Immovable and All Light Armor in PVP

Cody

just make it to where to use an armor ability, you need 5 or more of the pieces. im not going to reply to anyone, as im not getting into forum war about it. all I ask, is that you don't dislike this idea simply because its your play style. have an actual good reason:)

pitdemon_ESO

While they're at it, change Evasion from the Medium tree to something actually worth slotting please.

Maybe something NOT totally useless and completely rehashed in the NB skill line maybe?

Cody

pitdemon_ESO wrote: »

While they're at it, change Evasion from the Medium tree to something actually worth slotting please.

Maybe something NOT totally useless and completely rehashed in the NB skill line maybe?

make it a passive and replace the empty skill tree ability with something else

Anomaly 2

Haha been doing this for awhile now as a light armour user. When I first figured out I could use it without any heavy armour on my first thought was " there's going to be a forum about this being OP and not fair and it needs to be fixed" and here it is haha! Took long enough for someone to bring it up though lmao. My only real question is can the other two armour abilities be used by players not using that armour type? For instance can a heavy armour 7/7 player use Evasion under the medium armour tree? If not then I think there is a huge problem and it needs to be fixed. If everyone can use all the armour abilities as long as they have that skill the required level then I don't see the problem with it.
Now this is because the morphs are completely useless without actually using the armour type( The morphs effects all state they are increased per piece of that armour type and without any of that armour type the effects are 0 percent )
So the abilities are better for those who use the right armour type for the skill... So I would leave it as working as intended.

Cody

Anomaly 2 wrote: »

Haha been doing this for awhile now as a light armour user. When I first figured out I could use it without any heavy armour on my first thought was " there's going to be a forum about this being OP and not fair and it needs to be fixed" and here it is haha! Took long enough for someone to bring it up though lmao. My only real question is can the other two armour abilities be used by players not using that armour type? For instance can a heavy armour 7/7 player use Evasion under the medium armour tree? If not then I think there is a huge problem and it needs to be fixed. If everyone can use all the armour abilities as long as they have that skill the required level then I don't see the problem with it.
Now this is because the morphs are completely useless without actually using the armour type( The morphs effects all state they are increased per piece of that armour type and without any of that armour type the effects are 0 percent )
So the abilities are better for those who use the right armour type for the skill... So I would leave it as working as intended.

.... but its a heavy armor skill.... and it lets you use it with no heavy armor on..... ya know what? I said I would not argue, and I meant it. ill leave you to your playstyle. as long as you don't start hacking it wont be THAT much of a problem.
oh and btw. evasion is garbage. its only a 15% chance. meaning 3/20 hits will be dodged..... idk anyone who uses it:(

Durham

krim wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Yes balance a skill everyone can use... You forget that the morphs of immovable (Immovable Brute, Unstoppable) are stronger with more heavy armor on.

Just stop plz.

Exactly, anyone should not be able to use it unless they are actually using heavy armor. You don't need the morphs, the base ability is already rediculously power when combined with light armor.

You cannot seriously tell me this is balanced and should be allowed the way it is. Don't try to justify it just because it is part of your play style, you know it is bad for the game

Immovable is good in what ever armor. Light armor doesnt make immovable better. Immovable is a strong skill especially in pvp. Theres nothing unbalanced about a skill everyone can use. In fact wearing heavy armor either increases melee dmg or increases the buff time so you don have to recast it as often.

Maybe you should try incorporating immovable into your builds. See if you can come up with a seven light armor build to keep immovable up 100% of the time while in combat.

Increase damage? Lol how about lower damage due to no crit ability... buff times are to small and are not even worth the morph....

krim

Durham wrote: »

Increase damage? Lol how about lower damage due to no crit ability... buff times are to small and are not even worth the morph....

Yeah i know right a 8 second buff that cost a decent amount of stamina to cast that everyone can use. This is such a problem ahhhh QQ.

pitdemon_ESO

Anomaly 2 wrote: »

My only real question is can the other two armour abilities be used by players not using that armour type? For instance can a heavy armour 7/7 player use Evasion under the medium armour tree? If not then I think there is a huge problem and it needs to be fixed. If everyone can use all the armour abilities as long as they have that skill the required level then I don't see the problem with it.
Now this is because the morphs are completely useless without actually using the armour type( The morphs effects all state they are increased per piece of that armour type and without any of that armour type the effects are 0 percent )
So the abilities are better for those who use the right armour type for the skill... So I would leave it as working as intended.

