Templars broken healing tree

Guppet

I love that Templar is the only class with a dedicated healing tree. But that's kind of worthless when they need to equip the same healing staff that other healers use, due to mana issues.

I would very much like them to be able to be a competitive healer while not using a resto staff.

What I would like to see is a passive in the healing tree that works like this-

For each healing ability you have slotted your light attacks restore 0.5/1% of your total magica. (2 point skill, max regen is 3/6%)

It would be fairly unique and would give them the niche of melee healer meaning they may actually still be able to use heavy armour, assuming they regen enough magica with thier light attacks.

The need to have multiple healing abilities slotted, stops Dps from abusing it. If they have enough healing abilities slotted to restore much magica, they don't have many damage abilities.

It would then be a healer that works very much differently than resto staff users. Having the regen tied to light attacks stops it stacking with resto staffs heavy attack regen.

What suggestions do other people have to help fix Templar healers magica issues. Or feel free to critique my suggestion.

traigusb14_ESO2

Temps do need more mana regen.

You don't need a stick or a dress to heal though.

I have healed all VR dungeons except CoH with a Heavy armor templar (sword and shield).

Works fine in a non PUG when the players understand the Templar heals and how they work (which is different than the staff heals everyone sees 90% of the time).

The efficiency of staff healing lets people backstop "not as good" players by basically putting a lot more healing out there so the three stooges can live.

Templar only heals are balanced ok for a solid group of people who know what they are doing.

The first case is way more common in ESO though, especially with PUGs, so even a lot of Temps will staff heal to keep up with the 3 people soloing in the same place pretending to be a group.

Temp does need some kind of internal mana regen (which was removed in beta).

I'd like to see more on Heavy armor as well ,te new passive is ok, but still way low compared to light, and only works whiel getting hit.

Guppet

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Temps do need more mana regen.

You don't need a stick or a dress to heal though.

I have healed all VR dungeons except CoH with a Heavy armor templar (sword and shield).

Works fine in a non PUG when the players understand the Templar heals and how they work (which is different than the staff heals everyone sees 90% of the time).

The efficiency of staff healing lets people backstop "not as good" players by basically putting a lot more healing out there so the three stooges can live.

Templar only heals are balanced ok for a solid group of people who know what they are doing.

The first case is way more common in ESO though, especially with PUGs, so even a lot of Temps will staff heal to keep up with the 3 people soloing in the same place pretending to be a group.

Temp does need some kind of internal mana regen (which was removed in beta).

I'd like to see more on Heavy armor as well ,te new passive is ok, but still way low compared to light, and only works whiel getting hit.

It's quite reassuring that you have healed the VR dungeons with heavy and a sword/shield. That's pretty much as far as I'm wanting mine to go. Trials are just not making me interested.

Guess if can work as I want to do the content I want. Sucks for trials though lol.

cronius77b14_ESO

yeah i have to agree with triag here. As a vet templar our heals in guild groups work fine for dungeons and vr dungeons. People here try to pug and plow through content like its easy mode wow dungeons. They do not block or dodge they stand in stuff and then rage quit when they do not win. You do not need any resto staff to heal a good group as a templar but it does offer better healing in a pinch for stupid players. I also run in heavy armor and do dps and heal fine as long as Im playing with people that actually use teamspeak and play good together. We do have some mana management issues but that aside the healing tree works very well. AOE cleanse on a hot that lasts 20 seconds that anyone can use during that time is pretty sweet IMO plus we have strong aoe heals for solid fast regain. Though I will say I do wish we had the lifetap healing of resto on the level 38 ability that is a pretty sweet ability for clearing aoe trash in dungeons.

traigusb14_ESO2

Guppet wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Temps do need more mana regen.

You don't need a stick or a dress to heal though.

I have healed all VR dungeons except CoH with a Heavy armor templar (sword and shield).

Works fine in a non PUG when the players understand the Templar heals and how they work (which is different than the staff heals everyone sees 90% of the time).

The efficiency of staff healing lets people backstop "not as good" players by basically putting a lot more healing out there so the three stooges can live.

Templar only heals are balanced ok for a solid group of people who know what they are doing.

