Do NPCs have a crit chance?

Rodario

I'm about to craft a new PvE-only set and I have no idea how many pieces should be impenetrable. Does anyone know how much, if any, crit chance NPCs have and if that value is the same for all enemies (incl. bosses)?

I've been searching far and wide and have found very few and conflicting sources. Some players say NPCs never crit, most say they do and then there's the CS reply someone posted that said, in essence: "Yes, NPCs can crit. No, we can't tell you (don't know?) about the chances."

Thanks in Advance for any clarifications.

MAOofDC

I have short answers for the OP. Yes NPC can crit. No we don't know the percentiles. It is low enough that putting anti-crit stat on your PvE gear is a waste.

MAOofDC

Maverick827 wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I have short answers for the OP. Yes NPC can crit. No we don't know the percentiles. It is low enough that putting anti-crit stat on your PvE gear is a waste.

What source do you have?

Me and the addon Foundery Tactical Combat it gives you floating damage when you crit the numbers are bracketed by asterisks like so *888*. I have been hit by NPCs and their damage, also displayed, had asterisks meaning they crited on me.

MmmmTofu

The damage tracking addon does not show when you get hit by a crit from mobs, it shows crit as regular damage, but you can tell that some damage is 1.5 times normal damage so yes they do crit, very rarely. I wouldn't craft all impen for PvE though, infused would be good enough in most cases.

Rodario

Thanks for the confirmation @MmmmTofu‌, I really need a percentage though for regular mobs and if it's higher for bosses. I don't just wanna assume it's below 10% for all NPCs, craft only one piece with impenetrable, only to find out that some bosses have 30%...

Man, I remember an MMO where detailed information on such basic mechanics and on stats could just be read on the official site. Everyone knew standard mobs had 5% crit chance, some bosses more. I really think such info should not be made a secrect...

guybrushtb16_ESO

Rodario wrote: »

Thanks for the confirmation @MmmmTofu‌, I really need a percentage though for regular mobs and if it's higher for bosses. I don't just wanna assume it's below 10% for all NPCs, craft only one piece with impenetrable, only to find out that some bosses have 30%...

Man, I remember an MMO where detailed information on such basic mechanics and on stats could just be read on the official site. Everyone knew standard mobs had 5% crit chance, some bosses more. I really think such info should not be made a secrect...

It appears MMOs today the general trend seems to be "don't ever challenge the customer with numbers" and "less info is good design". Despite the fact that they totally *are* about numbers still, if you want to dig into it. Especially in ESO, some mechanics are so convoluted and unintuitive that there is no way in hell you would ever just understand even basic mechanics like your on crit chance on your own, without either extensive testing or looking for someone who did that.

Persephonius

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Thanks for the confirmation @MmmmTofu‌, I really need a percentage though for regular mobs and if it's higher for bosses. I don't just wanna assume it's below 10% for all NPCs, craft only one piece with impenetrable, only to find out that some bosses have 30%...

Man, I remember an MMO where detailed information on such basic mechanics and on stats could just be read on the official site. Everyone knew standard mobs had 5% crit chance, some bosses more. I really think such info should not be made a secrect...

It appears MMOs today the general trend seems to be "don't ever challenge the customer with numbers" and "less info is good design". Despite the fact that they totally *are* about numbers still, if you want to dig into it. Especially in ESO, some mechanics are so convoluted and unintuitive that there is no way in hell you would ever just understand even basic mechanics like your on crit chance on your own, without either extensive testing or looking for someone who did that.

Yeah I agree with this. There are a few parameters I would like clarification on as well. Some are as follows.

Elemental resistance and spell resistance. How are the two resistances applied, do they work on different diminishing returns characteristics? Are they additive? Or does the resistances work in an onion model. I.e., lets say I am attacked with 100 fire damage, and I have 50% magic resistance and 50% fire resistance. The onion model would have the resistances applied sequentially and I would take 25 damage. But a lot of other stats seem additive. So if they are additive and share the same diminishing returns curve, it would be the same result if I had 100% magic resistance on the diminishing returns scale, and then the damage is worked out. Or is it calculated in the onion model scheme, but they share a diminishing returns curve that is not independent of each-other?