The problem is that noone is going to ever use Annulment or Evasion over Unstoppable.
We aren't talking about niche abilities that are better in certain situations, Unstoppable is ALWAYS better at ALL times under ANY circumstance.

If they restricted Unstoppable to 5 Heavy armor pieces it might actually give people a reason to use it. Also, just because people use something doesn't mean it was "intended". See dev reactions to Emperor farming or Light Attack canceling for proof on that end.

SBR_QuorTek

Illumous wrote: »

If immovable required 5 pieces of heavy armor to use, it would make heavy a much more attractive armor type to use despite the underwhelming passives.

5 Pieces of Heavy armor to use that skill would seem appropiate.

My additional suggestion would be like having rapid maneuver only adding a speed buff to group and no actual immunities as well, maybe increase the speed buff by 10% or something.

Galrukh

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Illumous wrote: »

If immovable required 5 pieces of heavy armor to use, it would make heavy a much more attractive armor type to use despite the underwhelming passives.

5 Pieces of Heavy armor to use that skill would seem appropiate.

My additional suggestion would be like having rapid maneuver only adding a speed buff to group and no actual immunities as well, maybe increase the speed buff by 10% or something.

Or drastically reduce the number of people it affects, its pretty silly atm.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Everyone that is defending the immovable trait being made available to light armor wearers clearly is using it with light armor builds. Everyone should not have access to it unless they are wearing heavy armor. Why not just let me use impulse with my sword and shield. It's makes just as much sense. It's practically an exploit as it is now so just be happy you have been allowed to cheat for as long as you have.

eventide03b14a_ESO

NookyZooky wrote: »

just make it to where to use an armor ability, you need 5 or more of the pieces. im not going to reply to anyone, as im not getting into forum war about it. all I ask, is that you don't dislike this idea simply because its your play style. have an actual good reason:)

I completely agree. I think you should be able to keep the passives as they scale with the amount of pieces you equip, but the active abilities should be 5 piece armor based. All of them.

Kewljag_66_ESO

Anomaly 2 wrote: »

Haha been doing this for awhile now as a light armour user. When I first figured out I could use it without any heavy armour on my first thought was " there's going to be a forum about this being OP and not fair and it needs to be fixed" and here it is haha! Took long enough for someone to bring it up though lmao. My only real question is can the other two armour abilities be used by players not using that armour type? For instance can a heavy armour 7/7 player use Evasion under the medium armour tree? If not then I think there is a huge problem and it needs to be fixed. If everyone can use all the armour abilities as long as they have that skill the required level then I don't see the problem with it.
Now this is because the morphs are completely useless without actually using the armour type( The morphs effects all state they are increased per piece of that armour type and without any of that armour type the effects are 0 percent )
So the abilities are better for those who use the right armour type for the skill... So I would leave it as working as intended.

The problem is the Immovable combined with all light armor. You can look at the other two armor skills and use them with any armor type and its just a small effect on those players.

Now look at Immovable which is hand downs a way stronger base ability to begin with.

When used with heavy armor that player cant be CCd and has greater suvivability but they arent putting out high damage or endless heals.

Now look at it with Light Armor, the player is putting out high damage, has a longer lasting mana pool for heals AND the problem is there is no way to stop them and they basically have tank survivability.

When you have high damage out put and almost endless heals the only counter is CC, but immovable removes that. And Immovable uses a free resource t these players because it stamina.

Now if Immovable used magika it would change things because then those players would have a tough time keeping it all going with everything using magika but its not its their free resource of stamina.

Anomaly 2

Yeah I get entirely what everyone means by it, its an amazing ability especially OP for light armour user hence why I use it lol. During combat I'm going to be hard CC'd and its going to be cheaper to keep immovable up rather then break out of that hard CC. I was just making the point the ability is better for those that wear 7/7 heavy armour i.e of the morphs. I also use the morph of annulment called harness magicka and its a down right awesome ability. I have never used evasion so I have no idea how good it would be I was just thinking in terms of if you use it in turn with the Hist Bark set it could give you some incredible dodge. With that being said I would have no issues with them changing it so you have to use at least 5 pieces of that armour type to use the armour ability of that armour type. My build wouldn't become broken without it and it might balance the game out a little bit more for those heavy armour users. I just see what ZOS was thinking with using the morphs to be the plus of wearing that armour type, and unsure they are going to change anything any time soon about it. Also for that post about to emp farming on here ... they have already stated they are eyeing the situation and have made changes in 1.3 ( fewer campaigns and more AP needed to become emp) that will make it harder for anyone to do this. This really should correct the situation and we will have to wait and see. We should really keep these forums posts to only the forum topic.
@NookyZooky‌ I wouldn't take it as arguing only discussing the game, we all want to see the game more balanced without incredibly nerfing or destroying anything in the process . As long as a post isn't bashing a player then say what you want to say.. Zenni reads these posts and its the only way for them to get the players perspective on what is going on so it's important for you to give your opinion!

