What' your software development experience?

EnochRoot

As a software developer myself, I'm getting tired of "Why don't we have <feature X>??? They spent 5 years making this game!!!" I'm pretty convinced that MOST people on this board have little to NO experience in the software development realm.

Feel free to provide what your experience is, if you have any. Or, if you are one who demands features and have never made software, explain your thought process on how such a demand can and/or should be met.

EinionYrth

I create other software for a living.

These days I write software for embedded systems but I wrote games from 1984 to 2003.

GreySix

I create software as a hobby.

I have one game out there created by me. It's in ancient Sinclair Basic, and you can find it here.

I've also dabbled with creating relatively simple games in C++.

Fairydragon3

No option for me....Student of Design, some testing jobs

steveb16_ESO46

I have no development experience.

I have no experience.

I'm also not a pilot either but that wouldn't stop me from either noticing or making a huge-ass fuss if the engines of the plane were on fire.

So your point is?

Blackwidow

I make games for a living.

"I'm getting tired of "Why don't we have <feature X>??? "

Who here has any experience in being an adult?

EnochRoot

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

I have no experience.

I'm also not a pilot either but that wouldn't stop me from either noticing or making a huge-ass fuss if the engines of the plane were on fire.

So your point is?

So, the pilot should defer his judgement to the passengers when his plane is on fire? I'm sure that will be the best way to handle the situation. Your analogy is irrelevant to this conversation.

I'm not saying things are great or horrible, only that without relevant experience, demanding that there has "been enough time" is an invalid argument.

EnochRoot

Fairydragon3 wrote: »

No option for me....Student of Design, some testing jobs

You either have experience in software creation or you don't. Sounds like you might have some. Building software includes, but is not limited to, programming.

Blackwidow

I make games for a living.

I guess a year and 3 months to fix a bug is not long enough. That is how long some of these bugs have been in the game.

However, it is not the bugs that is the cause of most of the complaints about ESO.

LrdRahvin

EnochRoot wrote: »

As a software developer myself, I'm getting tired of "Why don't we have <feature X>??? They spent 5 years making this game!!!" I'm pretty convinced that MOST people on this board have little to NO experience in the software development realm.

Feel free to provide what your experience is, if you have any. Or, if you are one who demands features and have never made software, explain your thought process on how such a demand can and/or should be met.

As someone who is not a software developer, I'm getting tired of people who "are" (maybe) software developers blindly defending everything from really shoddy coding to lousy testing/QA. I'm pretty convinced that MOST people on this board couldn't find their rear end with both hands.

Feel free to make ridiculous/spurious arguments. Or, if you are one who spouts total and complete drivel explain your thought process, you know- on second thought, don't! (fixed it for you)

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

I create other software for a living.

There is very little 'games' programming that isn't simply general software development methodology with a particular application, and those areas that are reflect specialisations such as video rendering in the client.

If you read published source code, such as the Quake engine, you quickly realise that most of it is generic software design, the video specialisation is what sets it apart from mainstream 'IT'.

I'm sure the server-side is similar, some highly specialised subsystems but mostly generic software solutions tailored to a particular application area: there are even patents for some of those such as the network messaging used to broadcast world state, a highly specialised application of 'networking' in terms of state diagrams.

Animus0724

I make games for a living.

I like to make board games our of construction paper and cardboard cut outs hence why I voted for the first option.

Tabbycat

I have no development experience.

I never demand they do anything. It's not my company. I make suggestions on what I think they should do to improve the game. But honestly, even if you are a software developer, unless you work for ZOS themselves, you don't know anything about the engine they run or what it is capable of doing.

ZOS hears what we'd like to have in the game and they do their best to work it into the game. Sometimes I would like for them to explain why they can't do things. For example, people have been asking about dueling for a while and it was only in a recent interview that they said they wanted to but current game limitations prevent them from doing so. When the Justice Systems comes out they'll have better systems in place to support it.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

EnochRoot

Tabbycat wrote: »

I never demand they do anything. It's not my company. I make suggestions on what I think they should do to improve the game. But honestly, even if you are a software developer, unless you work for ZOS themselves, you don't know anything about the engine they run or what it is capable of doing.

My point exactly.

