Is it just me that feels I'm Beta Testing Console Release and Paying to do so?

TehMagnus

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I'm basing my statements on zone population as well as the general leveling speed of the average player. It takes a while to hit VR12. Most players aren't there yet, simply by virtue of the fact that most players haven't put in that much playtime on one character.

I'm VR12 and still haven't cleared all the Craglorn dungeons. There are plenty of achievements for dolmens, public dungeons, VR dungeons, trials, repeatable Craglorn quests, etc. Trials are not the only endgame content. Not by a long shot.

You don't know that about the player base. I think most people rushed VR12 basing my statement on the fact that craglorn is the most populated zone in game and most other zones are empty and the lower zones are prolly filled with alts.

As for Craglorn, I cleared all the dungeons at VR12 in less than 3H with 2 other VR12 and 1 VR7, didn't really break a sweat except on the 3 lamias.

Achievements are not end game content since you can get them when ever you want in game and they are uterly useless except for braging rights and soon dyes.

Craglorn Daily quests are useless because the reward is useless and you don't need experience.

Public dungeons: Useless at VR12 since you don't need experience and loot is crap.

VR dungeons: No experience needed so waste of time. You could do them to drop rare loot but most people don't want those sets.

So yeah, once again, the only real End Game content that is worth doing for everybody is trials .

Joy_Division

It's you.

TehMagnus

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's you.

Obviously not

nerevarine1138

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I'm basing my statements on zone population as well as the general leveling speed of the average player. It takes a while to hit VR12. Most players aren't there yet, simply by virtue of the fact that most players haven't put in that much playtime on one character.

I'm VR12 and still haven't cleared all the Craglorn dungeons. There are plenty of achievements for dolmens, public dungeons, VR dungeons, trials, repeatable Craglorn quests, etc. Trials are not the only endgame content. Not by a long shot.

You don't know that about the player base. I think most people rushed VR12 basing my statement on the fact that craglorn is the most populated zone in game and most other zones are empty and the lower zones are prolly filled with alts.

As for Craglorn, I cleared all the dungeons at VR12 in less than 3H with 2 other VR12 and 1 VR7, didn't really break a sweat except on the 3 lamias.

Achievements are not end game content since you can get them when ever you want in game and they are uterly useless except for braging rights and soon dyes.

Craglorn Daily quests are useless because the reward is useless and you don't need experience.

Public dungeons: Useless at VR12 since you don't need experience and loot is crap.

VR dungeons: No experience needed so waste of time. You could do them to drop rare loot but most people don't want those sets.

So yeah, once again, the only real End Game content that is worth doing for everybody is trials .

Most people didn't rush VR12, and if you think Craglorn is the most populated zone, you clearly haven't been leveling lately. Also, most of the characters I level my alts alongside are new to that content.

And if your criteria for good endgame content is "I get experience or a guaranteed awesome reward," then you'll be sorely upset. If, on the other hand, you enjoy playing the game, with the chance at getting some good loot (or maybe not, who really cares?), then there's plenty to do. But again, that's a matter of personal preference. It sounds like WoW is more your pace (rush to endgame with an endless gear-grind to follow). Have you tried it?

TehMagnus

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Most people didn't rush VR12, and if you think Craglorn is the most populated zone, you clearly haven't been leveling lately. Also, most of the characters I level my alts alongside are new to that content.

And if your criteria for good endgame content is "I get experience or a guaranteed awesome reward," then you'll be sorely upset. If, on the other hand, you enjoy playing the game, with the chance at getting some good loot (or maybe not, who really cares?), then there's plenty to do. But again, that's a matter of personal preference. It sounds like WoW is more your pace (rush to endgame with an endless gear-grind to follow). Have you tried it?

My criteria for good endgame content like any competitive gamer is having hard rewarding stuff to do and getting better at how I play in order to achieve those rewards, it's to have a good final set for PVP, a good set for PVE and go have fun in any of those when I wish to while I wait for the next new area or next new conent.