The first case is way more common in ESO though, especially with PUGs, so even a lot of Temps will staff heal to keep up with the 3 people soloing in the same place pretending to be a group.

Temp does need some kind of internal mana regen (which was removed in beta).

I'd like to see more on Heavy armor as well ,te new passive is ok, but still way low compared to light, and only works whiel getting hit.

It's quite reassuring that you have healed the VR dungeons with heavy and a sword/shield. That's pretty much as far as I'm wanting mine to go. Trials are just not making me interested.

Guess if can work as I want to do the content I want. Sucks for trials though lol.

Again, to be really clear, not PUGs...

Temps do need help, but aren't completely broken. The mechanics of temp spells are pretty different than resto, and people see resto all the time. So having VOIP and explaining what the sparklies do and the morphs you picked, helps.

For example. Casting a ground heal on the tank's area (extended duration morph and gives bonus to heals on anyone in circle), and having the DPS cross through it when they need topping up or need to Purify an enemy effect, is different than spamming staff regen so everyone gets one wherever they are standing. Knowing how it works, people can use it... or not.


Good utility spells can help keep everyone alive as well.
I'm also usually running AC/STA regen ground circle on tank and can lob a Blazing spear for some DPS and the tank to top off blocking sta (or to someone that is CCd and needs sta to get out). This all lowers the amount of healing I need to do.

I'm generally tank specced and not squishy, so if I draw aggro, I can sit behind a block until DPS, or tank gets rid of the jerks. I'm cheaper to heal than a DPS or a resto temp too because my blocking with S&B gets rid of a lot of the damage.

In the end, good groups are good, overlap skills and work together.

Borderline groups can get by on AOE spam and Resto overhealing sometimes and don't learn good habits/skills.

Bad groups die.

Temp heals are fine for good groups, but the MAG regen just doesn't have the staying power for bordeline ones usually, which is why so many people go resto.

Nobody can help the bad groups.

Xiroku

I kinda want them to change the Illuminate passive in the Dawn's Wrath tree. It apparently gives increased spell resistance while a Dawn's Wrath skill effect is on an enemy or something?.... That's kinda stupid, with light armor passive alone, you reach close to the soft cap. It could be turned into a magicka/stamina return of some kind, similar to maybe Burning Embers and what not, gain magicka/stamina based on damage dealt during the effect duration.

Tho, I prefer they overhual the whole magicka/health/stamina regen system and all the different return skills. There's no need for all these different reductions and fancy ways to gain back spent magicka/stamina. Base regen and pots are all we should need. Just make them all regen by a percent per 2 seconds, so the amount we get back will be based on the amount we have in each resource pool. I don't get why regen was turned into a stat.

traigusb14_ESO2

Xiroku wrote: »

I kinda want them to change the Illuminate passive in the Dawn's Wrath tree. It apparently gives increased spell resistance while a Dawn's Wrath skill effect is on an enemy or something?.... That's kinda stupid, with light armor passive alone, you reach close to the soft cap. It could be turned into a magicka/stamina return of some kind, similar to maybe Burning Embers and what not, gain magicka/stamina based on damage dealt during the effect duration.

Tho, I prefer they overhual the whole magicka/health/stamina regen system and all the different return skills. There's no need for all these different reductions and fancy ways to gain back spent magicka/stamina. Base regen and pots are all we should need. Just make them all regen by a percent per 2 seconds, so the amount we get back will be based on the amount we have in each resource pool. I don't get why regen was turned into a stat.

It isn't stupid for people not wearing light armor... like my buddy the 2H med armor DPS templar...

They do need untangle the spagetti of weird interactions though. It is what is making some combos way too OP.

drogon1

How can you heal without a resto staff as a templar? I agree with the OP. There is no templar healing without resto staff (mana regen) - UNLESS you choose to be a sub par healer who may run low on mana at precisely the time you'll need it to save your group.

But this issue goes beyond simply healing. My fire DK has been unable to use destro well due to mana issues.

traigusb14_ESO2

drogon1 wrote: »

How can you heal without a resto staff as a templar? I agree with the OP. There is no templar healing without resto staff (mana regen) - UNLESS you choose to be a sub par healer who may run low on mana at precisely the time you'll need it to save your group.

