Do dungeons have any appeal at all?

infraction2008b16_ESO

Prime time EU and I've been trying for three hours to form a group unsuccessfully using both chat and the group tool. People seem to love coming for dolmens or bosses but shy away from instanced group content.

You could say that it might be harder to find dedicated tanks and healers that's true, but to me there doesn't seem enough incentive for people to go through these dungeons and maybe have a few more wipes than they would at a dolmen for a skill point and a crappy blue item.

I mean craglorn was the same story, nobody would go near the group quests or instanced dungeons and preferred just to grind anomalies or join boss trains.

What this game needs above all else is an incentive to actually do more co-ordinated group stuff. I don't feel it gives it at any level whether you're level 3 or VR12.

Laura

they don't have loot worth a dung in them. so you complete it once and there is no need to go back literally.

Happy side effect of having crafting gear so superior and easy to do.


Unless they can pump out a new dungeon every week they will have to make them worth repeating.

Vendersleigh

I think the balance is about right. I do every dungeon once, for the skill point.
However, I rarely enjoy the experience except when I go with friends. Pugs just are stressful in prospect even when they turn out ok in actuality.

And yes I am glad it is this way, with crafted gear superior.

I also dislike the visual aspects of dungeons, preferring to be out in the open world with greenery... easier on the eyes. I am trying to level as much as possible before they make delves larger so I do not have to spend much time in them to get the skyshard and achievement.

Audigy

The issue is, if you make dungeons to big (based on rewards) - then you will sooner or later have a dungeon dweller MMO like WOW where everyone only does dungeons and nothing else.

Right now I think the balance is about right, you do a dungeon to see the story and not to farm loot.

I like that, it makes people go out and enjoy the wonderful world that the Designers have created for us.

mar1ano1987nrb18_ESO

I didnt have problems finding group for low level dungeons 1-50 in the NA server ...and I loved that kind of dungeons, nice scenarys (in general) storie, bosses ...loot was kind of meh, but no big deal. Now ..its true that you dont really have a good incentive to try them again after you finish them.

As for veteran dungeons? samething as low levels except that they are more harder ..you need a coordinated group and that is a hard thing to find in the group tool (except if you are lucky )

My advice for veteran content is this : Find a good PvE guild with active people with the same objetives that you are aiming for.

Shunravi

Dungeons don't have good drops, so (almost) no one does them.

With them championing the crafting system like they do, you would think they would have given crafting incentives to do them. You know what I think would have been a far better system than the world drop sets? Having one time use trait and motif stones that would create the world sets. these would be semi rare to extremely rare. The extremely rare ones would drop in dungeons, or even world bosses. The others would drop somewhat like noncrafted sets do now.

That would have made for a far more crafting centric system than the current 'I've got to get my crafting leveled so I can upgrade the far superior dropped world sets.' Just a thought I suppose.

EDIT for clarity.

traigusb14_ESO2

The finder is kinda awful.

There is no really good way to put together a group outside of a guild.

People do run some dungeons a lot for Undaunted pts. (VR wayrest is popular).

Some others are nearly impossible to get people to go to

Nestor

I play mostly solo, simply because my time to play is sporadic and variable. I can't count on myself to be online at any certain time, so I don't want anyone to count on me when I show up 2 hours after I thought I would.

It seems to me that people are grouping for the Dungeons that require it, it's just hard to join any group or PUG. I stand outside a dungeon whispering to who ever else is standing around trying to get a group going. It takes some time to wait for this.

Laura

Audigy wrote: »

The issue is, if you make dungeons to big (based on rewards) - then you will sooner or later have a dungeon dweller MMO like WOW where everyone only does dungeons and nothing else.

Right now I think the balance is about right, you do a dungeon to see the story and not to farm loot.

I like that, it makes people go out and enjoy the wonderful world that the Designers have created for us.

maybe if it worked like that but more often than not people are quitting. I think they have seen all the "wonderful world" has to offer.

Fact of the matter is people will only keep there sub up if they have something to do, and as it stands people that I know personally are quitting and say they will return when "there is more content/more to do" there are plenty of ways they could make dungeons more rewarding without taking people completely out of the world. Its a problem when you can get to max level and be best in slot in about five minutes. People need something to work towards so they aren't done so quickly its actually pretty simple.


