trait researches on most of my stuff.

Also, I had heard you could spend a skill point in research to bring the 51 days down to 30. Was that scrapped?

Stonesthrow

Hoping they leave research times alone as well. Like feeling like I earned the ability to craft anything I want and to help people with their research.

Wood - 8/8
Metal armor - 8/8
Cloth armor - 8/8
Metal weapons - All 5/8 some higher
Leather Armor - All 5/8 some higher

Bring on #9 I say!

Pseudonym

They should all be instant, free and crafts shouldn't cost skills points or materials. We should all be given everything whenever we ask for it, because that's how this entitled generation of gamers want it.

Someone mentioned earlier that just because EVE did it right, that doesn't mean to say it will work here. I couldn't disagree more; for crafting to have any real meaning, you need to be able to stand out from the crowd. In years to come I imagine there will only be a handful of people who can craft you a 14 trait item; and you'd need to visit a range of people to create an entire set.

I hope they carry on the way they are.

Emperor

eNumbra wrote: »

Because 30 days is "easy" and 51 is "hard".
No.

Please consider using your brain young one. If all research times were significantly lowered then there would be no 30 day and 51 day research times. It would turn into 3 day and 5 day research times for the 9th research trait which pretty much takes away all feeling of accomplishment.

However, if the research times were capped at a max time of 30 days for research traits after the 8th one then I wouldn't have a problem with that. It would still be quite the accomplishment.

AlexDougherty

dharbert wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

Let me spell it out for you. There is a reason there is a small population of players that have all the traits researched. It's because most players don't want to be bothered with keeping track of research times, getting the items required to research, waiting the long time it takes to research, etc.

If it was easy and the research times were significantly lowered then it wouldn't be considered work or an achievement anymore and most players would be "master crafters".

This exactly. Some players want everything handed to them with minimal effort.

Not quite, I don't mind doing the research, I wouldn't mind if we had to actually do it manually (in game not literally, I'm not going to learn blacksmithing in real life).

What I object to is the degree of time for this last trait, 51 days per item, means 255 days to learn it on all my Blacksmithing or clothing items. Nearly nine months for it.

Armitas

We had a discussion on this a week ago and I thought I read that there would be an increase to the crafting profession that includes an extra point into the craft research timer reduction passive. I think they said it would reduce it to ~30days.

Is this not the case, or did I misunderstand that?

Rosveen

Don't the research perks have 4 tiers now? With the last one limiting research time to 30 days?

Nestor

I have one crafter that does Clothing and Woodworking. She has 5 traits in everything is running through the 6th Trait now. She is also carrying around more than 40 items to be researched. At this level, finding the specific items gets more and more difficult, so she has to carry them. And, will continue to carry these items in a diminishing rate for the next 45 days.

Now I have to grab another 16 items, and hold those for 9 more months to finish up those traits. This does not include my Blacksmither who is working on the 6th traits currently, so has to do the same thing for 7 and 8. He has about 20 items, and that is not all the traits I need to research.

No way am I going to chase a 9th trait, especially as the 8 Trait sets make me question the viability of completing the research grid as it stands now. I will probably stop at 6 Traits for all lines and not even bother with 7 and 8, much less 9.

Stonesthrow

Nestor wrote: »

I have one crafter that does Clothing and Woodworking. She has 5 traits in everything is running through the 6th Trait now. She is also carrying around more than 40 items to be researched. At this level, finding the specific items gets more and more difficult, so she has to carry them. And, will continue to carry these items in a diminishing rate for the next 45 days.

Now I have to grab another 16 items, and hold those for 9 more months to finish up those traits. This does not include my Blacksmither who is working on the 6th traits currently, so has to do the same thing for 7 and 8. He has about 20 items, and that is not all the traits I need to research.

No way am I going to chase a 9th trait, especially as the 8 Trait sets make me question the viability of completing the research grid as it stands now. I will probably stop at 6 Traits for all lines and not even bother with 7 and 8, much less 9.

Learn the ones your Main needs on your alts, or mules, at 6 hours a trait then just make the one(s) you know you will need next and throw them in your bank.

Inventory problem solved and you can also now create those items to help out a guildee on their research.

Or… mail those items to a friend marked return, have them return the mail and keep them out of your hair for 30 days at a time.

Pseudonym

AlexDougherty wrote: »

dharbert wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

Let me spell it out for you. There is a reason there is a small population of players that have all the traits researched. It's because most players don't want to be bothered with keeping track of research times, getting the items required to research, waiting the long time it takes to research, etc.

If it was easy and the research times were significantly lowered then it wouldn't be considered work or an achievement anymore and most players would be "master crafters".

This exactly. Some players want everything handed to them with minimal effort.

Not quite, I don't mind doing the research, I wouldn't mind if we had to actually do it manually (in game not literally, I'm not going to learn blacksmithing in real life).

What I object to is the degree of time for this last trait, 51 days per item, means 255 days to learn it on all my Blacksmithing or clothing items. Nearly nine months for it.

It actually works out at 238 days, which translates to little under eight months. That's to entirely master a single craft. Once those seven months are over, you have nothing more to do. If you're still playing in 2 or 3 years, everyone will have those traits and your crafting prowess will mean zilch.