But this issue goes beyond simply healing. My fire DK has been unable to use destro well due to mana issues.

It is actually pretty easy with a good non-PUG.

I have good mana magicka regen, and good potions.

If I OOM and need a lot of Magicka to save a group, I'm not the one doing things wrong.

I mostly run ~50% in VR dungeons, with the exception of s few bosses that do pretty much whole room style baddness or have a very large number of adds. then I have to use potions.

It is amazing how much magika you can have left when DPS don't stand in the fire (and block when they get aggro), and the tank actually not only specs for tank, but has tanking jewelry, glyphs. etc.*

*Edit: Note this helps out Resto healers as well.

timidobserver

There is nothing that they can do that will make the optimal Templar healing build not include resto staff. Sure you can swing healing with just Templar skills in certain circumstances, but you will be underperforming without the resto staff.

AoEnwyr

I use a full set of heavy armour and swap between two handed sword and healing staff. Our healing tree has some excellent powers that can not be found anywhere else but there are powers on the resto staff that I personally would not be without.

traigusb14_ESO2

timidobserver wrote: »

There is nothing that they can do that will make the optimal Templar healing build not include resto staff. Sure you can swing healing with just Templar skills in certain circumstances, but you will be underperforming without the resto staff.

Nobody dies... what part of that is underperforming?

Temps could use more magicka regen, I'd love it.

Right now resto staff regen is also powering a lot of DPS builds... it is pretty much mandatory for al lthe cool kids to be Destro /resto becasue of resto regen... I'm betting on a resto regen nerf before anyone else gets buffed.

I'll still be fine.

Murmeltier

drogon1 wrote: »

How can you heal without a resto staff as a templar? I agree with the OP. There is no templar healing without resto staff (mana regen) - UNLESS you choose to be a sub par healer who may run low on mana at precisely the time you'll need it to save your group.

But this issue goes beyond simply healing. My fire DK has been unable to use destro well due to mana issues.

I think the same, it is interesting to have a Look on the Reasons.

First Reason why all Healer can have strong Mana Problems is the Group and their Teamwork.

Some Examples for normal and Veteran Content:

1. Players don`t know the Bosstactics. You can use what you want, the Group will mostly die very often. You can`t counter the Tons of Damage in the Veteran Dungeons a long Time without going oom if this happens.

2. Players don`t use Potions/Synergies or Skills like AOEs and CCs. It isn`t very funny to see some Players try to kill the Trashmobs one by one instead of using a CC or AOE. So the Rest of the Trashmobs run to the Healer and forces him to use additional Mana/Stamina or die.

A Healer can`t dodge or block this a long Time and heal the whole Group, while he is defending his own Life too. Yeah it looks cool if you smash one Mob with your Monster 2H Sword, like Conan the awesome truly only Barbarian but i can`t cheer and bow to you, because the other Mobs kill the whole Group .

3. Players should use the Synergies or Potions and use one protecting Skill, not only DPS Skills. As a DPS you don`t need 5 DPS Skills to do good Damage.

4. Movement. Hell as a Healer i could kick some DPS A**** if i see they don`t move away from the Red Areas, don`t block or try to stay in 6+ Trashmobs because they think the Healer has to save their Lives.

No Tank should try to tank all the Trashmobs, it would destroy his Stamina and then the Mana from the Healer. CC them, AOE them but stay away and don`t try to tank the whole Dungeon. No Armor or Skill counter this Damage in Vet Dungeons a long Time and if you run out of Stamina the Healer heals against the whole Damage.

CCS for Trash or AOEs are a Godsend Present for a Group.

As a Healer i run/dodge around to find a better Spot for the Healing but the most DPS run in different Directions North/South/East and West like they want to travel the whole Dungeon.

So they lose the passive Bonus from my Skills and i can`t split my Character to run behind them if they choose the Corners of the Rooms. I always concentrate my Heals on the Tank, if you run in another Room or far away you will die too.

Spells and passives have a limited Radius, they dont work to the Horizon you know ?

You see the HP Bars drop insanly fast to the Ground and try to counter that as a Healer, heal them several Times fully up and you can see your Mana fade away. And i use all Options the Game offers me, like Spellsymetrie/Potions or Restostaff with Light Armor. The Mana fades away with a bad Group.