The argument is moot though, they know its a problem and are working on ways to make them more repeatable.

Lead Content Designer Rich Lambert – Veteran City of Ash dungeon, region three of Craglorn, dungeon replayability, and grouping improvements
Lead PvP Designer Brian Wheeler – the Imperial City
Lead Client Programmer Jesse McIntyre – facial animations
Creative Director Paul Sage – the Champion System and the Justice System
Lead Gameplay Designer Nick Konkle – Spellcrafting
Art Director Jared Carr – combat responsiveness and new PvE content

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2014/07/11/the-future-of-eso-panel


I will be interested to see what they have in store

someuser

I love the instanced dungeons as they are the only place, pre-50, where there is ANY chance that I might die. I also enjoy the fact that they actually require team work...

Also, the argument that there isn't any incentives to run the instanced dungeons is untrue to a degree. Instanced dungeons are a great place to stock up on soul gems, health/stamina/magika potions, and are GREAT for de-constructible loot for lower level alts to grind with.

I would agree though there should be more incentives... Like in SWTOR you got points and gear pieces when running 4-man content that made running them once daily something that a lot of players did...

Also, the group finder SUCKS. I don't even use it anymore. In the HOURS I tried using it over the course of a week, I made it to ONE successful group and ONE group that had no healer and kept wiping. Paying attention to zone chat and spamming for groups will net me a group within 15 - 30 mins that has always been successful... But not all players like to spam /zone chat or form groups by themselves...

So, the grouping tool needs some major love and there does need to be more incentives... But having said that, I run instanced dungeons (1-2 atleast) almost everytime I play.

*EDITED for Grammar*

Vahrokh

I have been an hard core raider in other MMOs, so I'd love to see more high level PvE in ESO.

However, like many contemporary, aging MMO players, I have now an age and real life responsibilities that don't allow me to really dedicate constant and reliable online time to these things.

So all I can do these days is to be a poor random Joe... and am happy I don't need to grind hard core to be competitive, because I could not and this would eventually lead me to quit.

I can find 4 hours a day to play... 20 minutes at a time, so I can do "interruptible" activities like gathering materials to craft gear. I could never have 4 consecutive hours any more, to do a serious raid instance.

Now take this personal situation to the statistics and you see what it matters.

Audigy

Laura wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

The issue is, if you make dungeons to big (based on rewards) - then you will sooner or later have a dungeon dweller MMO like WOW where everyone only does dungeons and nothing else.

Right now I think the balance is about right, you do a dungeon to see the story and not to farm loot.

I like that, it makes people go out and enjoy the wonderful world that the Designers have created for us.

maybe if it worked like that but more often than not people are quitting. I think they have seen all the "wonderful world" has to offer.

Fact of the matter is people will only keep there sub up if they have something to do, and as it stands people that I know personally are quitting and say they will return when "there is more content" there are plenty of ways they could make dungeons more rewarding without taking people completely out of the world.


The argument is moot though, they know its a problem and are working on ways to make them more repeatable.

Lead Content Designer Rich Lambert – Veteran City of Ash dungeon, region three of Craglorn, dungeon replayability, and grouping improvements
Lead PvP Designer Brian Wheeler – the Imperial City
Lead Client Programmer Jesse McIntyre – facial animations
Creative Director Paul Sage – the Champion System and the Justice System
Lead Gameplay Designer Nick Konkle – Spellcrafting
Art Director Jared Carr – combat responsiveness and new PvE content

Dungeons only work for one type of player however, if we look at WOW they went from 13 Million to 6,8 or something after they focused only on dungeon content.

A good mix is key I think, I don't mind going into a dungeon once a week, but to be forced to grind it every day to farm points for gear is just what drove me away from WOW. It becomes repetitive quite fast and sooner or later all you do in the game is running the same instance

Hopefully ZO finds a way to keep dungeons optional, while giving those that want them their content.

Laura

Vahrokh wrote: »

I have been an hard core raider in other MMOs, so I'd love to see more high level PvE in ESO.

However, like many contemporary, aging MMO players, I have now an age and real life responsibilities that don't allow me to really dedicate constant and reliable online time to these things.