It's important they keep upping the time required, to single out the few dedicated crafters out there who have gone out of their way to make sure they're ahead of the crowd.

It sort of works like a reward system. Those who are subscribed the longest, and actively renewing their research; they're the ones who reap the most reward. As it should be.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

jesus christ. Don't get me wrong, I expected a very long amount of time, but actually seeing it is agony.

I wouldn't really complain about it. I mean, it will probably take a year at least to get all the 9 traits researched (not doing math on this, no sir,) but when 9 trait sets come out, the value of those will be delicious.

I am just very unhappy that I am required to do group pve, or any pve, to get the trait to research. And apparently this is not easy stuff, so I can't even do a mind-numbing grind for this crap. There needs to be more options. The people selling this are going to be the raid pve'rs that are min/maxed for hardmode for the arena and don't they have enough money already? The game just seems more and more like it is being steered to favor them entirely.

Phantax

Pseudonym wrote: »

They should all be instant, free and crafts shouldn't cost skills points or materials. We should all be given everything whenever we ask for it, because that's how this entitled generation of gamers want it.

Someone mentioned earlier that just because EVE did it right, that doesn't mean to say it will work here. I couldn't disagree more; for crafting to have any real meaning, you need to be able to stand out from the crowd. In years to come I imagine there will only be a handful of people who can craft you a 14 trait item; and you'd need to visit a range of people to create an entire set.

I hope they carry on the way they are.

The reason I quoted EVE was to get across the feeling of achievement gotten when you finally complete that skill/research. You felt like you had actually earned it, not just had it handed to you with a bow on.

As for only having a handful of people who could craft 14 trait items FANTASTIC ! Isn't that what actually being a 'master crafter' should be about. People who have invested time and effort into perfecting their craft! ?

Nestor

Stonesthrow wrote: »

Learn the ones your Main needs on your alts, or mules, at 6 hours a trait then just make the one(s) you know you will need next and throw them in your bank.

Problem is, I am hoping to delete those mules at some point and turn those slots into real bonifide characters.

Plus, without putting skill points in Research Passives, not to mention the time and items needed to to get the mules to the point where they can to research 2 or 3 traits, it will take longer to have a mule learn what I have left to do than my main crafting characters, at one trait at a time. In addition, not having the extraction passives means I won't get all the tempers that I get now from my regular crafters. I will feel like I am wasting deconstruction efforts to level crafting on these alts as I get a ton of tempers now.

So, I have thought about doing just what you have suggested, it does not make sense in the long run as I won't save that much time.

jambam817_ESO

$15 bucks to research a trait, noice.

AlnilamE

It's more about saving inventory spots than time.

But let's say you do this and only have one research slot on your character. The first research for each item is 6 hours, so you can go through 2 per craft per day fairly easily (3 on a weekend). The second trait is 12 hours, so 2 per day is not unreasonable either if you can log in in the morning to get research started.

Since your main is already researching through the 6th traits, that's pretty much all your alt will have to learn. That would be about a week for tier 1 and a week for tier 2.

Then, when your main has a free slot, your alt crafts an item with that trait. Once your main has learned everything, you can delete your alt and make a new character.

nerevarine1138

Rosveen wrote: »

Don't the research perks have 4 tiers now? With the last one limiting research time to 30 days?

Yes.

I don't know how this thread even got started, but I'm even more amazed that it went this long before someone talked about the actual in-game mechanics. Please read, people. This additional tier to the research passive was brought up in every other thread on the 9th trait.

Ourorboros

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Don't the research perks have 4 tiers now? With the last one limiting research time to 30 days?

Yes.

I don't know how this thread even got started, but I'm even more amazed that it went this long before someone talked about the actual in-game mechanics. Please read, people. This additional tier to the research passive was brought up in every other thread on the 9th trait.

Hmmm....more perks to shorten research times is a good thing, but I'm fresh out of skyshards for skill points. Time to ramp up the questing I guess.

kitsinni

Emperor wrote: »

Agreed.

I'm tired of people complaining because they actually have to work towards an achievement. It's not really an accomplishment if everyone can get it instantly. It just becomes more junk.

Someone actually told me they are shortening research times soon which I hope isn't true. A master crafter (that has all traits researched) should be an uncommon thing. That person should feel accomplished that they spent the time and effort to become a master crafter. It shouldn't just be another pointless achievement that everyone already has.

You click a button and log off for 51 days how is that "work"?

AlnilamE

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Don't the research perks have 4 tiers now? With the last one limiting research time to 30 days?

Yes.

I don't know how this thread even got started, but I'm even more amazed that it went this long before someone talked about the actual in-game mechanics. Please read, people. This additional tier to the research passive was brought up in every other thread on the 9th trait.

*ahem*

AlnilamE wrote: »

You are assuming you will find one of each item with the new trait right off the bat. Isn't it supposed to be pretty rare?

I'm still working on my 7th and 8th trait researches on most of my stuff.

Also, I had heard you could spend a skill point in research to bring the 51 days down to 30. Was that scrapped?