Gear Upgrades Refund?
kirnmalidus
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I'm curious what (if any) is the plan for ensuring people don't get royally screwed by the changes to the gear sets.
I know a lot of people in game have looked at the new site bonuses from 1.3 and realized that the build they were using with the current armor set won't work when these changes go live.
Many of these people (myself included) at level cap have invested a LOT of gold into tempers/alloys/rosins to upgrade their current sets to Legendary. These are some of your most dedicated players with the most time invested in the game, and 1.3 is going to be a real mess for their gear.
ZOS has stated there will be free skill respecs for skill trees that are changed significantly. I'd argue the changes to the gear sets will have a much bigger impact on many builds than the skill changes in 1.3.
So, is there a plan to provide some sort of compensation to those of us whose (bound) gear is being made worthless by 1.3?
I know a lot of people in game have looked at the new site bonuses from 1.3 and realized that the build they were using with the current armor set won't work when these changes go live.
Many of these people (myself included) at level cap have invested a LOT of gold into tempers/alloys/rosins to upgrade their current sets to Legendary. These are some of your most dedicated players with the most time invested in the game, and 1.3 is going to be a real mess for their gear.
ZOS has stated there will be free skill respecs for skill trees that are changed significantly. I'd argue the changes to the gear sets will have a much bigger impact on many builds than the skill changes in 1.3.
So, is there a plan to provide some sort of compensation to those of us whose (bound) gear is being made worthless by 1.3?
Life of a Nightblade (Screenshot Tumblr)
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO
2
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Doskias✭✭I feel your pain as well. I just literally made a Caster DPS set about 2 hours before the sets were posted for 1.3. I had upgraded everything to legendary. Made 11 pieces in total. So that is over 300k gold essentially wasted coming in a few weeks. I hope either they will try to re-figure the set bonuses to keep it more inline with their original purpose or find some way to turn in the old gear or make them temporarily trade-able or something.Edited by Doskias on July 11, 2014 8:02PM1 -
Alephen✭✭✭i have played many mmos. almost all of them had points where the best in slot piece of gear became not the best in slot piece of gear. none of them have refunded for the now obsolete pieces.2 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's already a really long discussion about this, and it's on the front page of the forums.1 -
kirnmalidus✭✭✭✭@Alephen - But I'm guessing this was primarily due to level cap increase? I'm OK with that and I realize that will happen eventually, but changing how the gear functions is not quite the same.
@DeLindsay - I don't see the post your referencing. Can you post a link please?Life of a Nightblade (Screenshot Tumblr)
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO0 -
SirJesto✭✭✭kirnmalidus wrote: »@Alephen - But I'm guessing this was primarily due to level cap increase? I'm OK with that and I realize that will happen eventually, but changing how the gear functions is not quite the same.
@DeLindsay - I don't see the post your referencing. Can you post a link please?
I played NWO and was one of the people that got hit when they changed how the Stalwart Bulwark armor set mechanics worked effectively making it terrible. I had probably put 3 million gold into the set (Diff. economy I know) with dyes enchants etc. and I and a TON of others were SOL. It will be the same here.0 -
Iorail✭✭✭✭Simple answer? No, they will not refund anything and the real question would be, Why would they refund anything?3 -
indytims_ESO✭✭✭✭It makes no sense that you max out your gear within 3 months of launch - and then hope to sit back and never, ever upgrade your gear again - or replace it.
Knowing what's coming, you should be preparing to replace your current gear - just like everyone else does.
Meaning: a refund is a silly idea. The game evolves. Yes, I've been 'screwed' like this in MANY games before, and it's simply evolution. Fight it - and be miserable and grumpy. Or, embrace it, prepare yourself, and move on.
Personally, I am a huge advocate of gear 'wearing down' over time and -requiring- replacement anyway. -This- is what would stimulate an 'economy'. An economy requires consumers, and consumers -consume-. To slap a bunch of gear on your character, max it out and sit back expecting it to never go bad, deteriorate, or require replacement is just plain silly.
Yes, the changes in the sets are not exactly the same thing as item wear/deterioration - but the end result is. Get new gear, or start saving your mats for it.4 -
ShiftControl✭✭@ indytims_ESO ✭✭✭
Its devolution not evolution. When they make a caster gear into a tank gear.
