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Crit or Crit DMG? Mundus Question

Mondo
Mondo
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Ok im a NB and wanna know what is the magic number where the shadow becomes better then the thief mundus?

How much crit must i have to get more dmg from shadow insted of thief?

In general when is more crit useless ore not as good as other stats mundus what ever
?

Edited by Mondo on August 26, 2014 3:26PM
Im not the Hero you need, im the Troll you deserve!
- Survived the WoW Pre LK Rogue Forum "Come at me Bro" -

L2P = Accept that DK is OP and stop complaining
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    In pvp? Go with atronach. It's as good as having a 4th jewelry enchant.
    Edited by Sharee on August 26, 2014 3:29PM
  • Mondo
    Mondo
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    Armitas love you
    Im not the Hero you need, im the Troll you deserve!
    - Survived the WoW Pre LK Rogue Forum "Come at me Bro" -

    L2P = Accept that DK is OP and stop complaining
  • Brasseurfb16_ESO
    Brasseurfb16_ESO
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    Armitas wrote: »
    A normal crit is 1.5x and with shadow the damage is 1.6x. Lets say you do 100damage each attack and you have 50% crit with thief and 45% with shadow stone. For each test you make 100 identical attacks.

    Thief at 50% crit chance, 1.5x modifier
    50crits at 150damage = 7500damage
    50 non crits at 100 damage =5000damage
    Total 12,500damage after 100 attacks.

    Shadow at 45% crit chance 1.6x modifier

    45crits at 160 damage = 7200 damage
    55 non crits at 100 damage = 5500 damage
    Total 12,700damage after 100 attacks.

    So at 45% crit Shadow is better.

    Now at 30 and 25% crit.

    Thief at 30% crit chance 1.5x modifier
    30crits at 150damage = 4500
    70 non crits at 100 damage = 7000
    Total 11,500 damage

    Shadow at 25% crit chance 1.6x modifier
    25crits at 160 damage = 4000
    75 non crits at 100 damage = 7500
    Total 11,500 damage

    So at 25% crit adding shadow or thief would net the same damage

    At 26% crit shadow starts to pull ahead. So with no mundus stones on, if you are at 25% crit you will get the same damage if you equip shadow or thief. However at 26% crit without a mundus stone you will get more damage overall by going with shadow.

    25% crit and shadow = 30% crit with Theif.

    You might reconsider your calculation Armitas, because the critical damage bonus applies a 10% dmg modifier to the critical portion of the skill. So your 10% is realy in fact only a 5% increase.


    Let me show you an exemple with an attack dealing 100 dmg :

    with 55% critical chance : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 0.5) x 55] /100 = 127.5 A/dmg

    with 50% critical chance and 10% critical damage : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 1.1 x 0.5) x 50] /100 = 127.5 A/dmg



    Now lets reduce the critical chance value by 1% :

    with 54% critical chance : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 0.5) x 54] /100 = 127 A/dmg

    with 49% critical chance and 10% critical damage : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 1.1 x 0.5) x 49] /100 = 126.95 A/dmg



    Now lets increase the critical chance value by 1% :

    with 56% critical chance : [(100 x 1) x 100+ (100 x 0.5) x 56] /100 = 128 A/dmg

    with 51% critical chance and 10% critical damage : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 1.1 x 0.5) x 51] /100 = 128.05 A/dmg


    In this case, Critical Damage becomes slightly more interesting when you actualy get above 50% Critical Chance. (55% for Nightblades, because their Hemorrage passive grants them an extra 10% Critical Damage increase)

    Also, it is worth noting that multiple Critical Damage modifiers are mutualy exclusive and will actualy increase the critical portion of a skill by its modified value and not its base value.

    To show it in the same context, if we have an attack dealing 100 dmg and we are using Hemorrhage Critical Damage bonus on top of the Shadow Mundus stone we get the following results.

    100 x 1 + (100 x 1.1 x 1.1) x 0.5 = 160.5 dmg or 160 dmg(-) with critical strikes.


    Please, if you might think my calculations are incorrect, may I ask you to run the test before answering. I downloaded specificaly FTC, not that long ago, to try out how critical damage realy worked and the data I collected concludes with my calculations.

    Edited by Brasseurfb16_ESO on August 27, 2014 7:31AM
  • forthewinn2
    forthewinn2
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    @Brasseurfb16_ESO the point you were trying to make is correct but the math you listed was a little unclear and didn't seem to support it(I think you just forgot to put in the noncrit component when you typed out your math).

