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If they make Weapon and Spell damage effect both weapon and skills based on which one is highest...
ExiledKhallisi
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If they make Weapon and Spell damage effect both weapon and skills based on which one is highest there will be some serious issues I fear...
The most notable..
-Hybrid builds will be the only ones worth playing.
-Currently you can get much more weapon damage than spell damage.
-Why would anyone not jsut stack weapon damage? It seems Spell damage would get rendered obsolete because with weapon damage you could have the best of both worlds.
Anyone able to shed some more light on this? It seems like a terrible oversight from my point of view and what I've read about it so far. I may just be misunderstanding.
Edited by ExiledKhallisi on August 12, 2014 9:47PM The most notable..
-Hybrid builds will be the only ones worth playing.
-Currently you can get much more weapon damage than spell damage.
-Why would anyone not jsut stack weapon damage? It seems Spell damage would get rendered obsolete because with weapon damage you could have the best of both worlds.
Anyone able to shed some more light on this? It seems like a terrible oversight from my point of view and what I've read about it so far. I may just be misunderstanding.
>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<
||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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Obscure✭✭✭✭✭Here's the simplest way to put it:
Magicka is for both offense and defense.
Stamina is for either offense or defense.
If you spec hard into Stamina, your skill usage comes at the cost of being able to block, CC break, etc. If you spec hard into Magicka, your skill usage comes only at the cost of using other skills. If you scale everything based on which is highest the magicka specialized build remains supreme and now can be even more versatile with using weapon skills such as Invasion benefited by their spell damage. Sure, stamina specs could now do more damage with magicka based skills, but without light armor they do so without the resource recovery, resistance bypass, or cost reduction. It's an unsustainable burst spec.
Now being a hybrid is generally a good middle of the road as is, given you focus primarily on using magicka for offense and stamina for defense. If suddenly everything scaled off of which ever is highest, the hybrid becomes less viable. This is because the specilized build applies it's highest of the two to everything and the effort put in to get both at a median point by the hybrid is rendered a pointless exercise: either specialization will out damage you in both stamina and magicka based applications. Though you will be more sustainable than a pure stamina specialization, it's higher damage due to specialization being applied to it's magicka abilities will make it hit harder than you with those magicka abilities, despite having no attributes involved in boosting that damage that you have invested in as a hybrid.
In short making it scale off of one or the other continues to leave stamina specialization at a disadvantage, improves magicka specialization, and discourages any middle ground between them (hybrids).Edited by Obscure on August 12, 2014 7:22PM0 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭Here's the simplest way to put it:
Magicka is for both offense and defense.
Stamina is for either offense or defense.
If you spec hard into Stamina, your skill usage comes at the cost of being able to block, CC break, etc. If you spec hard into Magicka, your skill usage comes only at the cost of using other skills. If you scale everything based on which is highest the magicka specialized build remains supreme and now can be even more versatile with using weapon skills such as Invasion benefited by their spell damage. Sure, stamina specs could now do more damage with magicka based skills, but without light armor they do so without the resource recovery, resistance bypass, or cost reduction. It's an unsustainable burst spec.
Now being a hybrid is generally a good middle of the road as is, given you focus primarily on using magicka for offense and stamina for defense. If suddenly everything scaled off of which ever is highest, the hybrid becomes less viable. This is because the specilized build applies it's highest of the two to everything and the effort put in to get both at a median point by the hybrid is rendered a pointless exercise: either specialization will out damage you in both stamina and magicka based applications. Though you will be more sustainable than a pure stamina specialization, it's higher damage due to specialization being applied to it's magicka abilities will make it hit harder than you with those magicka abilities, despite having no attributes involved in boosting that damage that you have invested in as a hybrid.
In short making it scale off of one or the other continues to leave stamina specialization at a disadvantage, improves magicka specialization, and discourages any middle ground between them (hybrids).
Say that to stamina based sorc builds who have over 200 weapon damage stacking surge with other weapon damage abilities. Can you say 1 shotting people with Crystal Fragments?
>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War0 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »Here's the simplest way to put it:
Magicka is for both offense and defense.
Stamina is for either offense or defense.
If you spec hard into Stamina, your skill usage comes at the cost of being able to block, CC break, etc. If you spec hard into Magicka, your skill usage comes only at the cost of using other skills. If you scale everything based on which is highest the magicka specialized build remains supreme and now can be even more versatile with using weapon skills such as Invasion benefited by their spell damage. Sure, stamina specs could now do more damage with magicka based skills, but without light armor they do so without the resource recovery, resistance bypass, or cost reduction. It's an unsustainable burst spec.
