Bigger Raids, 24 man

Popeguard

This is a simple poll to see what the community thinks about bigger raids other than 12 man ones.

I'm all up for 24 man raids, for the epicness of the number itself when fighting bosses.

I know that healing those numbers is a challenge.

All I want to know is if there is another number you guys want for PVE content, in the future, yes after the bugs are sorted out -.- jeez.

Makkir

Keep it at 12

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

Dovel

Keep it at 12

It would be nice, but sadly the mechanics we currently have would not support such a large group to effectively clear difficult content.

ferdiverbeekeb17_ESO2

Keep it at 12

No, 12 is too big for me already. Why isn't that a vote option?

Seems we can choose same or lots bigger.

Makkir

Keep it at 12

ferdiverbeekeb17_ESO2 wrote: »

No, 12 is too big for me already.

That's what she said

Popeguard

24

This is not taking gear into consideration, this is merely a numbers question.

In other games I always tanked and I had great pleasure in defending a horde of 20 man at my back, or healing even DPSing was great when I had 20 man at my side.

I have noticed in Hel Ra that sometimes the place just looks empty, great number of mobs (which I love, always outnumbered never outgunned situations)

Elloa

Keep it at 12

I prefer smaller group. Easier to organize without forcing guilds to recruit a lot.
12 is the size of 3 group, its good.

Audigy

anyother number

Open world yes, but not in an instance.

If you put a raid into an instance like now with the Trials or raids at WOW, then people will be left out from it either due their personal RL schedule, skill or just because they play the wrong class and have bad gear.

Its less about numbers but more about accessibility. A raid could have 100 people or 10 but would still be impossible to attend for people if its instanced.

Wifeaggro13

24

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

And crafting the best gear in game in 90 seconds is the dumbest idea for a theme park MMO i've ever experienced . If they are going to make this have any longevity with its current itemization all improvement rares purple and Gold need to be removed from refining and add to the loot tables of the VR group content.

Phantax

24

24's would be nice. Wouldn't really want to see it go any bigger unless Zeni could show us a real ground breaking raid for mega groups.
(not to say bigger groups aren't fun, but 24 is quite a manageable size)

Sunrock

24

With 24 man trials they could do more interesting game mecanics. AA AHC is very simple game mech. dungeons compard to other MMOs

Tavore1138

Keep it at 12

Unless you are a long time guild person even 12 person groups seem to be hard to find - bear in mind a lot of us come from the solo background, are willing to get into bigger groups but don't have the long term MMO backgrounds of some.

I see the established guilds running trials whereas newer players struggle to find groups because they don't meet the approved build standards. Or get abused and booted from pick up groups by... well, by the sort of people who you'd expect to behave like that.

I'm just starting to develop enough contacts to be able to reliably find 4 person groups for dungeons and Craglorn. 12 person groups for trials are a way off yet, I'd prefer not to have to try and find 24+ groups right now.

Tavore1138

Keep it at 12

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

And crafting the best gear in game in 90 seconds is the dumbest idea for a theme park MMO i've ever experienced . If they are going to make this have any longevity with its current itemization all improvement rares purple and Gold need to be removed from refining and add to the loot tables of the VR group content.

LOL if you can level crafting, gather and refine materials, learn traits and all in 90 seconds you have been cheating.

Sorry to say this game is also aimed at crafting, if you want to be having exclusive gear just for running a dungeon in less than 10 mins this may not be the game you are hoping for.

madangrypally

24

Here is what I would love to see:

24 Man Trials: There is at most 3 of these trials at one time. Once a new one is introduced then a previous one is adjusted and downgraded to 12 man size.

12 Man Trials: There is at most 3 of these trials at one time. Once a new one is introduced then a previous one is adjusted and downgraded to 4 man size.

4 Man groups/trials: There is at most 6 of these that used to be trials at one time. Once a new one is introduced then a previous one is adjusted and made into open world contested content of one of the above difficulty:

Open World Contested Content: There are many of these but the bosses have a very long random respawn timer. IE: 4-8 Hours on some and 16-24 hours on others. These are not all placed at maxed level and and placed where they are needed instead. IE: Some may be level 20 while some are VR12.