And no, sorry for you, I won't be sorely upset, ZOS will implement at least 2 more areas after Craglorn, more end game content, more things to do like justice system and Arenas so I'll get my End Game content and the game will rock.

As you said, it's a matter of personal preference. You might enjoy wasting time doing useless quests for no reward, I enjoy challenges and working towards getting better at beating them. Game must have content for both and it currently lacks content for the latter. <= Because it was released too soon and we are beta or (Gama or Delta if you prefer) testing it before it's released to console.

As @Evergnar said, the console release delay confirms it.

nerevarine1138

magnusnet wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Most people didn't rush VR12, and if you think Craglorn is the most populated zone, you clearly haven't been leveling lately. Also, most of the characters I level my alts alongside are new to that content.

And if your criteria for good endgame content is "I get experience or a guaranteed awesome reward," then you'll be sorely upset. If, on the other hand, you enjoy playing the game, with the chance at getting some good loot (or maybe not, who really cares?), then there's plenty to do. But again, that's a matter of personal preference. It sounds like WoW is more your pace (rush to endgame with an endless gear-grind to follow). Have you tried it?

My criteria for good endgame content like any competitive gamer is having hard rewarding stuff to do and getting better at how I play in order to achieve those rewards, it's to have a good final set for PVP, a good set for PVE and go have fun in any of those when I wish to while I wait for the next new area or next new conent.

And no, sorry for you, I won't be sorely upset, ZOS will implement at least 2 more areas after Craglorn, more end game content, more things to do like justice system and Arenas so I'll get my End Game content and the game will rock.

As you said, it's a matter of personal preference. You might enjoy wasting time doing useless quests for no reward, I enjoy challenges and working towards getting better at beating them. Game must have content for both and it currently lacks content for the latter. <= Because it was released too soon and we are beta or (Gama or Delta if you prefer) testing it before it's released to console.

As @Evergnar said, the console release delay confirms it.

So to invoke the big kid on the block: WoW was unfinished at release?

Because endgame in vanilla WoW had less to do that ESO currently does.

Oh, and the console release delay confirms that they weren't ready to release the console version yet. Which probably has far more to do with coding issues than the game not being "finished" yet.

Redlag

kitsinni wrote: »

Think about it this way STOP if you don't like it.

Falmer wrote: »

Yep, just you complaining really. No one forced you to play now. Why didn't you wait until the console release to start playing? Most games, and certainly every MMO has a breaking in period. You could have easily waited until this timeframe was over before playing if you can't handle the bumps.

Its not okay to advertise an mmo as complete. Then spend months finishing after they sell it to us. We're talking about lighting patches when heavy, med, and light armor aren't even balanced. Stamina and magicka aren't balanced. Classes aren't balanced.

Saying I could have easily waited until some timeframe was over. A timeframe no developer in his right mind admit to. Screw that. If they say it's finished it should be finished.

nerevarine1138

Redlag wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Think about it this way STOP if you don't like it.

Falmer wrote: »

Yep, just you complaining really. No one forced you to play now. Why didn't you wait until the console release to start playing? Most games, and certainly every MMO has a breaking in period. You could have easily waited until this timeframe was over before playing if you can't handle the bumps.

Its not okay to advertise an mmo as complete. Then spend months finishing after they sell it to us. We're talking about lighting patches when heavy, med, and light armor aren't even balanced. Stamina and magicka aren't balanced. Classes aren't balanced.

Saying I could have easily waited until some timeframe was over. A timeframe no developer in his right mind admit to. Screw that. If they say it's finished it should be finished.

Name one MMO where people aren't still complaining about balance. That has nothing to do with it being a finished product.

Redlag

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Name one MMO where people aren't still complaining about balance. That has nothing to do with it being a finished product.

You're exaggerating "it's all opinions" to defend the beta version of a game released as finished.