Gigglesnort

EnochRoot wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

I have no experience.

I'm also not a pilot either but that wouldn't stop me from either noticing or making a huge-ass fuss if the engines of the plane were on fire.

So your point is?

So, the pilot should defer his judgement to the passengers when his plane is on fire? I'm sure that will be the best way to handle the situation. Your analogy is irrelevant to this conversation.

I'm not saying things are great or horrible, only that without relevant experience, demanding that there has "been enough time" is an invalid argument.

Maybe if he/she is an fire fighter, but seriously, you really don't have to be a programmer to know what would work or not work in a game.
I have created maps for Unreal, UT, CS, HL, and infiltration. I didn't need to know how the mechanics of making the object just how it would interact with the environment and how players would interact with such an object, either it being a door opening, operating a camera console, operating a switch or whatever.
So yes, outside suggestions do help since a wide range of people play games from the casual "ahhh shiny" player to the one that writes programs with their eyes closed while typing a thesis with their feet.

EnochRoot

Blackwidow wrote: »

I guess a year and 3 months to fix a bug is not long enough. That is how long some of these bugs have been in the game.

It depends on the bug. 3 years to fix a bug is not unreasonable when the cost for fixing it is more than the profit for leaving it.

Blackwidow wrote: »

However, it is not the bugs that is the cause of most of the complaints about ESO.

I agree, and I'm not simply talking about bug fixes, but about software development, the process of designing, building, verifying, and shipping software.

Fairydragon3

....IMO this poll/ thread needs more. Obviously just because you have some experience with development....i doesn't tell us how much.

With my limited Knowledge, when a normal console AAA title can take anywhere from 2-5 all remember this is an MMO with requires a lot more development time. If a feature isn't implemented, most likely it was put on the back burner to work on core features.

if feature B is 60% done, but there is an issue, they might decided to move on to finish feature A which is almost done, and under final polish.

Feature B is not implemented and is postponed so they can work on it an implement when it won't break

This is why I don't mind subscription games. Because there is still a budget for development, more features can eventually be added. A big plus, compared to single players where you best hope is if the game is mod able, and you or someone has made the mod you want

BBSooner

I create other software for a living.

Armchair coders will always exist to comment on coding even when they have 0 experience, and Armchair coaches will always exist to second guess their favorite teams decisions because they clearly have more insight while working at burger king than the professional. It's best to just laugh at them quietly to yourself and move on, it's like trying to explain statistics to a toddler.

Auralia

I have no development experience.

I don't demand anything, I don't see how your question has any relevance.
As companies like customer feedback for what they would like to be in game. My experience is I've played many games in my lifetime.

Your question is kind of like saying I am not a master chef so I am not allowed to say if a meal needs more flavour. Like ESO needs more flavour(features) that is something anyone can notice without having to have any software experience.

EnochRoot

Auralia wrote: »

I don't demand anything, I don't see how your question has any relevance.
As companies like customer feedback for what they would like to be in game. My experience is I've played many games in my lifetime.

Your question is kind of like saying I am not a master chef so I am not allowed to say if a meal needs more flavour. Like ESO needs more flavour(features) that is something anyone can notice without having to have any software experience.

You need to separate the product from the process. My poll has nothing to do with WHAT is created, but the demands about HOW the creation process should look. Demanding that "feature X should be in the game because the game has been in development 5-7 years" is a comment about the creation process. That argument boils down to Time = Features, when that's clearly a gross oversimplification of the process.

Using the chef analogy, you can tell the chef it needs more flavor and it's valid feedback. However, without RELEVANT experience, telling the chef that because your meal took 20 minutes to prepare it should have more salt in it, is NOT valid. See the difference?

Phantax

I create software as a hobby.

Make games for a hobby/fun.
Did some quite basic ones with Game Maker, now teaching myself Unity 3D and Blender.
(now all I need is a £200 million budget if anybody wants to sponsor me....lol)

EnochRoot

Phantax wrote: »

Make games for a hobby/fun.
Did some quite basic ones with Game Maker, now teaching myself Unity 3D and Blender.
(now all I need is a £200 million budget if anybody wants to sponsor me....lol)

Kickstarter that ***!

Rodario

I have no development experience.