So all I can do these days is to be a poor random Joe... and am happy I don't need to grind hard core to be competitive, because I could not and this would eventually lead me to quit.

I can find 4 hours a day to play... 20 minutes at a time, so I can do "interruptible" activities like gathering materials to craft gear. I could never have 4 consecutive hours any more, to do a serious raid instance.

Now take this personal situation to the statistics and you see what it matters.

with all due respect I'm sure that they could accommodate your play style with others. I am a casual gamer myself with a full time job and two kids, and I have found myself bored and done with the game outside of achievement grinds. Its an issue.

I have found myself creating AA pug runs to train new people on the fights for fun, and that is getting old to me.

traigusb14_ESO2

IIRC dungeon replayability is their plan to scale dungeon to level of group leader.

The may have added more ideas to it, but that was the last thing I have seen on it. IMO not probably enough.

Ethona

I stopped trying to find dungeon groups due to never finding any. I'd put my self in que as dps & healer and wait ... and wait ... and wait ... hour later a dps would join the team ... and we wait ... and we wait ... 2 hours into it the dps would leave and that's the end.

So I found a friend, and he's a tank!!!! We join the dungeon que-thing and wait ... and wait ... and wait ... 30 mins or so into the waiting a dps will join ... and thus we wait for another half hour till everyone get's beyond tired of screwing with the worse dungeon tool coded on the face of this screwed up planet!

The dungeon tool in this game is by far the worse grouping tool I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY ENTIRE 32.5 YEARS OF LIVING ON THIS PLANET!

That is why I, and probably everyone else, no longer uses/ques up for dungeons. I don't care if the dungeon is useless ... It's content I'd love to do, content I want to see and exp at least once!

Reivax

I'd repeat a dungeon if every time I killed the boss there was a chance he dropped a special temper that let me upgrade a weapon/armor piece to next level, no risk, 100% success. Yeah... I'd kill for that!

Alphashado

Problem is there is little to no incentive to repeat a dungeon once you complete it. The first time through is great because you get a ton of xp from the quest turn in, plus a skill point. After that the xp is minimal and the loot isn't really worth the trouble.

Mikeriddle1b16_ESO

The core of the game is solo-play, so most people just go for each dungeon once for the skill point. Coupled with a dungeon finding tool that frequently groups 4 DPS together and therefore leaves people with the option of role-swapping or dropping the group. The dynamic would probably change and there would likely be a vibrant portion of the community into grouping if that was a viable means of levelling throughout the game; e.g. by huge public dungeons designed around 4 players or with significant group orientated overland content.

drkeys143

Perhaps the number of threads about "morons" and "brain dead players" have something to do with some peoples reluctance to group

Wizzo91

Most players run dungeons with friends / guilds only. And mostly for fun (or VR points / xp) because the loots are not worth it.

The VR dungeons can be a challenge sometimes (ever tried CoH). This makes them for engaging(to me at least).

I've tried using the grouping tool if no friends / guildies are on. Always regret it because there is always at least incompetent player that can't fulfil his role.

So yea, join a guild and you will have the chance for runs a lot more

drogon1

LOL at the folks complaining about the dungeon tool. The dungeon tool cannot "find" players that don't want to be found - and that is the majority of players in ESO atm (at least in the leveling zones). There are a bunch of reasons I can think of why:

1. The game seems to have an overabundance of Skyrim types who play ESO like a single player RPG. They just don't group and do group content much. Probably it's a bad experience for them, because dungeons are the most challenging PVE they will face, and many of these types of players don't know the boss mechanics or even how to play their role in a group.

2. For the longest period of time, dungeon XP was essentially nil. You'd bring your tank into a dungeon to help a group out and literally got nothing out of it. XP was that bad. (I say "was" because I recalculated dungeon XP after the patch and there seems to have been around a ten-fold increase in XP.)

3. Because of the lack of dungeon playing in game, there is a large shortage of dedicated tanks and healers, making it much more difficult to not only find a PUG, but PUG once found, all the more hard for it to succeed.