    Non-Nightblade
    If I perform 100 attacks(which noncrit for 100 damage each) with 50% crit and the 10% crit damage from The Shadow stone my total damage is: (100+100*1.1*0.5)*50+50*100=12750

    If I perform 100 attacks(which noncrit for 100 damage each) with 55% crit my total damage is: (100+100*0.5)*55+100*45=12750

    Nightblade
    If I perform 100 attacks(which noncrit for 100 damage each) with 50% crit and the 10% crit damage from The Shadow stone plus the 10% crit damage from the Hemorrhage Nightblade passive my total damage is:
    (100+100*1.1*1.1*0.5)*50+100*50=13025

    If I perform 100 attacks(which noncrit for 100 damage each) with 55% crit and the 10% crit damage from the Hemmorage Nightblade passive my total damage is:
    (100+100*1.1*0.5)*55+100*45=13025

    Conclusion
    Basically at 50% crit 'The Shadow' mundus stone and 'The Thief' mundus stone give equal benefit regardless of whether you are a nightblade or not.
    If you have a crit chance below 50% you are better off with 'The Thief' mundus stone.
    If you have a crit chance higher than 50% you are better off with 'The Shadow' mundus stone.
  • Brasseurfb16_ESO
    Brasseurfb16_ESO
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    @Brasseurfb16_ESO the point you were trying to make is correct but the math you listed was a little unclear and didn't seem to support it(I think you just forgot to put in the noncrit component when you typed out your math).

    Non-Nightblade
    If I perform 100 attacks(which noncrit for 100 damage each) with 50% crit and the 10% crit damage from The Shadow stone my total damage is: (100+100*1.1*0.5)*50+50*100=12750

    If I perform 100 attacks(which noncrit for 100 damage each) with 55% crit my total damage is: (100+100*0.5)*55+100*45=12750

    Nightblade
    If I perform 100 attacks(which noncrit for 100 damage each) with 50% crit and the 10% crit damage from The Shadow stone plus the 10% crit damage from the Hemorrhage Nightblade passive my total damage is:
    (100+100*1.1*1.1*0.5)*50+100*50=13025

    If I perform 100 attacks(which noncrit for 100 damage each) with 55% crit and the 10% crit damage from the Hemmorage Nightblade passive my total damage is:
    (100+100*1.1*0.5)*55+100*45=13025

    Conclusion
    Basically at 50% crit 'The Shadow' mundus stone and 'The Thief' mundus stone give equal benefit regardless of whether you are a nightblade or not.
    If you have a crit chance below 50% you are better off with 'The Thief' mundus stone.
    If you have a crit chance higher than 50% you are better off with 'The Shadow' mundus stone.

    Yeah, thanks for noting the mistake I made. I messed up with the critical chance formula, forgot to multiply the base value by 100. (That's what happens when you translate your math at 3 A.M :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: )

    With the correct values now :

    with 55% critical chance : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 0.5) x 55] /100 = 127.5 A/dmg

    with 50% critical chance and 10% critical damage : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 1.1 x 0.5) x 50] /100 = 127.5 A/dmg



    Now lets reduce the critical chance value by 1% :

    with 54% critical chance : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 0.5) x 54] /100 = 127 A/dmg

    with 49% critical chance and 10% critical damage : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 1.1 x 0.5) x 49] /100 = 126.95 A/dmg



    Now lets increase the critical chance value by 1% :

    with 56% critical chance : [(100 x 1) x 100+ (100 x 0.5) x 56] /100 = 128 A/dmg

    with 51% critical chance and 10% critical damage : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 1.1 x 0.5) x 51] /100 = 128.05 A/dmg



    Now with Nightblade values

    with 55% critical chance : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 1.1 x 0.5) x 55] /100 = 130.25 A/dmg

    with 50% critical chance and 10% critical damage : [(100 x 1) x 100 + (100 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 0.5) x 50] /100 = 130.25 A/dmg

    Conclusion : indeed Nightblade bonus is going to be the same, don't know how I came to those conclusions yesterday... Must realy have been very tired... *facepalm self*
    Edited by Brasseurfb16_ESO on August 27, 2014 7:48AM
  • Fruity_Ninja
    Fruity_Ninja
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    So TL;DR = stick with The Thief? (my crit is in the 40's).

    Also does this apply the same to weapon and spell crit?
  • forthewinn2
    forthewinn2
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    So TL;DR = stick with The Thief? (my crit is in the 40's).