But they don`t wanna listen because they are all Pros and want to run as fast as they can through the Dungeons. They will die through this unprofessional playing several Times and the Group needs more Time/Ressources to finish the Dungeon.

As a Healer this is very frustrating because you want to save the Group, this is why you choose this Class. But you can`t do this like in other Games with Tons of Mana and complex Spellsynergies, the System is more simple here and you don`t have the Ressources to do this alone.

So you definitely need a good Group if you want to heal without Light Armor or Restostaff, if you haven`t one it mostly never works. Without a good Group that doesn`t use CCs or AOEs you have to use Light Armor/Restostaff and if you have a bad Group with some Psychos in it, you need some "Valium" or you go crazy.

We all know we are mostly meet random Groups if we aren`t in PvE Guilds with a Plan. But not every one wants to be in a PvE Guild to to do Content or have Fun with healing Classes.

And we all know, there are some Players, every Time if a Thread like this raises, tell us they never ever had Problems and it is all fine if you L2P .

MFG Murmeltier.

traigusb14_ESO2

Murmeltier wrote: »

Some Examples for normal and Veteran Content:



2. Players don`t use Potions/Synergies or Skills like AOEs and CCs. It isn`t very funny to see some Players try to kill the Trashmobs one by one instead of using a CC or AOE. So the Rest of the Trashmobs run to the Healer and forces him to use additional Mana/Stamina or die.

A Healer can`t dodge or block this a long Time and heal the whole Group, while he is defending his own Life too. Yeah it looks cool if you smash one Mob with your Monster 2H Sword, like Conan the awesome truly only Barbarian but i can`t cheer and bow to you, because the other Mobs kill the whole Group .


4. Movement. Hell as a Healer i could kick some DPS A**** if i see they don`t move away from the Red Areas, don`t block or try to stay in 6+ Trashmobs because they think the Healer has to save their Lives.

No Tank should try to tank all the Trashmobs, it would destroy his Stamina and then the Mana from the Healer. CC them, AOE them but stay away and don`t try to tank the whole Dungeon. No Armor or Skill counter this Damage in Vet Dungeons a long Time and if you run out of Stamina the Healer heals against the whole Damage.


And we all know, there are some Players, every Time if a Thread like this raises, tell us they never ever had Problems and it is all fine if you L2P .

MFG Murmeltier.

BTW, I'm not saying L2P or that everyone sucks.. just that temp healers can run without dresses and staffs in groups that are good. People say "it can't be done" and they are wrong. temps do need more mana regen, but we aren't crippled without resto staff regen.

SOme points to your points.


2. (second part) Not true. depends on spec. I'm a heavy armor tank specced Temp. I often tank in the same gear. A Sword and board, heavy armor (hist bark set) Templar CAN dodge and block for a long time and not die while waiting for tank to grab a few mobs back. It is actually better for me to have aggro than the DPS... I take WAY less damage when blocking than they do. I do prefer the tank to have it though.


4 (second part) A good tank with actual tanking gear (like block reduction glyphs and good STA potions etc.) Can hold 6 mobs at VR12 pretty much forever without running out of STA. (Temp tanks can between our STA regen buff and potions anyway. Maybe DKs can't). If there are a lot of casters, you gotta move around a lot to avoid spells, because you can't bash everyone fast enough, but it isn't too hard with a lot of melee. When tanking a lot of mobs I use the Undaunted MAG based taunt to conserve STA (rather than use the Sword and shield STA based one)

You might be surprised how many tanks really have their gear set for more DPS solo builds than tanking, especially DKs. I see a lot of people think that just having Heavy armor and a shield makes them all set to tank high level content.. not true. Glyphs, traits, set bonuses etc. really help. (I use hist bark 5 piece because it makes me dodge while blocking 18% of the time (down from 20 in last patch). That is a huge number of hits in a fight with a lot of mobs.)

I play regularly with a very seriously made NB tank, and occasionally with his wife who has a pretty good Sorcerer light tank build (she is leveling a few more skills to get it completely specced out the way she wants)

Murmeltier

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

Murmeltier wrote: »

Some Examples for normal and Veteran Content:



2. Players don`t use Potions/Synergies or Skills like AOEs and CCs. It isn`t very funny to see some Players try to kill the Trashmobs one by one instead of using a CC or AOE. So the Rest of the Trashmobs run to the Healer and forces him to use additional Mana/Stamina or die.

