Fix for Impulse Spam (Suggestion)

Cody

I do get very annoyed by it(seeing staffers spam it for entire fights does annoy me greatly) but I don't think it needs to be nerfed or anything, but if anything is done to it, i think their armor/ spell resistance should go down while using it. the more they cast it, the more it would go down. im not saying take it down to zero, but lower it to the point where you can die very quickly.. immovable would not save you then, and it would discourage huge giant pulsar trains. i don't think it should be completely nerfed to uselessness though, then vet dungeons would be a nightmare lol

Lowbei

nukeyoo wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

most daoc players used the vnboards, since daoc had no official forums, and most all of them had their toons in their sigs, since that game had about 50ish classes. you obviously dont have any toons worth mentioning from there, no offense.

and theres no difference between daoc zergers whining till moc was nerfed, and eso zergers whining until ae caps were introduced.

crushed, again, sorry "buttercup"

You're more then welcome to state as many reasons as you'd like for wanting people to recognize you from your signature. Like I said anybody worth remembering is usually due to their game play; not some signature. The reason I don't pay them much mind.

The people I might care about recognizing me; do so. And the others well there seems to be a lack of caring. I'm not some try hard that thinks his actions in a video game need recognition.

So now we're comparing a nerf to a single ability to a nerf on all aoe caps... LOL

Please press it again and tell me how I've been "crushed", buttercup.

i honestly wouldnt mind if they added a cast timer to impulse, i dont use it that often

nukeyoo

Lowbei wrote: »

nukeyoo wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

most daoc players used the vnboards, since daoc had no official forums, and most all of them had their toons in their sigs, since that game had about 50ish classes. you obviously dont have any toons worth mentioning from there, no offense.

and theres no difference between daoc zergers whining till moc was nerfed, and eso zergers whining until ae caps were introduced.

crushed, again, sorry "buttercup"

You're more then welcome to state as many reasons as you'd like for wanting people to recognize you from your signature. Like I said anybody worth remembering is usually due to their game play; not some signature. The reason I don't pay them much mind.

The people I might care about recognizing me; do so. And the others well there seems to be a lack of caring. I'm not some try hard that thinks his actions in a video game need recognition.

So now we're comparing a nerf to a single ability to a nerf on all aoe caps... LOL

Please press it again and tell me how I've been "crushed", buttercup.

i honestly wouldnt mind if they added a cast timer to impulse, i dont use it that often

My comments have never been about whether or not it needs a nerf, buttercup.

Smogg

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

The issue seems to be that large groups are able to run non-stop just spamming impulse without making themselves vulnerable.

The main strength of these kind of groups is usually that they coordinate in team speak. There are many really strong tactics a well organized ts group can apply. This is just one of many. Be careful not to confuse ts advantage with the strength of a single skill or a single tactic.
A group like this can be picked apart by any other well organized group. You can apply the same tactic as they do, which is of course just as efficient. But also:
- Lures into oil pot traps
- Rooms with suppression fields
- Eating their tail
- Deploying camps and wear them down.
are just some of many ways to deal with them.
So no, while it's a nice tactic, it does not make the impulse casters invulnerable if they face an equally well organized group of the same numbers. It makes them dangerous but predictable.

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

To fix this, what if Impulse was given a small cast time, say .5 sec to 1 sec.

I think you misunderstand the dynamics of the impulse train. While impulse is a good skill to apply there, a nerf like you suggest would just make casters alternate between impulse and a second aoe. The strength of the tactic lies in the group buffs and heals that gives a very strong stack of buffs for everyone in the party. Combined with the aoe caps, it also provide safety in numbers.

With regards to if a fix is needed at all. I would say no, since this is just one of many tactics currently applied by organized groups in pvp.

In general people also have the strange conception that the only solution is to nerf something, which is just plain limited. Often a much better solution is to strengthen other skills, to provide a viable counter against methods that are deemed too undesirable for pvp. For instance. removing the aoe caps would really discourage players running around in a big pile.

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

Of course damage could be slightly increased to compensate for the new cast time if needed, but I wanted to fish for thoughts on this suggestion.

That's my thoughts. And apologies in advance. I wanted to chip in on your original post. I have not been through the whole thread of replies.

quakedawg_ESO

Smogg wrote: »

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

The issue seems to be that large groups are able to run non-stop just spamming impulse without making themselves vulnerable.

The main strength of these kind of groups is usually that they coordinate in team speak. There are many really strong tactics a well organized ts group can apply. This is just one of many. Be careful not to confuse ts advantage with the strength of a single skill or a single tactic.
A group like this can be picked apart by any other well organized group. You can apply the same tactic as they do, which is of course just as efficient. But also:
- Lures into oil pot traps
- Rooms with suppression fields
- Eating their tail
- Deploying camps and wear them down.
are just some of many ways to deal with them.
So no, while it's a nice tactic, it does not make the impulse casters invulnerable if they face an equally well organized group of the same numbers. It makes them dangerous but predictable.

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

To fix this, what if Impulse was given a small cast time, say .5 sec to 1 sec.

I think you misunderstand the dynamics of the impulse train. While impulse is a good skill to apply there, a nerf like you suggest would just make casters alternate between impulse and a second aoe. The strength of the tactic lies in the group buffs and heals that gives a very strong stack of buffs for everyone in the party. Combined with the aoe caps, it also provide safety in numbers.

With regards to if a fix is needed at all. I would say no, since this is just one of many tactics currently applied by organized groups in pvp.

In general people also have the strange conception that the only solution is to nerf something, which is just plain limited. Often a much better solution is to strengthen other skills, to provide a viable counter against methods that are deemed too undesirable for pvp. For instance. removing the aoe caps would really discourage players running around in a big pile.

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

Of course damage could be slightly increased to compensate for the new cast time if needed, but I wanted to fish for thoughts on this suggestion.