    Also does this apply the same to weapon and spell crit?
    If your crit is in the 40's stick with the thief.
    Yes this applies to both weapon and spell crit.
  • Fruity_Ninja
    Fruity_Ninja
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    Thanks :)

    Thief it is.

  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    You might reconsider your calculation Armitas, because the critical damage bonus applies a 10% dmg modifier to the critical portion of the skill. So your 10% is realy in fact only a 5% increase.

    So for this one thing they chose to go with a multiplicative instead of an additive? Penetration is additive leaving people with 0% mitigation, Impenetrable is additive leaving people with 70% crit chance at 0% crit and yet they seemingly arbitrarily chose to make this multiplicative.... I can't understand the reason behind this choice.

    This needs a rebalance. With only 2 crit category stones it should not require 50% extrinsic crit for a Mundus stone to become valuable. 25% crit is pretty easy to get, pop innner light with a crit trait weapon and you're there. If it were additive that would make both thief and shadow immediately valuable. As it stands now it takes quite a bit of gearing and class passives to achieve the 50% crit where shadow becomes valuable. This makes the shadow stone the only "End Game" mundus stone because it won't become valuable until you are capped and geared.
    Edited by Armitas on August 27, 2014 6:25PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Tankqull
    Tankqull
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    So TL;DR = stick with The Thief? (my crit is in the 40's).

    Also does this apply the same to weapon and spell crit?
    If your crit is in the 40's stick with the thief.
    Yes this applies to both weapon and spell crit.

    untill your pvping as every one (worth to be considered) is using crit resistance traits thief is allway inferior to shadow as you´ll only crit on guaranteed crits.
    spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused

    Sallington wrote: »
    Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"


  • Beldorr
    Beldorr
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    So I've spent some time on this.

    The TLDR:

    1% crit is 0.5% dps increase with 150% damage bonus.
    At 50% critical chance, 1% critical damage bonus is .5% dps increase.


    If you put your DPS as 1, the formula works nicely to tell you what you dps increase is in a percentage way.

    Formula:
    DPS * (100% - Critical Chance) + (DPS* Critical Chance * Critical Bonus Damage)
    

    bbc doesn't work in here :(
    Edit: I put the table in a google doc
    Edited by Beldorr on August 27, 2014 1:37PM
  • Illuvatarr
    Illuvatarr
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    Use tower or atronach. This is an academic discussion as no one knows the exact formulas utilized in the equation cocktail for damage.
  • forthewinn2
    forthewinn2
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    untill your pvping as every one (worth to be considered) is using crit resistance traits thief is allway inferior to shadow as you´ll only crit on guaranteed crits.
    I was speaking purely in terms of pve, as it is well known that stacking crit is inefficient in pvp. There are far better mundus stones for pvp purposes than either of the two.

  • Saet
    Saet
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    My crit rate sits at 74% right now and I feel like I'm wasting a mundus stone use that could be spent better. I'm a V12, bow using, medium armor nightblade. What stone would give me the best burst damage? Warrior? Right now its Thief I'm using.
    Edited by Saet on August 27, 2014 3:02PM
    Saet - stam nb
    Hordak - magicka nb
    Demigorgon - stam sorc
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    Saet wrote: »
    My crit rate sits at 74% right now and I feel like I'm wasting a mundus stone use that could be spent better. I'm a V12, bow using, medium armor nightblade. What stone would give me the best burst damage? Warrior? Right now its Thief I'm using.

    For PvP I would not rely on crit chance because it is believed that a full set of impenetrable armor is -70% crit, additive. That would mean you actually have 4% crit against an impenetrable player. With Thief you would have 9% so I would go with more damage like the warrior, or a stat mundus stone, or as someone mentioned, shadow for the guaranteed crits if that is your main source of damage. You can check your damage source log after a battle to see what skills would be better off to improve.

    Usually a stat stone is more valuable than the warrior and here is why.
    Crushing shock with Warrior 200damage
    Crushing shock with Mage 200 Damge

    Magicka and weapon power both increase destruction staff damage. However only one also increases class ability damage, and that is the Mage. It also gives you a larger resource pool. I think warrior only becomes valuable after Magicka or Stamina becomes overcharged. (note certain skills may vary in their use of weapon power)
    Edited by Armitas on August 27, 2014 3:56PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Saet
    Saet
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    Good advice, Thanks Armitas.
    Saet - stam nb
    Hordak - magicka nb
    Demigorgon - stam sorc
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