Its like you take your ride to a shop to customize it, you ask for a race car and you will end up with off road truck wouldn't you ask for refund?
If they introduce new gear keeping the old one it would be a different story we can not complain in fact we would be happy.
I bet you don't have 1 single pc of gold gear along with all others who is denying this whole problem existents3 -
Iorail✭✭✭✭ShiftControl wrote: »I bet you don't have 1 single pc of gold gear along with all others who is denying this whole problem existence
You are completely incorrect on this, I have not 1 but 2 sets of legendary gear/weapons for my character but I'm not crying a river like a lot of you are. Why? Because I fully knew this was going to happen due to 90% of the server using only 2 sets. There is a reason why this game is called Elder Casters Online, common now.
Granted I'm a 6+ traits crafter across all skills and I do craft my own and others gear/weapons, I still have an investment that is lost with the changes. But that is not an excuse for me to come to the forums like a 14 year old crying for gear/materials refund. I'll just re-gather the materials for myself and I'll craft whatever new is best for my character. Everyone else can also do the same simply because the changes are still a month+ away and you and others have plenty of time to get it all back.4 -
ShiftControl✭✭Amazingly some folks just get a hold of 176 gold upgrades and 22 kuta as well and they make their own gear wow how could they do all that ? I guess you have 7 alts as well . So you guys have also 260 skills points + as well.
If you blow my tire intentionally you have to pay for my damages. In this case if they ruin my gear they have to pay for it
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]Edited by ZOS_JuhoJ on July 15, 2014 3:42AM1 -
SirJesto✭✭✭ShiftControl wrote: »Amazingly some folks just get a hold of 176 gold upgrades and 22 kuta as well and they make their own gear wow how could they do all that ? I guess you have 7 alts as well . So you guys have also 260 skills points + as well.
If you blow my tire intentionally you have to pay for my damages. In this case if they ruin my gear they have to pay for it
Actually according to the TOS it isn't your gear. It isn't even your character. ZOS is the owner of everything on their servers so that is why you won't get a refund.
Cool huh?
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]Edited by ZOS_JuhoJ on July 15, 2014 3:42AM2 -
fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Doubt it.kirnmalidus wrote: »So, is there a plan to provide some sort of compensation to those of us whose (bound) gear is being made worthless by 1.3?
After all, your 'leet' gear will become outdated when VR14 appears .. or whatever will replaced that in the Champion system.
I don't get this complaint from those who want their 'leet' gear to be the best forever, MMOs don't work like that. You know it doesn't so why spend ages obtaining today's BiS which will be replaced by tomorrow's and then complain about it?
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on July 14, 2014 10:06AM1 -
kirnmalidus✭✭✭✭ShiftControl wrote: »I bet you don't have 1 single pc of gold gear along with all others who is denying this whole problem existence
You are completely incorrect on this, I have not 1 but 2 sets of legendary gear/weapons for my character but I'm not crying a river like a lot of you are. Why? Because I fully knew this was going to happen due to 90% of the server using only 2 sets. There is a reason why this game is called Elder Casters Online, common now.
Granted I'm a 6+ traits crafter across all skills and I do craft my own and others gear/weapons, I still have an investment that is lost with the changes. But that is not an excuse for me to come to the forums like a 14 year old crying for gear/materials refund. I'll just re-gather the materials for myself and I'll craft whatever new is best for my character. Everyone else can also do the same simply because the changes are still a month+ away and you and others have plenty of time to get it all back.
Sorry, this is my first MMO so I'm not used to things working this way. I don't think my post was whining per se, I was asking a question. No need to be rude and devolve to insults.
Like I said I'm aware of the fact that gear eventually becomes out-dated when they raise the level cap. That isn't what happened here though - they are changing how the gear works so some sets do completely different things.