Cody

since evasion has been bought up numerous times, ZOS, something needs to be done about it. a 15% chance to dodge? if its that low, it needs to be a passive. either increase the dodge chance HEAVILY or make it a passive and replace it with something else. I refuse to even unlock it, as it would be a waste of a skill point and a waste of a slot.

Grim13

Hmmm...

Light armour wearers can cast class skills while blocking AND use heavy amour skills without wearing heavy armour...

LOL

Sounds to me like a wannabe-mage developer wanted to have his cake and eat it too!!

Galrukh

Grim13 wrote: »

Hmmm...

Light armour wearers can cast class skills while blocking AND use heavy amour skills without wearing heavy armour...

LOL

Sounds to me like a wannabe-mage developer wanted to have his cake and eat it too!!

At this point Im sure the dev in question must have OD'ed on cake.
Every day Im puzzled how light armor ever made it out of alpha, not to mention beta.

Snit

One alternative would be to reduce Immovable's base duration to five seconds, then add one second for each piece of heavy armor equipped. There's already a morph that does this, but it should be core to the ability and the difference should be more dramatic.

TheBull

I love this community, Nice post OP. Atleast 1 or 2 pieces imo.

bump for justice, hope devs take a look.

edit- *nod* to the poster above me. I agree.

Talcyndl

krim wrote: »

Yes balance a skill everyone can use... You forget that the morphs of immovable (Immovable Brute, Unstoppable) are stronger with more heavy armor on.

Just stop plz.

Except the morphs are not much value in Cyrodiil. Yes, a bit of weapon damage or extra time is nice, but Immovable is INCREDIBLY valuable unmorphed. In fact, it is basically required.

Rune_Relic

Why stop there ? why not make all armour passives require that you have 5 pieces worn for them to be active ?

Vizier

Forget 5/7 split. Make it a 7/7 split to utilize the skill and extend it a couple seconds.

Makes sense to me. Good topic bro.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

krim wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Yes balance a skill everyone can use... You forget that the morphs of immovable (Immovable Brute, Unstoppable) are stronger with more heavy armor on.

Just stop plz.

Exactly, anyone should not be able to use it unless they are actually using heavy armor. You don't need the morphs, the base ability is already rediculously power when combined with light armor.

You cannot seriously tell me this is balanced and should be allowed the way it is. Don't try to justify it just because it is part of your play style, you know it is bad for the game

Immovable is good in what ever armor. Light armor doesnt make immovable better. Immovable is a strong skill especially in pvp. Theres nothing unbalanced about a skill everyone can use. In fact wearing heavy armor either increases melee dmg or increases the buff time so you don have to recast it as often.

Maybe you should try incorporating immovable into your builds. See if you can come up with a seven light armor build to keep immovable up 100% of the time while in combat.

Well it would still be use able by everyone if it required 5 heavy armor but it would actually make people who were playing tank be able to use it and play the role it was implemented to serve not the unstoppable dps role it serves now. So then yes as described you could take it to increase your survivabilit but decrease your dps via less resource management. I agree the armor skills actives should require a 5 piece set to use. It would create more diversity by stopping tanks from putting out insane damage with such high survivability and also the other way around making dps more survivable avoiding most cc basically for free. Not to mention balancing stamina vs Magick a bit more. Since classes that don't use stamina for anything but this particular skill would not have any unused bar that increased their survivability exponentially vs heavy stamina users.

SBR_QuorTek

krim wrote: »

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Yes balance a skill everyone can use... You forget that the morphs of immovable (Immovable Brute, Unstoppable) are stronger with more heavy armor on.

Just stop plz.

Exactly, anyone should not be able to use it unless they are actually using heavy armor. You don't need the morphs, the base ability is already rediculously power when combined with light armor.

You cannot seriously tell me this is balanced and should be allowed the way it is. Don't try to justify it just because it is part of your play style, you know it is bad for the game

Immovable is good in what ever armor. Light armor doesnt make immovable better. Immovable is a strong skill especially in pvp. Theres nothing unbalanced about a skill everyone can use. In fact wearing heavy armor either increases melee dmg or increases the buff time so you don have to recast it as often.