It's just bizarre to see people talk about the game's "proper" balance that sees them "only" have to enter a dungeon once a week. Seriously...wtf myopia? Many players - like myself - prefer playing dungeons because they are not faceroll - like the non-dungeon content tends to be. But I understand that many people prefer solo questing, and that's just fine. A large, premium MMO like ESO should have room for all these different styles of playing it. All of them should be made equally viable to attract the largest possible playerbase. So much for "proper" balance.

aleister

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Prime time EU and I've been trying for three hours to form a group unsuccessfully using both chat and the group tool. People seem to love coming for dolmens or bosses but shy away from instanced group content.

You could say that it might be harder to find dedicated tanks and healers that's true, but to me there doesn't seem enough incentive for people to go through these dungeons and maybe have a few more wipes than they would at a dolmen for a skill point and a crappy blue item.

I mean craglorn was the same story, nobody would go near the group quests or instanced dungeons and preferred just to grind anomalies or join boss trains.

What this game needs above all else is an incentive to actually do more co-ordinated group stuff. I don't feel it gives it at any level whether you're level 3 or VR12.

Veteran dungeons:
1. Hard as hell
2. Crap loot
3. Crap XP
4. Take forever

So, no. No appeal other than the achievement.

someuser

Mikeriddle1b16_ESO wrote: »

The core of the game is solo-play, so most people just go for each dungeon once for the skill point. Coupled with a dungeon finding tool that frequently groups 4 DPS together and therefore leaves people with the option of role-swapping or dropping the group. The dynamic would probably change and there would likely be a vibrant portion of the community into grouping if that was a viable means of levelling throughout the game; e.g. by huge public dungeons designed around 4 players or with significant group orientated overland content.

I agree, the game has a strong "solo" component to it... which I do like. However, as I said in my previous post here, there is more to pre-50 instanced dungeons than just skill points and exp.

By time I move to the next map, I have ran the instanced dungeons so many times that I am maxed out on all soul gems of my level (which sell for a nice little chunk of change), health/stamina/magika potions, and I have TONS of gear to deconstruct making leveling my crafting alts simple (though swapping daggers with other players is still the most efficient).

Adding to my last post, it also prepares you for the mechanics of the dungeons in VET mode and helps players understand how to play their characters well with others... You have no idea how many players I run into all the time who are just abysmal... Not because they lack the ability, but because all they do is solo the cake walk that is pre-50... I mean, I still see players crying about not being able to beat simple pre-50 boss fights because all they had to do in the past was mash one or two offensive skills and never bothered to learn the equally important defensive skills that keep you alive.

And while I also brought up my issues with the group tool here, I will add that any decent character design allows for either off-healing, off-tanking, or off-DPSing. Purist toons are fine in FPS RPGs like Skyrim, but ESO is NOT Skyrim. So, while it is excusable to not have a hybrid in the first two maps and associated instanced group dungeons, by the third zone even 4-man DPS should be able to complete pre-50 dungeons... BUT, the group tool takes too long. I recommend looking at zone chat for invites to the 4-man content OR (gasp) starting your own group and spam for tanks/healers/dps'ers. Longest I had to wait to do ANY content on the EP alliance is 15 - 30 mins... Many times its much quicker than that.

Anastasia

Ethona wrote: »

I stopped trying to find dungeon groups due to never finding any. I'd put my self in que as dps & healer and wait ... and wait ... and wait ... hour later a dps would join the team ... and we wait ... and we wait ... 2 hours into it the dps would leave and that's the end.

So I found a friend, and he's a tank!!!! We join the dungeon que-thing and wait ... and wait ... and wait ... 30 mins or so into the waiting a dps will join ... and thus we wait for another half hour till everyone get's beyond tired of screwing with the worse dungeon tool coded on the face of this screwed up planet!

The dungeon tool in this game is by far the worse grouping tool I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY ENTIRE 32.5 YEARS OF LIVING ON THIS PLANET!

That is why I, and probably everyone else, no longer uses/ques up for dungeons. I don't care if the dungeon is useless ... It's content I'd love to do, content I want to see and exp at least once!