Personally I'm a Nightblade running Hunding's Rage and Night Mother, so I think the changes will be an improvement for me. I just know that they aren't for a lot of people.Life of a Nightblade (Screenshot Tumblr)
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO2 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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This is not the way MMOs work. Gear becoming invalidated typically comes with new content - I collect my gear, get stronger, then new, more difficult content is released that drops better gear, so I go and starting picking that up, replacing my gear piece by piece. That is how MMOs work. That is the expectation. I get new content, you get my money vis a vi my time spent grinding new gear.kirnmalidus wrote: »ShiftControl wrote: »I bet you don't have 1 single pc of gold gear along with all others who is denying this whole problem existence
You are completely incorrect on this, I have not 1 but 2 sets of legendary gear/weapons for my character but I'm not crying a river like a lot of you are. Why? Because I fully knew this was going to happen due to 90% of the server using only 2 sets. There is a reason why this game is called Elder Casters Online, common now.
Granted I'm a 6+ traits crafter across all skills and I do craft my own and others gear/weapons, I still have an investment that is lost with the changes. But that is not an excuse for me to come to the forums like a 14 year old crying for gear/materials refund. I'll just re-gather the materials for myself and I'll craft whatever new is best for my character. Everyone else can also do the same simply because the changes are still a month+ away and you and others have plenty of time to get it all back.
Sorry, this is my first MMO so I'm not used to things working this way. I don't think my post was whining per se, I was asking a question. No need to be rude and devolve to insults.
Like I said I'm aware of the fact that gear eventually becomes out-dated when they raise the level cap. That isn't what happened here though - they are changing how the gear works so some sets do completely different things.
Personally I'm a Nightblade running Hunding's Rage and Night Mother, so I think the changes will be an improvement for me. I just know that they aren't for a lot of people.
Completely changing entire sets of crafted gear is absolutely not the norm. I've never seen that happen before.
The only logical reason to be against crafted gear compensation is if you sell crafting materials and are hoping to make a huge profit off of this change.2 -
SirJesto✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »
This is not the way MMOs work. Gear becoming invalidated typically comes with new content - I collect my gear, get stronger, then new, more difficult content is released that drops better gear, so I go and starting picking that up, replacing my gear piece by piece. That is how MMOs work. That is the expectation. I get new content, you get my money vis a vi my time spent grinding new gear.kirnmalidus wrote: »ShiftControl wrote: »I bet you don't have 1 single pc of gold gear along with all others who is denying this whole problem existence
You are completely incorrect on this, I have not 1 but 2 sets of legendary gear/weapons for my character but I'm not crying a river like a lot of you are. Why? Because I fully knew this was going to happen due to 90% of the server using only 2 sets. There is a reason why this game is called Elder Casters Online, common now.
Granted I'm a 6+ traits crafter across all skills and I do craft my own and others gear/weapons, I still have an investment that is lost with the changes. But that is not an excuse for me to come to the forums like a 14 year old crying for gear/materials refund. I'll just re-gather the materials for myself and I'll craft whatever new is best for my character. Everyone else can also do the same simply because the changes are still a month+ away and you and others have plenty of time to get it all back.
Sorry, this is my first MMO so I'm not used to things working this way. I don't think my post was whining per se, I was asking a question. No need to be rude and devolve to insults.
Like I said I'm aware of the fact that gear eventually becomes out-dated when they raise the level cap. That isn't what happened here though - they are changing how the gear works so some sets do completely different things.
Personally I'm a Nightblade running Hunding's Rage and Night Mother, so I think the changes will be an improvement for me. I just know that they aren't for a lot of people.
Completely changing entire sets of crafted gear is absolutely not the norm. I've never seen that happen before.
The only logical reason to be against crafted gear compensation is if you sell crafting materials and are hoping to make a huge profit off of this change.
If you refer to any of my posts in this thread you will understand.0 -
SBR_QuorTek✭✭✭Sorry people migth be spoiled from other games, it is just about getting back on to the horse... and redo stuff.
Not a fan of giving people their mats back either here.. feel free to hate though, but as many others I just accept the changes and move on because I don't like everything should just be given to me.1 -
kirnmalidus✭✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »I have yet to hear a good reason why materials shouldn't be refunded.
Yeah, all people seem to be able to come up with is "deal with it, that's how it is" and comparisons that fail the logic test because they are not similar to the situation we are discussing.
Again, level cap increases are a logical reason to need to replace gear. I am OK with that and understand that situation will happen eventually.