Is every ability in the game strictly applied to one of either magic resistance or physical resistance? So in this case an ability only gets mitigated by one of the two resistances. Or are there abilities that get mitigated by both armour and spell resistances. In my own testing/observations, I have found some abilities that seem to be mitigated by both resistance types at the same time, but there is no way of determining what abilities are mitigated by what resistances from the in-game information other than just assuming that attacks that use magicka are only mitigated by magicka resistance, and stamina based attacks are only mitigated by armour. I hope this is not the case (and from my own observations I am fairly sure it does not work that way), as there would be very limited abilities that would be mitigated by armour. I am confident that some of my magicka based attacks are being mitigated by armour and spell resistance at the same time, and that some are not, but I am not absolutely certain. I was thinking that melee magicka based attacks are mitigated by both armour and spell resistance, or is it just armour? But recently I have found some of my ranged magicka based attacks seem to be mitigated by armour and magicka resistances as well.

Currently, my thoughts are that ranged elemental attacks that consume magicka are only mitigated by magicka and elemental resistance. Ranged attacks that consume magicka and are not elemental are mitigated by both armour and magicka resistance (my observations with this come from crystal fragments, I usually deal less damage to heavy armour players than players in light armour with this attack, and there are other ranged magicka attacks that don't fit this model as well, such as the nightblade class skills). Ranged non elemental attacks that consume stamina are only mitigated by armour. Melee elemental attacks are mitigated by armour, spell and elemental resistance. Non elemental melee attacks that consume magicka are mitigated by both armour and spell resistance. Non elemental melee attacks that consume stamina are only mitigated by armour. Is this correct?

Also, is disease and poison damage completely unmitigated by anything other than direct disease and poison resistance?

zgrssd

Persephonius wrote: »

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Thanks for the confirmation @MmmmTofu‌, I really need a percentage though for regular mobs and if it's higher for bosses. I don't just wanna assume it's below 10% for all NPCs, craft only one piece with impenetrable, only to find out that some bosses have 30%...

Man, I remember an MMO where detailed information on such basic mechanics and on stats could just be read on the official site. Everyone knew standard mobs had 5% crit chance, some bosses more. I really think such info should not be made a secrect...

It appears MMOs today the general trend seems to be "don't ever challenge the customer with numbers" and "less info is good design". Despite the fact that they totally *are* about numbers still, if you want to dig into it. Especially in ESO, some mechanics are so convoluted and unintuitive that there is no way in hell you would ever just understand even basic mechanics like your on crit chance on your own, without either extensive testing or looking for someone who did that.

Yeah I agree with this. There are a few parameters I would like clarification on as well. Some are as follows.

Elemental resistance and spell resistance. How are the two resistances applied, do they work on different diminishing returns characteristics? Are they additive? [...]

Is every ability in the game strictly applied to one of either magic resistance or physical resistance? [...]

Currently, my thoughts are that ranged elemental attacks that consume magicka are only mitigated by magicka and elemental resistance. [...]

Also, is disease and poison damage completely unmitigated by anything other than direct disease and poison resistance?

Elemental:
Afaik it get's added to your Spell Resistance or Armor, depending on the attacks defense.
The summed value is still subject to armor/spell res hard- and softcaps.


Armor or Spell Res:
Currently the system of wich skill uses wich Defense, Power or Crit (spell or weapon) is quite chaotic. They cannot really make changes right now for fear of breaking the class balance.
And better documenting it right now would only result in more "the programmers all belong fired and fried in burning oil for icompetence" posts. And those are pointless.

And then there is the whole issues of extra damage.
Does the extra damage of Ingenous weapons or Damage Enchantments go against Spell Resist or Armor + Elemental Resistance?