The gear will have to be adjusted each time as well as the difficulty but it would allow all players to see all content even after the game has been out for years.

ThisOnePosts

40

How can you all not want huge zerg Raids? Heck make 48 man or 60 man Raids, I'm all for it!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those who don't want to participate don't need to. Simple. Do this once you refine matchmaking or allow people to enter auto-grouping them (keeping them with the group they are already with as well) into instances. I've seen this done so many different ways, I'd be more than happy to lay out all of which were very successful.

Wifeaggro13

24

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

And crafting the best gear in game in 90 seconds is the dumbest idea for a theme park MMO i've ever experienced . If they are going to make this have any longevity with its current itemization all improvement rares purple and Gold need to be removed from refining and add to the loot tables of the VR group content.

LOL if you can level crafting, gather and refine materials, learn traits and all in 90 seconds you have been cheating.

Sorry to say this game is also aimed at crafting, if you want to be having exclusive gear just for running a dungeon in less than 10 mins this may not be the game you are hoping for.

Nah just mats i like crafting. and dungeons in 10 minutes are a design flaw not the fault of concept or application of a theme park game progression. There is no skill in crafting man its just time sink , if it were a EQ 2 type crafting system i would say its workable. this is just time sink just like VR lvl

Maverick827

24

There's a sweet spot with regards to how challenging a raid is and the number of players required for that raid wherein the content is still challenging and raid guilds are still easy to form and manage.

12 is not that number.

Perhaps 16 or 20 could work (four groups, five groups), but 24 would be good.

Popeguard

24

@ViciousWayz 60 player raids would be awesome but it would also be chaos. Love that idea and hate it at the same time, since huge numbers are awesome but they bring a world of pain to the leaders.

@Maverick827 I totally agree with you, one thing that was added in WoW was the flexible numbers raids, and I would love to see other group comps to see how they work and if they are doable

Braddass

Keep it at 12

You did not include a response for those of us that think 12 is too many.

I would prefer all content be 4 man (or 8 man at most). 12 is too many, but at least it is not as bad as the 20-40 man WoW raid groups.

Popeguard

24

@Braddass you are completely right I forgot to add 8 man or lower.

Makkir

Keep it at 12

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

And crafting the best gear in game in 90 seconds is the dumbest idea for a theme park MMO i've ever experienced . If they are going to make this have any longevity with its current itemization all improvement rares purple and Gold need to be removed from refining and add to the loot tables of the VR group content.

Um well because the Crafters (The players who want pure crafting characters) wouldn't have access to them...
The MMO world isn't Black and White. Stop with the tunnel vision. Adding tier gear isn't the end all solution to longevity. Star Wars Galaxies prior to the Garbage NGE lived long and prospered without raids. Lets put the focus on the player created content (Like Cyrodiil) and not add more mainstream elements.

I am VR2 now and have been playing since week 2 of Live Launch...playing in healthy amounts and casually. Maybe you guys who are "bored" should take a computer game in moderation, go get some physical exercise, build relationships, and stop living inside a pixel world. And then when you are bored because you speed race through content to cross the finish line, start taking away elements of the game that attracted certain groups of players (Like those who enjoy crafting and providing a service to other players).

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

where is the "no more trials" option?

Nox_Aeterna

Keep it at 12

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

I agree with this one.

The real issue with adding certain kinds of content is that the players are never satisfied with just having the content , they want rewards for doing said content also.

The usual logic behind group content is , bigger group = harder fight = better rewards.

This is not even true really :P , but that is the logic for people.

I dont have anything against 24/40/100 man raids as long as the rewards are exactly the same of the 12 man. People can chosse to do it for the fun of it or whatever , but not because it gives better rewards.

Nox_Aeterna

Keep it at 12

Also , stop crying about the fact that crafted gear is among the best in the game , this is one of the premises of this game which the devs promised us players.

By making crafted gear not equal to that of drops and such , the devs would be just making this game even more similar to the other MANY MMOs out there.

If anything that would be the dumb idea , since it would increase its competition even more.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

I agree with this one.

The real issue with adding certain kinds of content is that the players are never satisfied with just having the content , they want rewards for doing said content also.