The amount of changes to DKs alone in the first 3 months shows they haven't even began to flush out the class. Meaning they're working on covering the grid still.. i.e. lighting

nerevarine1138

Redlag wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Name one MMO where people aren't still complaining about balance. That has nothing to do with it being a finished product.

You're exaggerating "it's all opinions" to defend the beta version of a game released as finished.

The amount of changes to DKs alone in the first 3 months shows they haven't even began to flush out the class. Meaning they're working on covering the grid still.. i.e. lighting

Compare any class in WoW today to the vanilla version of the class. Or compare the classes 6 months after they launched to the launch day builds. Balance is an ongoing project in any MMO.

Vunter

It's just you.

TehMagnus

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Redlag wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Name one MMO where people aren't still complaining about balance. That has nothing to do with it being a finished product.

You're exaggerating "it's all opinions" to defend the beta version of a game released as finished.

The amount of changes to DKs alone in the first 3 months shows they haven't even began to flush out the class. Meaning they're working on covering the grid still.. i.e. lighting

Compare any class in WoW today to the vanilla version of the class. Or compare the classes 6 months after they launched to the launch day builds. Balance is an ongoing project in any MMO.

Compare original Lineage II classes to currently existing classes? yeah yeah, games change, except Lineage II major updates didn't come out every 2 months. You had time to enjoy your hardly obtained stuff and to prepare for next patch. MMOs change they evolve, thank God (or who ever) they do.

But having so many major game changing updates so early in the game just prooves it wasn't finished nor beta tested enough.

And yes, I was here in beta too, game has nothing do to with it and it's miles away from what was in beta.

Still, it's quality is far from being acceptable and that's the main reason they are not puting it out for consoles, because it would be a fiasco.

Redlag

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Compare any class in WoW today to the vanilla version of the class. Or compare the classes 6 months after they launched to the launch day builds. Balance is an ongoing project in any MMO.

I don't need to play along with you. I do not care what WoW had. This game is unfinished. Go open a crate in VR1 Auridon. It has level 1-15 cooking ingredients 3 months into release.

I don't care what YOU ACCEPT.. Can you comprehend that? Im a consumer. I don't care what you think. My beef is between myself and the people I bought a product from. I don't care how lax you are or what you find acceptable until you're buying me games as gifts.

I've been playing mmos since 1997 in UO. New games, beta games. I understand the process completely. Watching a company release a game I'm beta testing and people in beta are telling the companies they have too many problems. It's getting old after almost 20 years of people like you making it okay for them to swindle the player base; defined by what another company got away with.

By the way light, med, heavy and staves vs melee weapons is not an opinion of balance. Its the fundamentals. It needs a complete overhaul because its causing a magicka stamina problems at the root of the game. From day one. They will have to make drastic beta changes to make it work properly. WoW was nothing like this at release. That's why WoW kept it's playerbase after the first month and ESO did not. Argue with me all day long. The people have spoken. Next up console. After that.... F2P. Another cash grab before F2P.

GaldorP

When I heard how there was a complete re-design of the provisioning system more than 3 months after the game's release while so many issues that are more important to the PC player-base are being ignored, yes, that made me feel a bit like I'm paying to beta-test a console game, like I'm being used as a test market to see what will work best on the market where it really matters.

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, I have no problem with the subscription fee based model, I think the GMs are doing a great job (on the EU server where I play) and I think many reviewers have treated the game unfairly. I also like the announced change of the provisioning system. It will be easier to tell which food improves which stat, and less ingredients will make it easier to see which ingredients to use (and keep) and less inventory space will be needed. Also, drinks will finally be useful with the new system! However - as much as I appreciate that change - it's not at all what the PC player-base was asking for. And it makes me feel like the change was primarily added to make the game more appealing to people who will start playing it in the future (aka those who will play it on the console) while the concerns of the PC player-base are being ignored. Just 2 examples of things that have been broken since launch and there have been countless reports, suggestion threads and pleads for a fix: Werewolf and Starter Island fishing achievements (+ rare fish not appearing in the inventory). People have also asked many times for an integration of fishing in the provisioning system (so fish could be used as ingredients for food). And now that seems even less likely to happen after there was no mention of it in the provisioning revamp.