Afaik ranged attacks are resisted either By Armor + Elemental Resistance or Spell Resistance + Elemental Resistance, as is fitting for the attack (Stam and Mana respectively).

Poision and Disesae afaik goes against armor normally. So Armor+P-Resistance, simply because all Posion attacks are physical attacks in nature.

Persephonius

zgrssd wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Thanks for the confirmation @MmmmTofu‌, I really need a percentage though for regular mobs and if it's higher for bosses. I don't just wanna assume it's below 10% for all NPCs, craft only one piece with impenetrable, only to find out that some bosses have 30%...

Man, I remember an MMO where detailed information on such basic mechanics and on stats could just be read on the official site. Everyone knew standard mobs had 5% crit chance, some bosses more. I really think such info should not be made a secrect...

It appears MMOs today the general trend seems to be "don't ever challenge the customer with numbers" and "less info is good design". Despite the fact that they totally *are* about numbers still, if you want to dig into it. Especially in ESO, some mechanics are so convoluted and unintuitive that there is no way in hell you would ever just understand even basic mechanics like your on crit chance on your own, without either extensive testing or looking for someone who did that.

Yeah I agree with this. There are a few parameters I would like clarification on as well. Some are as follows.

Elemental resistance and spell resistance. How are the two resistances applied, do they work on different diminishing returns characteristics? Are they additive? [...]

Is every ability in the game strictly applied to one of either magic resistance or physical resistance? [...]

Currently, my thoughts are that ranged elemental attacks that consume magicka are only mitigated by magicka and elemental resistance. [...]

Also, is disease and poison damage completely unmitigated by anything other than direct disease and poison resistance?

Elemental:
Afaik it get's added to your Spell Resistance or Armor, depending on the attacks defense.
The summed value is still subject to armor/spell res hard- and softcaps.


Armor or Spell Res:
Currently the system of wich skill uses wich Defense, Power or Crit (spell or weapon) is quite chaotic. They cannot really make changes right now for fear of breaking the class balance.
And better documenting it right now would only result in more "the programmers all belong fired and fried in burning oil for icompetence" posts. And those are pointless.

And then there is the whole issues of extra damage.
Does the extra damage of Ingenous weapons or Damage Enchantments go against Spell Resist or Armor + Elemental Resistance?


Afaik ranged attacks are resisted either By Armor + Elemental Resistance or Spell Resistance + Elemental Resistance, as is fitting for the attack (Stam and Mana respectively).

Poision and Disesae afaik goes against armor normally. So Armor+P-Resistance, simply because all Posion attacks are physical attacks in nature.

Thanks for the post So there is still some unknowns, or conjecture about some of the systems it seems?

Rodario

Ahem, ..., NPC crit chance anyone?

Persephonius

Rodario wrote: »

Ahem, ..., NPC crit chance anyone?

Sorry I was reinforcing your point about lack of information with the mechanics. But Yes I believe that NPC's can crit. In group dungeons and veteran deungeons I have been 1 shot for around 3K by archers for example, according to the death recap, but the same attack also shows up with much less damage, so I assumed that NPc's could crit.

DenverRalphy

As someone who predominately PvE's, yes NPCs occasionally crit. But nowhere near a level that you need gear for it. You're going to have that occasional "owe that stung" moment, but rarely would it put you in a bad situation.

GnatB

zgrssd wrote: »

And better documenting it right now would only result in more "the programmers all belong fired and fried in burning oil for icompetence" posts. And those are pointless.

I'd assume it would be more the designers than the programmers. And considering some of the other poor design choices, I'd argue it'd probably be justified.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Persephonius wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Ahem, ..., NPC crit chance anyone?

Sorry I was reinforcing your point about lack of information with the mechanics. But Yes I believe that NPC's can crit. In group dungeons and veteran deungeons I have been 1 shot for around 3K by archers for example, according to the death recap, but the same attack also shows up with much less damage, so I assumed that NPc's could crit.