Now being a hybrid is generally a good middle of the road as is, given you focus primarily on using magicka for offense and stamina for defense. If suddenly everything scaled off of which ever is highest, the hybrid becomes less viable. This is because the specilized build applies it's highest of the two to everything and the effort put in to get both at a median point by the hybrid is rendered a pointless exercise: either specialization will out damage you in both stamina and magicka based applications. Though you will be more sustainable than a pure stamina specialization, it's higher damage due to specialization being applied to it's magicka abilities will make it hit harder than you with those magicka abilities, despite having no attributes involved in boosting that damage that you have invested in as a hybrid.
In short making it scale off of one or the other continues to leave stamina specialization at a disadvantage, improves magicka specialization, and discourages any middle ground between them (hybrids).
Say that to stamina based sorc builds who have over 200 weapon damage stacking surge with other weapon damage abilities. Can you say 1 shotting people with Crystal Fragments?
Certainly. But it would be preaching to the choir. I've just described exactly what he's doing.0 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I have played around quite a bit with this. I have a very glass canon, Vampire Witch and a quite tough and durable tanky sorc.
No matter how I buff the tank he just cannot get through the game as well as my Vampire Witch. She has weapon power just because we need a weapon. It's good, I have my army of crafters and she gets nothing but the best but having her spell damage as good or higher than her weapon damage and a pile of spell critical trumps anything you can do with a weapon. She seldom uses hers. I used to try to weave it in but it decreases DPS. I use it on bosses when I run out of snap and don't really want to pop potions. The apparent glass canon has a stack of spell resist, it softcaps all the time, and that is crucial.
My tanky guy is fun but he just cannot bring as much pure smack to the party, even crit surged, as my witch. He can take much more physical damage but not as much spell damage and I can't really see a way around this.
I have a dedicated enchanter and the jewelery is better than anything you can find, as well as all armor and weapon's enchanted to what we need. The potions I run do:
200 spell critical for 10 sec (could be weapon crit}
Health now and over 10 sec
Magic now and over 10 sec
Another thing you will not find in the wild.
A tanky sorc is fun but not optimum in any way. Spell power trumps weapon power every time.
Edited by poodlemasterb16_ESO on August 12, 2014 9:05PM0 -
ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭You guys are either misunderstanding what im trying to say or I am not understanding you.
In 1.4 if they make it so Whichever one is higher is used....
People with stacked weapon power will be more powerful than other builds making spell power obsolete. This is a problem.>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War0 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »Here's the simplest way to put it:
Magicka is for both offense and defense.
Stamina is for either offense or defense.
If you spec hard into Stamina, your skill usage comes at the cost of being able to block, CC break, etc. If you spec hard into Magicka, your skill usage comes only at the cost of using other skills. If you scale everything based on which is highest the magicka specialized build remains supreme and now can be even more versatile with using weapon skills such as Invasion benefited by their spell damage. Sure, stamina specs could now do more damage with magicka based skills, but without light armor they do so without the resource recovery, resistance bypass, or cost reduction. It's an unsustainable burst spec.
Now being a hybrid is generally a good middle of the road as is, given you focus primarily on using magicka for offense and stamina for defense. If suddenly everything scaled off of which ever is highest, the hybrid becomes less viable. This is because the specilized build applies it's highest of the two to everything and the effort put in to get both at a median point by the hybrid is rendered a pointless exercise: either specialization will out damage you in both stamina and magicka based applications. Though you will be more sustainable than a pure stamina specialization, it's higher damage due to specialization being applied to it's magicka abilities will make it hit harder than you with those magicka abilities, despite having no attributes involved in boosting that damage that you have invested in as a hybrid.
In short making it scale off of one or the other continues to leave stamina specialization at a disadvantage, improves magicka specialization, and discourages any middle ground between them (hybrids).
Say that to stamina based sorc builds who have over 200 weapon damage stacking surge with other weapon damage abilities. Can you say 1 shotting people with Crystal Fragments?
I'm not quite getting this. Shards is magic, and yes the double hit can be brutal. Stacking weapon damage can generate some nice numbers, as long as surge runs, but even potioned into pretty amazing numbers, critical is not that huge. The ability to hit stuff hard over and over is what wins where I play.
Still I'm not that experienced in PvP so I'm really asking for a bit more explaining.0 -
SirJesto✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »You guys are either misunderstanding what im trying to say or I am not understanding you.
In 1.4 if they make it so Whichever one is higher is used....