Gear becoming useless because they changed how it works in order to deal with mistakes that were made in the game's content at release and other balancing issues (all of which were made clear in beta and could easily have been solved before launch) is not the same as level cap increases making gear useless.Life of a Nightblade (Screenshot Tumblr)
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO0 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭kirnmalidus wrote: »Gear becoming useless because they changed how it works in order to deal with mistakes that were made in the game's content at release and other balancing issues (all of which were made clear in beta and could easily have been solved before launch) is not the same as level cap increases making gear useless.
My concern with this would be the precedent it sets. If they were to refund on this occasion, then where is the line? How do you define "Enough of a change" that would trigger a refund, but not include every tweak, rebalance or unintended consequence that might occur during the rest of the lifetime of the game?
One reason I would stick to a "no refunds" policy is that if it were broken on this occasion then as soon as you got as much as a tooltip text change in the future then you would get players (perhaps only a minority, but still) claiming on the boards that it invalidated their intended gear build and should therefore form the basis for a refund. That is certainly a line of thought I would have to consider very carefully if I were a developer.
However, I am not. And while I might appreciate a refund, were it to come our way, I certainly wouldn't blame them if it didn't and have no sense that one is either owed to me or that I am entitled to one should such changes occur.2 -
SirJesto✭✭✭kirnmalidus wrote: »Maverick827 wrote: »I have yet to hear a good reason why materials shouldn't be refunded.
Yeah, all people seem to be able to come up with is "deal with it, that's how it is" and comparisons that fail the logic test because they are not similar to the situation we are discussing.
Again, level cap increases are a logical reason to need to replace gear. I am OK with that and understand that situation will happen eventually.
Gear becoming useless because they changed how it works in order to deal with mistakes that were made in the game's content at release and other balancing issues (all of which were made clear in beta and could easily have been solved before launch) is not the same as level cap increases making gear useless.
Again If you read All my posts you will get it.0 -
kirnmalidus✭✭✭✭kirnmalidus wrote: »Maverick827 wrote: »I have yet to hear a good reason why materials shouldn't be refunded.
Yeah, all people seem to be able to come up with is "deal with it, that's how it is" and comparisons that fail the logic test because they are not similar to the situation we are discussing.
Again, level cap increases are a logical reason to need to replace gear. I am OK with that and understand that situation will happen eventually.
Gear becoming useless because they changed how it works in order to deal with mistakes that were made in the game's content at release and other balancing issues (all of which were made clear in beta and could easily have been solved before launch) is not the same as level cap increases making gear useless.
Again If you read All my posts you will get it.
Get what? That you know the meaning of the acronym SOL? You honestly haven't really contributed anything useful to this thread so I don't understand why you keep telling me and others to go back and read your earlier pointless posts.Life of a Nightblade (Screenshot Tumblr)
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO1 -
SirJesto✭✭✭kirnmalidus wrote: »kirnmalidus wrote: »Maverick827 wrote: »I have yet to hear a good reason why materials shouldn't be refunded.
Yeah, all people seem to be able to come up with is "deal with it, that's how it is" and comparisons that fail the logic test because they are not similar to the situation we are discussing.
Again, level cap increases are a logical reason to need to replace gear. I am OK with that and understand that situation will happen eventually.
Gear becoming useless because they changed how it works in order to deal with mistakes that were made in the game's content at release and other balancing issues (all of which were made clear in beta and could easily have been solved before launch) is not the same as level cap increases making gear useless.
Again If you read All my posts you will get it.
Get what? That you know the meaning of the acronym SOL? You honestly haven't really contributed anything useful to this thread so I don't understand why you keep telling me and others to go back and read your earlier pointless posts.
You read them all did you sunshine?0 -
SirJesto✭✭✭I gave an example of an exact thing happening in another MMO and players weren't refunded. I also brought to light to players that may not be aware of this, that your gear is actually ZOS property so they are under no obligation to give you a refund.
Pointless? I think not.0 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭How can they change anything, if they have to make it up to all the people who went full monty on a particular aspect of the game?
Go ahead, blow up my crap to make the game better.0 -
BrassRazoo✭✭✭✭✭If you/they are some of the most dedicated players with the most time invested, upgrading your gear should not cost anything at all.
It does suck, but should be easy to upgrade again.
I assume this situation will keep happening with each level cap increase as well.0 -
ShiftControl✭✭
Since you are a lawyer now:ShiftControl wrote: »Amazingly some folks just get a hold of 176 gold upgrades and 22 kuta as well and they make their own gear wow how could they do all that ? I guess you have 7 alts as well . So you guys have also 260 skills points + as well.