Are you sure those attacks were crits and not simply heavy/power attacks? Because if not, their crit chance should probably be in the <5% range; so from what we know about how crit works against players, wearing just 1 piece of impenetrable would actually be good in pve, and I've never seen anyone advocating that.

Persephonius

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Ahem, ..., NPC crit chance anyone?

Sorry I was reinforcing your point about lack of information with the mechanics. But Yes I believe that NPC's can crit. In group dungeons and veteran deungeons I have been 1 shot for around 3K by archers for example, according to the death recap, but the same attack also shows up with much less damage, so I assumed that NPc's could crit.

Are you sure those attacks were crits and not simply heavy/power attacks? Because if not, their crit chance should probably be in the <5% range; so from what we know about how crit works against players, wearing just 1 piece of impenetrable would actually be good in pve, and I've never seen anyone advocating that.

It could be a heavy attack. But I assumed that taking a 3K hit from an archer in a dungeon would have just been due to rng and that it was a critical hit. It could also just be that the archer was charging up a heavy attack, and if I was paying attention the attack was telegraphed to everyone 'MOVE OUT OF THE WAY I AM CHARGING A BIG HIT' sort of thing. I will pay more attention to this now, as maybe/probably you are right.

SirJesto

When I'm rolling a toon through PvE levels 1-50 I usually make 1 item Impenetrable just in case, but I may do it in Vet now as well.

Rodario

Persephonius wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

Ahem, ..., NPC crit chance anyone?

Sorry I was reinforcing your point about lack of information with the mechanics. But Yes I believe that NPC's can crit. In group dungeons and veteran deungeons I have been 1 shot for around 3K by archers for example, according to the death recap, but the same attack also shows up with much less damage, so I assumed that NPc's could crit.

No problem That lack of information seems to be really severe, as we still don't have an answer that mentions percentages with any certainty. Maybe a member of the @ZOS_ModerationTeam‌ would like to jump in and (acquire and) provide some answers?

I still have half a VR rank to level before crafting my new tank set. Failing the receival of any acurate figures till then, I guess I'll just make one item impenetrable.

I know I could figure out these values by sifting damage meter logs for 1.5x normal damage vs my nude character and doing the math, I was just hoping somebody already knew the values, which would save me some effort and trouble. Me and everyone reading this thread, that is.

Iam_Epiphany

I've contacted ZOS about the lack of information multiple times and been informed that the intention is to put us in the world with an organic level of information and have to learn things and work them out for ourselves.
I think it makes the game a lot more enjoyable to work these things out for ourselves, do testing and share our results.
Anyone else enjoying not being spoonfed indepth knowledge on the game?
No?
*crickets*

Maybe people are just lazy.

Persephonius

Iam_Epiphany wrote: »

I've contacted ZOS about the lack of information multiple times and been informed that the intention is to put us in the world with an organic level of information and have to learn things and work them out for ourselves.
I think it makes the game a lot more enjoyable to work these things out for ourselves, do testing and share our results.
Anyone else enjoying not being spoonfed indepth knowledge on the game?
No?
*crickets*

Maybe people are just lazy.

Yeah I can understand that argument as well. But there is some conjecture about more 'qualitative' ideas of how some mechanics work that seem to be getting in the way of conclusive quantitative testing. For example, this did this, but I am not sure if it is influenced by just A, or just B or both, and finding ways to eliminate possibilities is also challenging namely because there is no dueling. It can be done in Cyrodiil with the co-operation of another player from an opposing faction. However, in this case, that will not answer the question of whether or not NPC's can crit.

If there are also variables such as that not all NPC's can crit, but only some, or certain archetypes (archers, and 2 handed weapon wielders for example; or even varying critical hit chances among different NPC types) then testing on say a mudcrab.... you will be there all day and never receive a critical hit, you can only say mudcrabs cannot critical hit, who knows about the other NPC's. So simple stuff about whether there is uniformity across all NPC's or not is also unknown making conclusive quantitative testing very onerous usually resulting in making assumptions/guesses.