The only features I have suggested so far are ones I have seen in other games, the changes I requested relate to values like existing timers that can be adjusted, so I'm pretty sure they're doable. In some cases easily, in others it would surely take some time and effort.

Dayv

I create other software for a living.

I know there's no such thing as a five-minute job when writing software, but I sometimes think ZOS doesn't realise that given the number of bugs I've seen introduced into the game. I think ZOS have tried to rush things and cut corners with quality quite often. I write software for aircraft and I don't expect them to have to follow as stringent procedures as I do as no lives are at risk, but if I was as sloppy as ZOS appear to be I could not only be fired but literally end up in prison.

steveb16_ESO46

I have no development experience.

EnochRoot wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

I have no experience.

I'm also not a pilot either but that wouldn't stop me from either noticing or making a huge-ass fuss if the engines of the plane were on fire.

So your point is?

So, the pilot should defer his judgement to the passengers when his plane is on fire? I'm sure that will be the best way to handle the situation. Your analogy is irrelevant to this conversation.

Too damn right the pilot should if the engines are on fire. I would be bemused by your intentions in this thread but those are obvious. But hand-wave away if it makes you feel all white knight.

Rivqua

I create software as a hobby.

If making "Hangman" back in the days on commandor 64 a programmer then yes.

Soloeus

I won't vote in a trash poll like this, I gave you an LOL to mock you and make fun of you. You are setting up a bait-and-switch with an Appeal To Authority (on the grounds of only people with "Software Experience" should have the right to express opinions or think anything).

Your argument form is also Anti-Democracy and Anti-Freedom of Speech. We have a society where everyone who is and adult and isn't a felon can vote. We don't exclude people from expressing their views because they aren't a billionare, or because they don't have 10 years of experience as an Auto Mechanic. Instead, people who know nothing at all about cars are allowed to discuss their woes and comment about things they don't like.

This poll is pretty much here to make attacks against a group you created called "Complainers" that you can just lump anyone into. And your first assault is to question their rights to speak based on a lack of expertise.

GreySix

I create software as a hobby.

Changing code in something as complex as an MMO like ESO is no easy feat. Fixing bugs is really nothing other than altering existing code in an effort to eliminate the buggy game-play.

But in something as massive as ESO, any alteration of the code will by necessity cascade into other sections of the game, possibly creating all-new bugs (as we've seen time and again). The challenge then becomes, are the new bugs created by the code alteration now worse than the old bugs that were eliminated?

Audigy

You forget press people, if someone knows about the development cycle that games have to go through its them.

JessieColt

I could not participate in your poll since there wasn't an option for what I do.

While I am not a Dev, I am CS Lead for a game company and I work directly with the QA and Dev Teams on 2 of our products. This means I have direct knowledge of what they are working on and our weekly meetings discuss all things related to the games, including development and future content along with me personally providing the teams with information regarding feedback from the users regarding pain points in the games and where tweaks/changes could be made to make the experience easier for the users.

So while I am not a Dev, I have first hand personal knowledge of what is involved in working on games that have 500,000+ user accounts.

Merlin13KAGL

EnochRoot wrote: »

As a software developer myself, I'm getting tired of "Why don't we have <feature X>??? They spent 5 years making this game!!!" I'm pretty convinced that MOST people on this board have little to NO experience in the software development realm.

@EnochRoot I'm a programmer, period. Started in 8-bit land and done everything in between since. (I'll let someone else do the math.)

There are some other tiers in between that are not accounted for in your poll.

People making demands, no. People grasping the sheer magnitude of what's involved in making something that does what this does, in most cases, no. (Heck, people grasping the sheer magnitude of what they were doing 20 years ago, no...)

But, what is also not accounted for is the variety and quantity of useful (keyword, here) feedback that is made available.

Unfortunately, it's not just about the software development process anymore. The whole project has other determining factors that lead to differing priorities.

This part is unseen, more often than not, and is some of what leads to frustration on the customer's point of view, and likely the coders, as well.

In truth, the devs would probably love to fix this or implement that, but their priorities are determined by other people who are looking at other factors.

It's a very different process than it was 56 bits and a whole-lotta-K's ago.

While your poll looks to expose (lack of) experience, it also shows bias the other direction.