DanteVFenris

Nope not in beta, it just keeps being improved upon like every other mmo and sub game. In a year from console release it'll feel like a year before was in beta. That's because we pay sub so game is always in development.

Kalman

It's just you

TehMagnus

m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »

When I heard how there was a complete re-design of the provisioning system more than 3 months after the game's release while so many issues that are more important to the PC player-base are being ignored, yes, that made me feel a bit like I'm paying to beta-test a console game, like I'm being used as a test market to see what will work best on the market where it really matters.

Rockstar has stated this, many companies have stated this, the money nowadays is in consoles. That's why there still isn't a GTA V release for PC because it's not a priority.

Madval

Yes it's just you sorry.

Eatitapple

magnusnet wrote: »

Rockstar has stated this, many companies have stated this, the money nowadays is in consoles. That's why there still isn't a GTA V release for PC because it's not a priority.

Actually they are improving the game for the pc port probable because of the bad pc port for GTA IV. They are improving the graphics, adding denser npc/traffic, adding new animals, better weather stuff like that.

Anyways at least they'll get more money from the console ports to add my content to the game at least I'm hoping.

Arsenic_Touch

Sometimes it feels like a finished product and most of the time it feels like we're beta testing for consoles. US players are beta testing for European players so it all evens out.... x.x

You look at fishing and werewolves and stamina/weapon builds and the differences between armors, how the guild system was a complete joke and you wonder "how did this make it through testing" and then you remember that testing didn't matter.

Redlag

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

So to invoke the big kid on the block: WoW was unfinished at release?

Because endgame in vanilla WoW had less to do that ESO currently does.

Oh, and the console release delay confirms that they weren't ready to release the console version yet. Which probably has far more to do with coding issues than the game not being "finished" yet.

You don't know what you're talking about.

WoW had, Scholomance, Stratholme, Blackrock Depths, Blackrock Depths: Upper City, Lower Blackrock spire, and Upper Black Rock spire. All real dungeons, with real content. That took over an hour to do at release and you could bring as many people as you wanted. They put a cap on it later.

I can't stand WoW either. I played it. Im not defending it. To compare these two games is ridiculous.

AngryWolf

I don't feel that all.

Loco_Mofo

It definitely doesn't feel like the game is out of beta yet to me.

They just completely nerfed VR just last week, class/build balance is still pathetic, grouping is frustrating, PvP is still having FPS & lag issues, still no EU server, still have bugged quests and that's just the major stuff.

It's fine that some people find this acceptable, but it's also okay that some people don't especially 3 months after launch.

Mordria

magnusnet wrote: »

Snip

MMOs are never "finished" they are always doing updates, adding content, and tweaking classes.

Name one MMO that went live and had no updates, tweaks, or added content then you win the golden cookie

SFBryan18

Feel however you want. The reality is, the word "beta" has a specific definition, and the beta test is over. So your feelings are nothing more than a comparison between the current game you play, and what you might experience in a beta test.

So the game is obviously not a beta. Are PC players testing for console? How could they not be? Fact is, the game came out first on PC, so any improvements made would carry over to later releases. Same thing is happening with Grand Theft Auto 5. All the bugs are being worked out on last gen consoles, so when they come out on next gen they will be practically flawless. THIS INCLUDES THE PC VERSION. Do you think PS3/360 players are whining that they are beta testers for PC? Maybe.

This could be looked at from two perspectives:

A. I got a game that was not finished, whah!
B. Instead of having to wait longer, I got access to a new game before everyone else and am happy even though it needs improvements.