Iam_Epiphany

I respect that point of view but some people enjoy looking into this stuff and ESO is a great game for people who want to do our own research.
(I agree duelling is an issue for this sometimes but not in this case, it's an issue for a lot of other things too...back on topic though)
The fact is this game is still very new and there should be some time spent learning about it, I was very surprised to jump into a brand new MMO and find everyone expected to know everything and have everything in the first week, gamers are so spoiled these days.

And no, I'm not saying everyone has to go out and do their own research, only one person has to discover something for the idea to spread.

Persephonius

Iam_Epiphany wrote: »

I respect that point of view but some people enjoy looking into this stuff and ESO is a great game for people who want to do our own research.
(I agree duelling is an issue for this sometimes but not in this case, it's an issue for a lot of other things too...back on topic though)
The fact is this game is still very new and there should be some time spent learning about it, I was very surprised to jump into a brand new MMO and find everyone expected to know everything and have everything in the first week, gamers are so spoiled these days.

And no, I'm not saying everyone has to go out and do their own research, only one person has to discover something for the idea to spread.

Well, if your interested in doing some in-game testing (I think there are several mechanics that require player co-operation) maybe we can organize something?

guybrushtb16_ESO

Iam_Epiphany wrote: »

I've contacted ZOS about the lack of information multiple times and been informed that the intention is to put us in the world with an organic level of information and have to learn things and work them out for ourselves.
I think it makes the game a lot more enjoyable to work these things out for ourselves, do testing and share our results.
Anyone else enjoying not being spoonfed indepth knowledge on the game?
No?
*crickets*

Maybe people are just lazy.

Sorry, but to me that just sounds like a lame excuse really, and it also doesn't explain why some mechanics are so horribly horribly unintuitive. Having us discover mechanics in an organic way would maybe be a thing if they made any sense to begin with, but often times the mechanics are arbitrary (class skills crit chance, anyone?) and the tooltips and info we get are either misleading or downright wrong. Even with proper tooltips, there would still be lots of things to discover like optimal rotations and tradeoffs, but the info needed to make an eductated decision should at least be there somewhere IMO.

And for permanent decisions like race choices it's really just bad. "Chose something right now and discover later what would have been good" does not sound like a good idea to me, at least if you don't get a chance to go back on that decision.

Iam_Epiphany

It's not a lame excuse to me, I actually enjoy it...and they all make sense if you put some time into working it out, I'm not sure people are even really capable of designing something that makes no sense unless they intended to do so...

Anyway, they should tell you what your racials are before you create your character, I agree that is pretty important.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

" Sorry, but to me that just sounds like a lame excuse really, and it also doesn't explain why some mechanics are so horribly horribly unintuitive. Having us discover mechanics in an organic way would maybe be a thing if they made any sense to begin with, but often times the mechanics are arbitrary (class skills crit chance, anyone?) and the tooltips and info we get are either misleading or downright wrong. "

Totally agree with that. So much basic mechanics are broken or at least bad designed. Crit (after a lot of researches with other players, our conclusion is : it's totally a mess !), resists (some just don't work, other gives you almost nothing or so), magica/stamina balance (cmon' it's not a Harry Potter game!), caps, wrong tooltips, life gain vs other stats gain (+15 vs +10 !?!? why ?!?), CC break, spamming instants will blocking (damn you good skilled player spamming firering will blocking !), no guard break to counter this, IMBA light armour vs others, armour comp that can be used even if you don't wear it (hello inamovable in full LA !) etc etc etc etc...

I do enjoy this game mostly because i am a ESO fan since Daggerfall but i most be honnest, the mechanics in this one are completely random/bugged/imba.