Maybe you should try incorporating immovable into your builds. See if you can come up with a seven light armor build to keep immovable up 100% of the time while in combat.

Well it would apply to all other types of armor special skill... there should be some 'penalty' 5/7 heavy armor for it being usefull is a great idea.

You don't need to keep immoveable up for like 1 hour, being able to keep it going for like 24 seconds or something doing an assault is not difficult either or more, it is not rocket science to see how powerfull the skill is and that it should not just be for everyone, but for the armor type that wield it mainly.

Furthermore they should do the same to rapid maneuver but in another way, reduce the immune duration to like 4 seconds or something for then once used in group it would cause a 1 minute CD to all before it can be used again also group purge should have a CD.

krim

A skill that can be used by everyone currently. I dont see how making immovable only usable once you have 5 heavy equipped makes the game more diverse. This type of change wont benefit anyone. The people who currently know how to build their characters right (skills,gear,etc) will continue to give people who dont something to complain about.

You folks are acting like its a I WIN button but its far from it. Its like you see something and come to the forums talking like you read the whole book but are actually just looking at the cover.

pitdemon_ESO

krim wrote: »

A skill that can be used by everyone currently. I dont see how making immovable only usable once you have 5 heavy equipped makes the game more diverse. This type of change wont benefit anyone. The people who currently know how to build their characters right (skills,gear,etc) will continue to give people who dont something to complain about.

You folks are acting like its a I WIN button but its far from it. Its like you see something and come to the forums talking like you read the whole book but are actually just looking at the cover.

Just because something can be used by everyone isn't really a good qualifier for whether or not it requires adjustment.

Looking at the vampire and weapon skill nerfs, ZOS doesn't think so either

krim

pitdemon_ESO wrote: »

krim wrote: »

A skill that can be used by everyone currently. I dont see how making immovable only usable once you have 5 heavy equipped makes the game more diverse. This type of change wont benefit anyone. The people who currently know how to build their characters right (skills,gear,etc) will continue to give people who dont something to complain about.

You folks are acting like its a I WIN button but its far from it. Its like you see something and come to the forums talking like you read the whole book but are actually just looking at the cover.

Just because something can be used by everyone isn't really a good qualifier for whether or not it requires adjustment.

Looking at the vampire and weapon skill nerfs, ZOS doesn't think so either

Its funny because immovable doesnt even do any damage. A buff which last 8 seconds, and costs a decent amount of stamina is some how now OP. Did i forget to mention anyone can use it as long as you lvled up heavy armor.

Whos fault is it when someone shows up to play basketball in flip flops when you should be using sneakers. Then you go and complain because everyone is using sneakers.

Galrukh

The problem is that yes everyone should be wearing sneakers, however we were told that wearing any type of footwear was viable.
If heavy armor was as viable in the game as light armor is, then we probably wouldnt see anywhere near the numbers of posts like these.
But the fact is that the one good thing about heavy armor (immovable), is also usable by the far superior light armor and that feels wrong to many.
So once ZoS gets their mind around to nerfing light armor and boosting the other 2, then these requrests might go away.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

Snit wrote: »

One alternative would be to reduce Immovable's base duration to five seconds, then add one second for each piece of heavy armor equipped. There's already a morph that does this, but it should be core to the ability and the difference should be more dramatic.

I'd be fine with a change like thus but instead of base 5 make it base 1 and 1 second per piece up to the 8 seconds it provides now with none. That would be much more fitting so people could do 5 light 2 heavy for a 3 second buff but it would make heavy armor much more desirable to the tank population instead of dresses. It would also make people be more selective about engaging cause now you can actually be ccd.

SBR_QuorTek

krim wrote: »

A skill that can be used by everyone currently. I dont see how making immovable only usable once you have 5 heavy equipped makes the game more diverse. This type of change wont benefit anyone. The people who currently know how to build their characters right (skills,gear,etc) will continue to give people who dont something to complain about.

You folks are acting like its a I WIN button but its far from it. Its like you see something and come to the forums talking like you read the whole book but are actually just looking at the cover.

Fixing that among a bunch of other things, would make it a better game experience, also the boon for if you want something you gotta follow the rules, this is a matter of fixing one of the issues in PvP, this one and a few other fixes would for an instance make group CCs and more viable to encounter zergs or just one person in general.

I see it as a part of the AOE issue on the forum and one of the alternatives to just not removing the caps as well.

Among a few other things it would actually put people on a more fair play ground as well, and maybe move it a bit away from just pressing 2 button strategies.