---

Honestly laughed so hard I cried Ethona, or was I crying first...look at the dungeons longingly but just can't convince even many friends to do it more than once. May talk them into twice if some are in the mood to help teach other new players. Just so sad. Sincerely hope, but am not holding my breath, that ZOS has something fresh up their sleeve about this. o-0

(*) And here I sincerely believed the TESO promo's, the interviews, alllll that pre-launch stuff about the comfortable soloability for PvE lower levels up to 50 and how the Vet content and endgame would be juicy, back up your brother challenging, fun PvE GROUPING. (*)

pinstripesc

I prefer the dungeons to most other content, mostly because that's what I've enjoyed most in other games, coordinating with guildies, figuring out strategies, etc. The benefit for me is getting my Undaunted skill up, and some of the purple sets are ok - not great, but ok.

reggielee

spent the last two weeks spamming chat for dungeons, which i have overleveled so cant use the group finder. before I start spamming, I switch around my spells to dungeon ones, make sure i have pots and gems and clear my bags cuz ya know if you get a bite then no one wants to wait for you to take care of all that.


so I spam, and wait. and wait. and wait. cant go adventuring or questing cuz ya know if you get a bite then your bags are full and you have to off load and blah blah blah. so its wait.. and wait. oh great! a bite! so then you both wait for a tank, (im a healer) and or dps. you get a bite! great. gotta wait for them to offload inv, get pots/gems, whatever. 15min later... one of your group has to leave. then its back to spamming.

and wait.

hour later no group. wasted game time. annoyance at the game. log off. OR
you get a group, they are nice, but underleveled and not a clue on how to do the dungeon. you stay and teach, have some fun, die alot, they appreciate it, but you still dont get the achiev done cuz they arent high enuf yet to do much dps.

you get a group, one or more is an arsehat, blames everyone and everything for failure, gets everyone upset. logs in the middle of the dungeon. no achiev.

you get a group, they are awesome. you have great fun, get the achiiv and point, exchange guilds, friends requests, do as many dungeons you can that day. never see them again in game.

you get the group but its their speed run, you dont get to read quests, get the chests, do anything but race after the tank who is attacking the next herd of mobs before the rest of the group even is there. get the achive and point but it was not fun at all and ruined the dungeon as now you cant get the quests again to read to find out what the heck it was even about.

screw group dungeons all together.

infraction2008b16_ESO

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

The finder is kinda awful.

There is no really good way to put together a group outside of a guild.

Course there is SWTOR, Rift, WoW all give a daily/weekly reward for using the group finder tools. It encourages people to be more social and group up for content.

That's part of the incentive that is lacking in this game, where all you get is a one time quest.

Natjur

At the moment there is no 'need' or reward for doing a dungeon again until they add 'daily' rewards, but I am not sure if that is a good thing.

aleister wrote: »

Veteran dungeons:
1. Hard as hell
2. Crap loot
3. Crap XP
4. Take forever

5. Bugs that make them un-finish-able and therefore waste more of your time

I only did the veteran dungeons for the achievement as there is no other reward besides the achievement.

But what could they ADD to Veteran dungeons to make you want to go back?

phaneub17_ESO

So the Veteran Dungeons don't have a skill point like the normal one? I have yet to jump into a Vet Dungeon as nobody wants a DPS Templar, and I always get passed up for a Sorc Healer over a Templar every single time. Not that I really need anymore skill points, I just like collecting for the giggles of having more skills maxed to Rank 4.

Audigy

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

traigusb14_ESO2 wrote: »

The finder is kinda awful.

There is no really good way to put together a group outside of a guild.

Course there is SWTOR, Rift, WoW all give a daily/weekly reward for using the group finder tools. It encourages people to be more social and group up for content.

That's part of the incentive that is lacking in this game, where all you get is a one time quest.

Been a while that I played Rift, but based on SWTOR and WOW their system is rubbish.
People only farm the same 2-3 dungeons every day, not something I can call fun They do have an incentive yes, but is this actually why people pay 13 bucks?

Would a mouse in a cage pay 13 of its hoarded nuts because it wants to run in its wheel? I am pretty sure it would prefer leaving the cage, dodge some cats and maybe find a companion.


In my opinion if they want to add something as an incentive, then it should be an event which occurs every week and that event involves questing, adventuring, a dungeon and some pvp. You will get tasks and then you do these during the week.

At the end you get a nice reward and every week something new will come up. This is how you motivate people to play

Lucryster

Asherons Call used to do monthly events that got everyone to participate.