Masser and Secunda always the same phase

Enodoc

I was wondering if anyone has any insight on this. There are sixteen known "forms" of Khajiit (not counting the Mane), which are dependent on the moon phases. However, the moons are always at the same phase as each other. While I expect it's probably technically easier to run the moons in co-phase, it's an established part of the lore that their phases do not run in-sync.

So if anyone has any reasoning why the moons are always at the same phase as each other that fits with lore, or has any other views about this, go ahead!

Enkil

Phase-locking or Tidal-lock generally only occurs in a binary system according to the laws of physics. For instance, Earth is Tidal-locked with its moon because there are only two bodies interacting gravitationally on each other besides the local star (the sun) which still exerts a minor influence on both.... Similarly, Pluto and its moon Charon are tidal-locked.... This phase-locking only occurs when a planet has a single relatively large moon (which in our solar system only happens with Earth and Pluto).

When tidal-lock occurs, the same face of the small body always faces that of it's larger orbital partner... (this is why we always see the same side of the moon)... and it determines its revolutionary period as well.

In a system with a planet and 2 moons of the sizes involved with Nirn, synchronous phasing is extremely unlikely and next to impossible. All three bodies would exert gravitational effect on one another and would distort each others' orbits.

Shunravi

Enkil wrote: »

Phase-locking or Tidal-lock generally only occurs in a binary system according to the laws of physics. For instance, Earth is Tidal-locked with it's moon because there are the only two bodies interacting gravitationally on each other besides the local star (the sun) which still has a minor influence on both.... Similarly, Pluto and its moon Charon are tidal-locked.... This phase-locking only occurs when planet has a relatively large moon (which in our solar system only happens with Earth and Pluto).

When tidal-lock occurs, the same face of the small body always faces that of it's larger orbital partner... (this is why we always see the same side of the moon)... and it determines its revolutionary period as well.

In a system with a planet and 2 moons of the sizes involved with Nirn, synchronous phasing is extremely unlikely and next to impossible. All three bodies would have a gravitational effect on one another and would distort each others' orbits.

So not only do the phases of the moon go against lore, but physics as well... That's two strikes. And not seeing other khajiit breeds is growing to be a third.

Enkil

It should only involve a little Calculus to get it all right.. wasn't the phasing astronomically accurate in Skyrim? Perhaps the dev's need to look there for the answer...

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

What has tidal lock, which you clearly explain, got to do with moon phases as the OP is talking about?

Moon phases are a result of moon/planet/sun position, I don't see any connection with the concept of tidal lock.

Enodoc

Enkil wrote: »

It should only involve a little Calculus to get it all right.. wasn't the phasing astronomically accurate in Skyrim? Perhaps the dev's need to look there for the answer...

I was trying to remember Skyrim and I honestly just can't remember. I do remember that it was like it in Oblivion though, as the Orrery showed the moons in phase-lock.

Enkil

In order for them to always maintain an identical phase relative to Nirn, they would both have to both be phase locked.....

Lynx7386

In a system with a planet and 2 moons of the sizes involved with Nirn, synchronous phasing is extremely unlikely and next to impossible. All three bodies would exert gravitational effect on one another and would distort each others' orbits.

You forget, though, that Masser and secunda arent really moons, they're gods =P Jone and Jode, yea?

So not only do the phases of the moon go against lore, but physics as well... That's two strikes. And not seeing other khajiit breeds is growing to be a third.

We have 4 khajiit breeds in the game at the moment, as far as I've identified:
-Suthay/Suthay-Raht (The playable race and what most khajiit npcs are)
-Senche (all over the place, both as friendly and hostile npcs, some named and some generic senche tigers, and a few even help you in quests)
-Alfiq (all over the place in dominion zones, especially khenarthi's roost, as named housecats).
-The Mane

Trouvo

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

What has tidal lock, which you clearly explain, got to do with moon phases as the OP is talking about?

Moon phases are a result of moon/planet/sun position, I don't see any connection with the concept of tidal lock.

He was either
a) Trying to prove his intelligence
b)provide further backing for the OP in the fact that physics proves such is not possible and further proof that it is something that immersion players would greatly appreciate
c)Provide proof that there could be no lore to it since lore within the game still follows physics and the laws therein in logical scenarios
d)both b and c
e)all of the above
f) Muffins

Enodoc

Lynx7386 wrote: »

In a system with a planet and 2 moons of the sizes involved with Nirn, synchronous phasing is extremely unlikely and next to impossible. All three bodies would exert gravitational effect on one another and would distort each others' orbits.

You forget, though, that Masser and secunda arent really moons, they're gods =P Jone and Jode, yea?

So not only do the phases of the moon go against lore, but physics as well... That's two strikes. And not seeing other khajiit breeds is growing to be a third.

We have 4 khajiit breeds in the game at the moment, as far as I've identified:
-Suthay/Suthay-Raht (The playable race and what most khajiit npcs are)
-Senche (all over the place, both as friendly and hostile npcs, some named and some generic senche tigers, and a few even help you in quests)
-Alfiq (all over the place in dominion zones, especially khenarthi's roost, as named housecats).
-The Mane

It would be interesting to know how many of those small housecats are "cats" and how many are "Khajiit". I would imagine a Khajiit would name their cat with a Khajiiti name anyway even if it is not Alfiq.

Shunravi

Lynx7386 wrote: »

In a system with a planet and 2 moons of the sizes involved with Nirn, synchronous phasing is extremely unlikely and next to impossible. All three bodies would exert gravitational effect on one another and would distort each others' orbits.

You forget, though, that Masser and secunda arent really moons, they're gods =P Jone and Jode, yea?

So not only do the phases of the moon go against lore, but physics as well... That's two strikes. And not seeing other khajiit breeds is growing to be a third.

We have 4 khajiit breeds in the game at the moment, as far as I've identified:
-Suthay/Suthay-Raht (The playable race and what most khajiit npcs are)
-Senche (all over the place, both as friendly and hostile npcs, some named and some generic senche tigers, and a few even help you in quests)
-Alfiq (all over the place in dominion zones, especially khenarthi's roost, as named housecats).
-The Mane

We also have, based on structural comparison, senche-rhat skulls all over the place. Not only that, but in the bone orchard, they are shown to be sentient (or at least excellent mediums)

Similar, no? That's a Bengal tiger skull.

My quip is that there are few actual acknowledgements of khajiit breed relationships. But there are some, and it should be easy to expand in time.

Enkil

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

What has tidal lock, which you clearly explain, got to do with moon phases as the OP is talking about?

Moon phases are a result of moon/planet/sun position, I don't see any connection with the concept of tidal lock.

My explanation was trying to provide a real world analogy that we are all familiar with. If you want to look at it from a lore perspective, it's obvious they they should not appear in the same phase at all times. Indeed, the birth signs of the previous games are influcenced by the phases of the moon...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Astronomy#Constellations

"Above Nirn there are two moons: Masser, also known as Jode or Mara's Tear; [1] and Secunda, also known as Jone or Stendarr's Sorrow.[1] Masser is the larger of the two, well over twice as large by appearance. Since Secunda is sometimes seen to transit Masser, it is clear that Masser is indeed larger, not closer.Note 1 In Khajiiti legend, the motion of the moons constructs something called the "Lunar Lattice", which protects Mundus from the rest of Aetherius. [2] Khajiit are born in differing forms depending on the current phases of the moons. See Khajiiti Morphology for details."

If Secunda transits Masser, they cannot both be phase locked...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit#Morphology