A Healer can`t dodge or block this a long Time and heal the whole Group, while he is defending his own Life too. Yeah it looks cool if you smash one Mob with your Monster 2H Sword, like Conan the awesome truly only Barbarian but i can`t cheer and bow to you, because the other Mobs kill the whole Group .


4. Movement. Hell as a Healer i could kick some DPS A**** if i see they don`t move away from the Red Areas, don`t block or try to stay in 6+ Trashmobs because they think the Healer has to save their Lives.

No Tank should try to tank all the Trashmobs, it would destroy his Stamina and then the Mana from the Healer. CC them, AOE them but stay away and don`t try to tank the whole Dungeon. No Armor or Skill counter this Damage in Vet Dungeons a long Time and if you run out of Stamina the Healer heals against the whole Damage.


And we all know, there are some Players, every Time if a Thread like this raises, tell us they never ever had Problems and it is all fine if you L2P .

MFG Murmeltier.

BTW, I'm not saying L2P or that everyone sucks.. just that temp healers can run without dresses and staffs in groups that are good. People say "it can't be done" and they are wrong. temps do need more mana regen, but we aren't crippled without resto staff regen.

SOme points to your points.


2. (second part) Not true. depends on spec. I'm a heavy armor tank specced Temp. I often tank in the same gear. A Sword and board, heavy armor (hist bark set) Templar CAN dodge and block for a long time and not die while waiting for tank to grab a few mobs back. It is actually better for me to have aggro than the DPS... I take WAY less damage when blocking than they do. I do prefer the tank to have it though.


4 (second part) A good tank with actual tanking gear (like block reduction glyphs and good STA potions etc.) Can hold 6 mobs at VR12 pretty much forever without running out of STA. (Temp tanks can between our STA regen buff and potions anyway. Maybe DKs can't). If there are a lot of casters, you gotta move around a lot to avoid spells, because you can't bash everyone fast enough, but it isn't too hard with a lot of melee. When tanking a lot of mobs I use the Undaunted MAG based taunt to conserve STA (rather than use the Sword and shield STA based one)

You might be surprised how many tanks really have their gear set for more DPS solo builds than tanking, especially DKs. I see a lot of people think that just having Heavy armor and a shield makes them all set to tank high level content.. not true. Glyphs, traits, set bonuses etc. really help. (I use hist bark 5 piece because it makes me dodge while blocking 18% of the time (down from 20 in last patch). That is a huge number of hits in a fight with a lot of mobs.)

I play regularly with a very seriously made NB tank, and occasionally with his wife who has a pretty good Sorcerer light tank build (she is leveling a few more skills to get it completely specced out the way she wants)

Hm, maybe you have other Experience but i think you definitley read something in Part 2 (second Part) that is different i have written.

I said as a Healer, you can`t dodge a long Time and that is true. I explain, why i said this. As a pure Healer you run with 7/7 Light Armor/Restostaff and maxed Health and Magicka. Health is important too, because you can`t dodge everything.

You talk from a Spec with Heavy Armor/Hist Bark Set and Shield. Sure you can tank/dodge/block with this but you will never have so much Magicka like a Light Armor/Restostaff Healer have. Your Idea only works in good Groups, otherwise you are fast oom. You are more a Hybrid, not a pure Healer.

A Healer don`t wear a Plate Armor and uses Weapon/Shield because of the passives Skills from Light Armor, they never have enough Mana to save a random Group. You need all the Mana you can get.

I believe that you can heal in a good Group without Light Armor/Restostaff but how often you can heal random Groups in Veteran Dungeons? If they stay in Red Areas and do all the funny Things i have described before? You will run faster out of Mana than you can type oom.

Fact is, it depends strong on the Group you are in and that i have posted in my Thread before. So this Points aren`t wrong but for the 4th Point (second Part) i think you are right. Maybe i don`t have meet a good Tank with special Tankgear, thats right.

NerfEverything

The dedicated healer is not the best healer in the game and is probably one of the worst builds possible next to stamina. Templars are broken in more ways than one.