If you feel the answer is A, then don't play it until it gets better. It's that simple.

TehMagnus

Mordria wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

Snip

MMOs are never "finished" they are always doing updates, adding content, and tweaking classes.

Name one MMO that went live and had no updates, tweaks, or added content then you win the golden cookie

Name one successfull MMO that went live and was so buged unbalanced and incomplete that they had to push Major content updates for the 8 months following release to complete their work. Then, you keep the golden cookie.

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Feel however you want. The reality is, the word "beta" has a specific definition, and the beta test is over. So your feelings are nothing more than a comparison between the current game you play, and what you might experience in a beta test.

So the game is obviously not a beta. Are PC players testing for console? How could they not be? Fact is, the game came out first on PC, so any improvements made would carry over to later releases. Same thing is happening with Grand Theft Auto 5. All the bugs are being worked out on last gen consoles, so when they come out on next gen they will be practically flawless. THIS INCLUDES THE PC VERSION. Do you think PS3/360 players are whining that they are beta testers for PC? Maybe.

This could be looked at from two perspectives:

A. I got a game that was not finished, whah!
B. Instead of having to wait longer, I got access to a new game before everyone else and am happy even though it needs improvements.

If you feel the answer is A, then don't play it until it gets better. It's that simple.

"Beta testing can be considered "pre-release testing." Beta test versions of software are now distributed to a wide audience on the Web partly to give the program a "real-world" test and partly to provide a preview of the next release. "
Here you got the "specific definition" of beta test. We are a large audience giving the program a real-word test during the consoles pre-release.7

So yeah, the reality is, we are in beta test. You even have a built in function to spot & report bugs so that the dev team becomes aware of it. Your feeling that this is not a beta test are probably a comparison to other failed games you've played before.

And no, you're liying about GTA V. Rockstar games has been releasing PC versions of his last GTA games around 1 year after the console release and they have admited on doing so not because of "testing" but merely because the PC games don't bring as much money in as console games due to the fact everybody gets cracked versions nowadays.

If you think the logic behind getting GTA V out on consoles first was to make GTA V PC better and not just a money issue, you're exactly the kind of golable custommer that makes these companies think they can do anything without people getting mad or coming after them.

Archie

OP, you are absolutely right! And do not believe the endless efforts of coercion to make you believe this is a normal gaming experience.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

You may just be getting to end game content, many people have been there for more than a month and are left with nothing to do because the game wasn't finished. Just because you don't play competitively, it doesn't mean competitive players shouldn't be encouraged, it's actually those players that develop strategies that allow you to finish difficult content when you get to higher level, it's those players who make PVP alive and fun.

They aren't left with nothing to do because the game wasn't finished - MMOs are never "finished" until they shut down. They're there because they rush through the early game too quickly.

Competitive players are not needed to develop strategies to beat content; anyone can do that. It's not hard, and high end PVE is not "competitive" anyhow, no matter how much some people try to claim it is. PVP being fun has nothing to do with "competitive players"; all players are by definition competitive in PVP.. of which there is plenty to do.

Wrong, 10000% wrong. Current trading system sucks. All you get is people spaming chat because the guild trading fees are so high that noone wants to sell or buy there, sure, if you're low level you prolly don't see this, but after a while guild trading becomes just useless. The update they are implementing in Update 3 (and that was planed since the begining) will make it really good.

Wrong. People are not "spamming"; they're hawking their wares. This is the way it should be. You should not be able to go to Wal-Mart in a fantasy world, and your purchases should not appear by magic in a mailbox.

The current system is awesome mainly BECAUSE it's hard to deal with. It makes people think up ways to deal with it, rather than having everything automated.

Sure your game won't crash, you just have quests impossible to complete because the NPC isn't here or isn't answering, lag & FPS issues, broken game mechanics, unexistent trading system.