If you blow my tire intentionally you have to pay for my damages. In this case if they ruin my gear they have to pay for it
Actually according to the TOS it isn't your gear. It isn't even your character. ZOS is the owner of everything on their servers so that is why you won't get a refund.
Cool huh?
we suffer Punitive damages if they ruin the existing gear sets
(if it would be green who cares)
If they introduce new sets no case,
if they raise the lvl cap no case
If they ruin caster gear and becomes a tank gear overnight we suffer Punitive damages. go wiki Punitive damages.
acording TOS is not your gear: in a word you can not sell it to gain capital
but its still yours to use or even DELETE. You put tons game time and gold in it, and it lost or damaged, you entiteld for refund period. ask your dad
"lets say you rent a car (which not yours) and the rental company driver crash it they will gave you an other car, and you don't have to pay for the damages. If they can't gave you an other car they will refund your money" Cant explain it any clearer
closed my case
By the way it looks like they will introduce totally new gear sets with new and better stats anyway, so don't know who started to stir the crap in this forums.
you got to wake up earlier in order to push me in the corner
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]
Edited by ZOS_JuhoJ on July 15, 2014 3:48AM0 -
ShiftControl✭✭
Just curious where did you get the idea they will ruin our gear, I was in PTS today all I saw nice NEW gear sets with better stats and jewels as well.kirnmalidus wrote: »I'm curious what (if any) is the plan for ensuring people don't get royally screwed by the changes to the gear sets.
I know a lot of people in game have looked at the new site bonuses from 1.3 and realized that the build they were using with the current armor set won't work when these changes go live.
Many of these people (myself included) at level cap have invested a LOT of gold into tempers/alloys/rosins to upgrade their current sets to Legendary. These are some of your most dedicated players with the most time invested in the game, and 1.3 is going to be a real mess for their gear.
ZOS has stated there will be free skill respecs for skill trees that are changed significantly. I'd argue the changes to the gear sets will have a much bigger impact on many builds than the skill changes in 1.3.
So, is there a plan to provide some sort of compensation to those of us whose (bound) gear is being made worthless by 1.3?
I bumped into an other poster he was posting numbers like this set got nerfed that set got nerfed but there is no evidence yet.
By the way If they do so I'm sure they will refund faith my friend faith
0 -
IceDread✭✭✭Sounds strange that they'd have something completely.
Tweaking something would be one thing but what are they thinking?0 -
SirJesto✭✭✭ShiftControl wrote: »
Since you are a lawyer now:ShiftControl wrote: »Amazingly some folks just get a hold of 176 gold upgrades and 22 kuta as well and they make their own gear wow how could they do all that ? I guess you have 7 alts as well . So you guys have also 260 skills points + as well.
If you blow my tire intentionally you have to pay for my damages. In this case if they ruin my gear they have to pay for it
Actually according to the TOS it isn't your gear. It isn't even your character. ZOS is the owner of everything on their servers so that is why you won't get a refund.
Cool huh?
we suffer Punitive damages if they ruin the existing gear sets
(if it would be green who cares)
If they introduce new sets no case,
if they raise the lvl cap no case
If they ruin caster gear and becomes a tank gear overnight we suffer Punitive damages. go wiki Punitive damages.
acording TOS is not your gear: in a word you can not sell it to gain capital
but its still yours to use or even DELETE. You put tons game time and gold in it, and it lost or damaged, you entiteld for refund period. ask your dad
"lets say you rent a car (which not yours) and the rental company driver crash it they will gave you an other car, and you don't have to pay for the damages. If they can't gave you an other car they will refund your money" Cant explain it any clearer
closed my case
By the way it looks like they will introduce totally new gear sets with new and better stats anyway, so don't know who started to stir the crap in this forums.
you got to wake up earlier in order to push me in the corner
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]
I understand you are upset, but you are still wrong.
Taken directly from the TOS:
By creating an Account, You agree that You do not own the Account, any user names created on the Account, any content stored or associated with an Account (such as digital and/or virtual assets, achievements, virtual currency, and other Downloadable Content), or related data associated with the Account.
I wake up pretty early.1