The usual logic behind group content is , bigger group = harder fight = better rewards.

This is not even true really :P , but that is the logic for people.

I dont have anything against 24/40/100 man raids as long as the rewards are exactly the same of the 12 man. People can chosse to do it for the fun of it or whatever , but not because it gives better rewards.

I agree with this. I don't really like the trials altogether, and am irked that 1.4 is just bringing us more group pve content, but I realize there has to be something for everyone.

My problem is that the trials gear is starting to outshine crafting and pvp gear, which I do not like. I shouldn't have to do trials to be competitive in pvp.

Makkir

Keep it at 12

They can add raids and just vary the mechanics as well. Most MMOs add raids and then a gear benchmark which starts that upwards staircase. As an alternative, could add raids that have bosses that require differing strategies and skill checks to complete....Lightning damage, frost, melee attacks only, etc. We can design rewards that wont replace the gear crafters create.
Maybe one time use schematics for gear that require crafters to make, new motifs, mounts, pets, titles, keys/access to new dungeons/raids, potions/food/shards, vanity items, mats used in crafting, 2 hour buffs to help in Cyrodiil, etc.

Wifeaggro13

24

Makkir wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

And crafting the best gear in game in 90 seconds is the dumbest idea for a theme park MMO i've ever experienced . If they are going to make this have any longevity with its current itemization all improvement rares purple and Gold need to be removed from refining and add to the loot tables of the VR group content.

Um well because the Crafters (The players who want pure crafting characters) wouldn't have access to them...
The MMO world isn't Black and White. Stop with the tunnel vision. Adding tier gear isn't the end all solution to longevity. Star Wars Galaxies prior to the Garbage NGE lived long and prospered without raids. Lets put the focus on the player created content (Like Cyrodiil) and not add more mainstream elements.

I am VR2 now and have been playing since week 2 of Live Launch...playing in healthy amounts and casually. Maybe you guys who are "bored" should take a computer game in moderation, go get some physical exercise, build relationships, and stop living inside a pixel world. And then when you are bored because you speed race through content to cross the finish line, start taking away elements of the game that attracted certain groups of players (Like those who enjoy crafting and providing a service to other players).

the game has been out for 5 months. Anyone claiming people are rushing that are in Veteran rank content should actualy play the game for the 15 bucks a month they have been spending. you can be VR 12 playing 5 to 7 hours a week in 5 months.

And yes as i said i'm fine with people crafting the best gear in game . But mats and the ability to make the best quality gear in game (I.E. Mats like purple and gold improvements. Should be gotten from actually playing the games content?

If you don't want to play the games content you still would not have to you could purchase those mats from a guild store or a player in game. Just like the players who didn't bother Researching all 8 traits from day one of the game have to Buy white items from crafter's at 3 to 4 k a pop a piece for a 8 trait.SWG was never a Theme park MMO, it was always marketed as a sand box PVP game. there was no Dropped gear worth equipping in game other then appearance. that is the way sand box games work, gear decay a constant money sink of replacing gear form the crafters .

You could still sit at your crafting station never ever actually touching the Vr content ZOS poured hours into developing. You could still have some of the Best equipment in game( Thats how ZOS marketed it by the way ,they never said crafted would be the best gear in game which it currently is. they said crafted would be some of the best gear in Tamriel But you would need to at least interact with the people who do play the content by purchasing your improvements form them or a guild store.

So no its not black and white , but you should at the very least be required to interact with the game and community to have the best gear in game.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

And crafting the best gear in game in 90 seconds is the dumbest idea for a theme park MMO i've ever experienced . If they are going to make this have any longevity with its current itemization all improvement rares purple and Gold need to be removed from refining and add to the loot tables of the VR group content.

Um well because the Crafters (The players who want pure crafting characters) wouldn't have access to them...
The MMO world isn't Black and White. Stop with the tunnel vision. Adding tier gear isn't the end all solution to longevity. Star Wars Galaxies prior to the Garbage NGE lived long and prospered without raids. Lets put the focus on the player created content (Like Cyrodiil) and not add more mainstream elements.