People with stacked weapon power will be more powerful than other builds making spell power obsolete. This is a problem.
This is completely hypothetical and personally I wouldn't even worry about it unless there is some kind of developer discussion on the matter.0 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »If they make Weapon and Spell damage effect both weapon and skills based on which one is highest there will be some serious issues I fear...
The most notable..
-Hybrid builds will be the only ones worth playing.
-Currently you can get much more weapon damage than spell damage.
-Why would anyone not jsut stack weapon damage? It seems Spell damage would get rendered obsolete because with it you could have the best of both worlds.
Anyone able to shed some more light on this? It seems like a terrible oversight from my point of view and what I've read about it so far. I may just be misunderstanding.
Interesting point -- I often feel like "Hybrid builds will be the only ones worth playing." <<<<<<<<<<< is already the main intention of this MMO's dev team.
Guess we will have to wait and see on this also.
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »You guys are either misunderstanding what im trying to say or I am not understanding you.
In 1.4 if they make it so Whichever one is higher is used....
People with stacked weapon power will be more powerful than other builds making spell power obsolete. This is a problem.
Are you referring to this effect applying to Ultimates (which appears to already be in game) or are you referring to this effect applying to all skills in game?
If it is the latter, is there plans to do this? I've not read anywhere that the changes were meant to be for anything other than Ultimates..."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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SirJesto✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »You guys are either misunderstanding what im trying to say or I am not understanding you.
In 1.4 if they make it so Whichever one is higher is used....
People with stacked weapon power will be more powerful than other builds making spell power obsolete. This is a problem.
Are you referring to this effect applying to Ultimates (which appears to already be in game) or are you referring to this effect applying to all skills in game?
If it is the latter, is there plans to do this? I've not read anywhere that the changes were meant to be for anything other than Ultimates...
There are no plans to do this.
Useless OP is useless.1 -
Obscure✭✭✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »You guys are either misunderstanding what im trying to say or I am not understanding you.
In 1.4 if they make it so Whichever one is higher is used....
People with stacked weapon power will be more powerful than other builds making spell power obsolete. This is a problem.
You're not seeing that magicka will still provide higher sustainability, better gear support (sets and light armor in general), greater build versatility (more skills use magicka than stamina), and just plain better skills.
If they make it so, they will have accomplished nothing more than make magicka specialization even better, leave Stamina specialization largely unchanged (a bit more damage with magicka skills but still much lower sustainability), and make hybrids, that currently make concessions to get both to a fairly balanced point, relatively pointless when only the highest is going to be used anyhow.
Lots of good ways to try to fix the build inequalities, but this isn't one of them. Much easier to rework the deep down festering core of the problem: magicka risk/reward. Something as simple as making CC break, block, bash, sprint, sneak, and dodge consume 25% less stamina and 25% magicka per light armor piece worn, with 4 pieces being 100% stamina cost reduction but 100% magicka consumption. Or just deleting the whole skill line and making it be just clothing with no armor value, you know, like every other TES game did with good reason to preserve a level of game balance...well, at least while on the way to becoming god like. It might do good to go back to the good old days when light armor was leather and heavy was metal, and anything else was just a T-Shirt you could enchant...
... I'm rambling... Anyways, build inequality could be fixed, just not with this sort of elaborate attempt to make it look like they aren't still screwing over stamina specializations. Who cares if you can get weapon power slightly higher and use it instead of spell power for some kind of hybrid? Its not worth the sacrifices in sustainability to cap it right now, and it's not likely to change if you can use it for magicka skills too.0 -
killedbyping✭✭✭✭ExiledKhallisi wrote: »If they make Weapon and Spell damage effect both weapon and skills based on which one is highest there will be some serious issues I fear...
The most notable..
-Hybrid builds will be the only ones worth playing.
-Currently you can get much more weapon damage than spell damage.
-Why would anyone not jsut stack weapon damage? It seems Spell damage would get rendered obsolete because with weapon damage you could have the best of both worlds.
Anyone able to shed some more light on this? It seems like a terrible oversight from my point of view and what I've read about it so far. I may just be misunderstanding.
Every skill or Ultimate which scale with Weapon damage have less damage then if it would scale with Spell damage.
Reason are simply, All the skills scaled with Weapon damage scale veeeeeeeery poorly. You get almost no effect from 100 weapon damage, while every 10 points of spell damage give HUGE buff to skills damage.
So in the end, having twice as much weapon damage compared to Spell damage will still lead you to have LESS skills and Ultimate damage.Edited by killedbyping on August 13, 2014 6:21AM0