Persephonius

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

" Sorry, but to me that just sounds like a lame excuse really, and it also doesn't explain why some mechanics are so horribly horribly unintuitive. Having us discover mechanics in an organic way would maybe be a thing if they made any sense to begin with, but often times the mechanics are arbitrary (class skills crit chance, anyone?) and the tooltips and info we get are either misleading or downright wrong. "

Totally agree with that. So much basic mechanics are broken or at least bad designed. Crit (after a lot of researches with other players, our conclusion is : it's totally a mess !), resists (some just don't work, other gives you almost nothing or so), magica/stamina balance (cmon' it's not a Harry Potter game!), caps, wrong tooltips, life gain vs other stats gain (+15 vs +10 !?!? why ?!?), CC break, spamming instants will blocking (damn you good skilled player spamming firering will blocking !), no guard break to counter this, IMBA light armour vs others, armour comp that can be used even if you don't wear it (hello inamovable in full LA !) etc etc etc etc...

I do enjoy this game mostly because i am a ESO fan since Daggerfall but i most be honnest, the mechanics in this one are completely random/bugged/imba.

Actually, there is a relatively straight forward answer why HP gain is +15 (used to be +20) and magicka/stamina is +10. The caps for magicka and stamina are significantly lower than for HP. So you gain more HP per attribute point and/or glyph and still gain a proportional stat amount as compared to the cap. If the caps remained as they were, and they increased stamina and magicka to +15 per attribute point and per gylph, it would become quite easy to soft cap both magicka and stamina. You would want a magikca build to have lower stamina, they cannot block as much for example, and a stmina build to have less magikca, so there magicka based attacks do not hit as hard as a magicka build etc.

Conversely if you reduced the HP gain per attribute point and glyph, well that would be more problematic then the stamina/magicka example that I mentioned above. The time to kill (TTK) in this game is far lower than any other MMO I have played as it is right now. So by reducing our HP pool, the TTK will be reduced even further. I have seen players burst other players down in PvP and achieve 2.4K dps (This 2.4K dps is not sustainable ofcourse). Basically, you can achieve a virtual 1:1 ratio of dps to HP, and it is possible to kill someone in 1 second O_O. And if you look at say sustained dps numbers to HP ratios, anywhere from 600 - 1.3K dps, and 2K-2.6K HP, we have a dps:HP ratio of 1:4 to 1:2 sometimes. This is extremely biased towards dps, so the TTK in general in PvP is comparitively very low. Another MMO I am active in right now is Swtor. The HP of a full brutilizer PvP geared character is about 33K, and players are achieveing about 2.8-3K sustained dps. That is more than a10:1 ratio of HP to dps. Ofcourse you can block in eso significantly increasing your TTK, but this is the same as using defensive cooldowns in other MMO's, as an example, in swtor the sorcerer has an ability called force barrier which makes you immune to all damage for 15 seconds. In swtor I have had 1v1 Pvp battles last for minutes, compared to the 10 seconds in eso.

Arsenic_Touch

Iam_Epiphany wrote: »

I've contacted ZOS about the lack of information multiple times and been informed that the intention is to put us in the world with an organic level of information and have to learn things and work them out for ourselves.
I think it makes the game a lot more enjoyable to work these things out for ourselves, do testing and share our results.
Anyone else enjoying not being spoonfed indepth knowledge on the game?
No?
*crickets*

Maybe people are just lazy.

Translation: "It makes it easier to change things and players won't really know the difference because they didn't know the full score from the beginning!"

Maverick827

MAOofDC wrote: »

I have short answers for the OP. Yes NPC can crit. No we don't know the percentiles. It is low enough that putting anti-crit stat on your PvE gear is a waste.

What source do you have?

Rodario

Maverick827 wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I have short answers for the OP. Yes NPC can crit. No we don't know the percentiles. It is low enough that putting anti-crit stat on your PvE gear is a waste.

What source do you have?

I'd like to know that too, but it seems to be the consensus. I went with one impenetrable anyway just to be safe.

Qhival