And how come Templar's healing passives don't apply to restro staff, but DK's flame passives apply to destro staffs?

ZOS hates templars. They broke them in beta and have been laughing at them since launch.

Tremulous

I roll a Nightblade and while I may not have a dedicated healing tree, I can stab things that heal other people

UrQuan

Tremulous wrote: »

I roll a Nightblade and while I may not have a dedicated healing tree, I can stab things that heal other people

This picture made my day.

Murmeltier

UrQuan wrote: »

Tremulous wrote: »

I roll a Nightblade and while I may not have a dedicated healing tree, I can stab things that heal other people

This picture made my day.

It looks like a Hybrid Templer, maybe the Fish&Stick Spec .

timidobserver

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

There is nothing that they can do that will make the optimal Templar healing build not include resto staff. Sure you can swing healing with just Templar skills in certain circumstances, but you will be underperforming without the resto staff.

Nobody dies... what part of that is underperforming?

Temps could use more magicka regen, I'd love it.

Right now resto staff regen is also powering a lot of DPS builds... it is pretty much mandatory for al lthe cool kids to be Destro /resto becasue of resto regen... I'm betting on a resto regen nerf before anyone else gets buffed.

I'll still be fine.

Sure I suppose this kind of mindset works if you are a casual, solo minded player. However, in end game group content you are expected to do everything you can to help the group. This means using skills,weapons, ect, when in a group, that you would not normally use.

traigusb14_ESO2

timidobserver wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

There is nothing that they can do that will make the optimal Templar healing build not include resto staff. Sure you can swing healing with just Templar skills in certain circumstances, but you will be underperforming without the resto staff.

Nobody dies... what part of that is underperforming?

Temps could use more magicka regen, I'd love it.

Right now resto staff regen is also powering a lot of DPS builds... it is pretty much mandatory for al lthe cool kids to be Destro /resto becasue of resto regen... I'm betting on a resto regen nerf before anyone else gets buffed.

I'll still be fine.

Sure I suppose this kind of mindset works if you are a casual, solo minded player. However, in end game group content you are expected to do everything you can to help the group. This means using skills,weapons, ect, when in a group, that you would not normally use.

People seem to keep missing this bit:

I've healed (and tanked) all VR dungeons except CoH... I've not done trials (no dress and staff). I am not casual or solo. (It is actually harder to heal random solo and casual players)

I''m about 1/2 done with Craiglorn story , but I changed work times with a new job (with days off during the week), and most of my friends (who have weekends off) are phased past where I am, otherwise I'd be done with that too (and CoH).

timidobserver

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

There is nothing that they can do that will make the optimal Templar healing build not include resto staff. Sure you can swing healing with just Templar skills in certain circumstances, but you will be underperforming without the resto staff.

Nobody dies... what part of that is underperforming?

Temps could use more magicka regen, I'd love it.

Right now resto staff regen is also powering a lot of DPS builds... it is pretty much mandatory for al lthe cool kids to be Destro /resto becasue of resto regen... I'm betting on a resto regen nerf before anyone else gets buffed.

I'll still be fine.

Sure I suppose this kind of mindset works if you are a casual, solo minded player. However, in end game group content you are expected to do everything you can to help the group. This means using skills,weapons, ect, when in a group, that you would not normally use.

People seem to keep missing this bit:

I've healed (and tanked) all VR dungeons except CoH... I've not done trials (no dress and staff). I am not casual or solo. (It is actually harder to heal random solo and casual players)

I''m about 1/2 done with Craiglorn story , but I changed work times with a new job (with days off during the week), and most of my friends (who have weekends off) are phased past where I am, otherwise I'd be done with that too (and CoH).

You can run whatever you want. However, without the staff and light armor you will be underperforming. A healer of equal skill with a staff and light armor will heal better than you. Your group may get through faster or see less average deaths if you were to use the staff.

You are just building walls for yourself by being close-minded. As you have already pointed out, you will likely never heal trials without it. Though, you may get to tank it unless you are similarly unwilling to slot certain skills that are often required at certain stages.

When I am on my own time I run all manner of weird builds. When in a group I aim to be the best that I can contrive to be using anything that helps.