Funny, I don't seem to be experiencing these issues... and I doubt it's because my computer is magically better than anyone else's. Especially the nonexistent trading system.. there is one, you just don't like it. That's probably a good thing; if it makes people cry about it being inconvenient, they're probably doing it right.

Wrong again. Game was obviously unfinished since they are pushing out now (3 months later), content that was planed to be included in the game since the begining. Planing new zones, higher level cap, major world & story updates (like LineageII) on a long run is one thing, inserting functionalities you didn't have time to finish is an other.

Nope. The fact that something was planned for release then pushed back does not mean the game was "unfinished". Craglorn wasn't needed at release. There are really too many people in there now. Encouraging content locusts and poopsocking is bad expectation management.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO wrote: »

Refer to previous statement. Major content EVOLUTIONS are not an issue. Incomplete and unbalanced game mechanics are.

Balance is never finished in any MMO. EVE, for example, is over a decade old and is still "finishing" old systems and re-balancing ships. Everquest was balancing classes constantly from 1999 to 2004.

This is normal for MMOs. It's not because the game was "unfinished" it's because you don't understand what is and isn't realistic. Try understanding that it isn't about what you want; it's about what's realistic and feasible.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

They do have everything to do. Did you even read my whole original post? They are waiting for those things to be balanced and fixed in order to put out a "Balanced and complete" version on console. If they had released the same game they released in April to consoles, it would be doing as bad if not worse as the Pc game.

]

How do you know they are waiting to do this, and not just working on the port?

You don't. You're just assuming that's what's happening.

Yup, but ONCE AGAIN, they WILL be fixed for console release, at our expense, when they could have been fixed during BETA, where it's SUPOSED to be fixed.

They aren't being "fixed at our expense"; we're getting to play the game. All this would have meant was that we had to wait for the console release to play the PC version just so that your suspicion that somehow the PC release was to test for the console was alleviated.

Furthermore, they are not "supposed to have been fixed" in Beta. Betas are never "fix all the problems". They're "identify the problems, and assure things are do-able for release". There are always problems and bugs after release. Bug-free games have never been a thing, not even back when games came on 5 or 6 3.5" disks. If they "could have" been fixed in beta, then why wouldn't they have just fixed them?

Actually, when you know what you're doing, no, it aint that hard since most of the titles that come out for PC and Consoles are (once again and except rockstar games lately) released at the same time. As for the decision being made later in the development, it's almost certainly untrue since the game UI is console oriented.

The game UI is not "console oriented"' it's oriented on not having a lot of UI so that people don't "play the UI". Furthermore, releasing an MMO for a console is rather a new thing; it hasn't been done much before, and it needs to fit into these consoles online systems as well.

Heck, this kind of people are the reason companies feel like they can continue this business model, making PC players pay and suffer for the benefit of console players just because: That's where the money is nowadays.

No one is doing this. Furthermore, the total lack of perspective in claiming PC players are "suffering" is astounding. You aren't "suffering." The fact that video games are actually an issue for you is evidence that suffering is almost totally absent from your life.

As for having "no idea or a cursory idea", I work in software development management and testing, so yeah, I have a pretty good idea of what the development policies are.

The fact that you keep insisting that "porting is not hard" despite consoles having different architecture and operating systems, and basing it on weak claims like "but the UI is console-like!" indicate that you are almost certainly lying and just making up claims of "working in software management and testing" to add weight to arguments that are completely ignorant.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO

Redlag wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Name one MMO where people aren't still complaining about balance. That has nothing to do with it being a finished product.

You're exaggerating "it's all opinions" to defend the beta version of a game released as finished.

The amount of changes to DKs alone in the first 3 months shows they haven't even began to flush out the class. Meaning they're working on covering the grid still.. i.e. lighting

EVE went through a major ship rebalancing iteration starting about 2 years ago, and continuing to this day. It was, at the time of the start of this, 9 years old. Obviously, EVE was still in beta after 9 years!