I am VR2 now and have been playing since week 2 of Live Launch...playing in healthy amounts and casually. Maybe you guys who are "bored" should take a computer game in moderation, go get some physical exercise, build relationships, and stop living inside a pixel world. And then when you are bored because you speed race through content to cross the finish line, start taking away elements of the game that attracted certain groups of players (Like those who enjoy crafting and providing a service to other players).

the game has been out for 5 months. Anyone claiming people are rushing that are in Veteran rank content should actualy play the game for the 15 bucks a month they have been spending. you can be VR 12 playing 5 to 7 hours a week in 5 months.

And yes as i said i'm fine with people crafting the best gear in game . But mats and the ability to make the best quality gear in game (I.E. Mats like purple and gold improvements. Should be gotten from actually playing the games content?

If you don't want to play the games content you still would not have to you could purchase those mats from a guild store or a player in game. Just like the players who didn't bother Researching all 8 traits from day one of the game have to Buy white items from crafter's at 3 to 4 k a pop a piece for a 8 trait.SWG was never a Theme park MMO, it was always marketed as a sand box PVP game. there was no Dropped gear worth equipping in game other then appearance. that is the way sand box games work, gear decay a constant money sink of replacing gear form the crafters .

You could still sit at your crafting station never ever actually touching the Vr content ZOS poured hours into developing. You could still have some of the Best equipment in game( Thats how ZOS marketed it by the way ,they never said crafted would be the best gear in game which it currently is. they said crafted would be some of the best gear in Tamriel But you would need to at least interact with the people who do play the content by purchasing your improvements form them or a guild store.

So no its not black and white , but you should at the very least be required to interact with the game and community to have the best gear in game.

no, we shouldn't have to do pve and depend on the RNG to get crafting supplies. We shouldn't have to deal with the people that DO pve charging obscene prices for crafting mats.

This game has many avenues of play, your play shouldn't be superior to everyone else's.

Tavore1138

Keep it at 12

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am fine with raids as long as the gear doesn't outweigh the rest. This is not an upwards gear staircase like the 10000 other MMOs out there

And crafting the best gear in game in 90 seconds is the dumbest idea for a theme park MMO i've ever experienced . If they are going to make this have any longevity with its current itemization all improvement rares purple and Gold need to be removed from refining and add to the loot tables of the VR group content.

LOL if you can level crafting, gather and refine materials, learn traits and all in 90 seconds you have been cheating.

Sorry to say this game is also aimed at crafting, if you want to be having exclusive gear just for running a dungeon in less than 10 mins this may not be the game you are hoping for.

Nah just mats i like crafting. and dungeons in 10 minutes are a design flaw not the fault of concept or application of a theme park game progression. There is no skill in crafting man its just time sink , if it were a EQ 2 type crafting system i would say its workable. this is just time sink just like VR lvl

I don't know EQ2 so can't comment but of course it is a time sink, but a rewarding time sink if you like to craft & explore just as dungeons are a rewarding time sink if you like to kill monsters and bosses - I like to do a bit of both so I get the nest of both worlds (and sink a lot of time).

They could do with jazzing up both crafting and top boss loot, I hate beating a boss and ending up with a couple of shadowhide scraps. Equally I have burnt time crafting so I'd be annoyed if you could get a totally unbeatable set by just running a dungeon several times.

Everyone wants their favourite time sink to reward the best loot but that's just going to drive away other types of players so the best they can do is try to ensure that crafters can make very nice sets and delvers can find different but equally nice sets. And all the time they have to consider what those sets mean in PvP.

And they are also saddled with their promise that crafters would always be able to make the top equipment in the game.

NorthernFury

Keep it at 12

I for one have no interest in 24+ man raids anymore.

Makkir

Keep it at 12

@Wifeaggro13 I really don't want to get into this debate because it seriously is a bad idea. Although I do agree with some of your "sandbox" statements. Hell, I have been a huge advocate for gear decay since Day 1.
But honestly, you are suggesting that end game raids are the only source for purple and yellow crafting materials. What percentage of the player base is that? It wouldn't be me. You want to put the "best" gear in the hands of the smaller player percentage? Having those mats refined from raw materials gives every player, casual or hardcore, the opportunity RNG to get the materials needed to have yellow gear crafted.
Less focus on gear, more focus on player created content = WIN