That's my thoughts. And apologies in advance. I wanted to chip in on your original post. I have not been through the whole thread of replies.

This guy gets it. Good post.

Lowbei

nukeyoo wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

nukeyoo wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

most daoc players used the vnboards, since daoc had no official forums, and most all of them had their toons in their sigs, since that game had about 50ish classes. you obviously dont have any toons worth mentioning from there, no offense.

and theres no difference between daoc zergers whining till moc was nerfed, and eso zergers whining until ae caps were introduced.

crushed, again, sorry "buttercup"

You're more then welcome to state as many reasons as you'd like for wanting people to recognize you from your signature. Like I said anybody worth remembering is usually due to their game play; not some signature. The reason I don't pay them much mind.

The people I might care about recognizing me; do so. And the others well there seems to be a lack of caring. I'm not some try hard that thinks his actions in a video game need recognition.

So now we're comparing a nerf to a single ability to a nerf on all aoe caps... LOL

Please press it again and tell me how I've been "crushed", buttercup.

i honestly wouldnt mind if they added a cast timer to impulse, i dont use it that often

My comments have never been about whether or not it needs a nerf, buttercup.

you failed so i moved on to avoid hearing you whine about it until page 5

[self edited to avoid being mean ]

Aeaeren

Lowbei wrote: »

nukeyoo wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

nukeyoo wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

most daoc players used the vnboards, since daoc had no official forums, and most all of them had their toons in their sigs, since that game had about 50ish classes. you obviously dont have any toons worth mentioning from there, no offense.

and theres no difference between daoc zergers whining till moc was nerfed, and eso zergers whining until ae caps were introduced.

crushed, again, sorry "buttercup"

You're more then welcome to state as many reasons as you'd like for wanting people to recognize you from your signature. Like I said anybody worth remembering is usually due to their game play; not some signature. The reason I don't pay them much mind.

The people I might care about recognizing me; do so. And the others well there seems to be a lack of caring. I'm not some try hard that thinks his actions in a video game need recognition.

So now we're comparing a nerf to a single ability to a nerf on all aoe caps... LOL

Please press it again and tell me how I've been "crushed", buttercup.

i honestly wouldnt mind if they added a cast timer to impulse, i dont use it that often

My comments have never been about whether or not it needs a nerf, buttercup.

you failed so i moved on to avoid hearing you whine about it until page 5

[self edited to avoid being mean ]

You must have gotten the beat down letter too uh? I wasn't being mean when the PC police jumped me.

Adrastes

hands off from impulse. atleast in PVE. i don't give any *** about PVP tho.

pitdemon_ESO

If they made Talons a GTAE they would solve a ton of problems at once.

Impulse spam? Talons + Range

Invasion + Root bug - Fixed

No talent one button mashers - Smashed


Or they could implement solid players/clipping in PvP and let tanks...tank by blocking AE.

It's sad, but the best way to fight an impulse group is by avoiding it entirely until you outnumber them

Lowbei

yes, the forum police have asked me to avoid upsetting the natives, so i try to self edit my posts in accordance to their "have a polite war" decree.

i agree that ranged cc would be a nice counter to the impulse spam, but im not sure it should come from dks, they have enough love. why not from templars? it would fix their escape issues imo

pitdemon_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

yes, the forum police have asked me to avoid making people cry, so i try to self edit my posts in accordance to their "have a polite war" decree.

i agree that ranged cc would be a nice counter to the impulse spam, but im not sure it should come from dks, they have enough love. why not from templars? it would fix their escape issues imo

That's actually a wonderful idea, I was just looking for tweaks to existing skills.

The devs are looking at ways to improve the Templar line currently so now may be the only time to get new skills implemented honestly.

shanersimms_ESO

Smogg wrote: »

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

The issue seems to be that large groups are able to run non-stop just spamming impulse without making themselves vulnerable.

The main strength of these kind of groups is usually that they coordinate in team speak. There are many really strong tactics a well organized ts group can apply. This is just one of many. Be careful not to confuse ts advantage with the strength of a single skill or a single tactic.
A group like this can be picked apart by any other well organized group. You can apply the same tactic as they do, which is of course just as efficient. But also:
- Lures into oil pot traps
- Rooms with suppression fields
- Eating their tail
- Deploying camps and wear them down.
are just some of many ways to deal with them.
So no, while it's a nice tactic, it does not make the impulse casters invulnerable if they face an equally well organized group of the same numbers. It makes them dangerous but predictable.

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

To fix this, what if Impulse was given a small cast time, say .5 sec to 1 sec.

I think you misunderstand the dynamics of the impulse train. While impulse is a good skill to apply there, a nerf like you suggest would just make casters alternate between impulse and a second aoe. The strength of the tactic lies in the group buffs and heals that gives a very strong stack of buffs for everyone in the party. Combined with the aoe caps, it also provide safety in numbers.

With regards to if a fix is needed at all. I would say no, since this is just one of many tactics currently applied by organized groups in pvp.

In general people also have the strange conception that the only solution is to nerf something, which is just plain limited. Often a much better solution is to strengthen other skills, to provide a viable counter against methods that are deemed too undesirable for pvp. For instance. removing the aoe caps would really discourage players running around in a big pile.

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

Of course damage could be slightly increased to compensate for the new cast time if needed, but I wanted to fish for thoughts on this suggestion.

That's my thoughts. And apologies in advance. I wanted to chip in on your original post. I have not been through the whole thread of replies.

Hey Smogg, great response post and I appreciate your thoughtful input. I don't blame you for not scouring the entire thread for the back and forth responses in which a couple of my points were made clearer.

I agree with many of your points, but as I've tried pointing out in other responses, it's not that there isn't a possible way to counter the tactic. Your suggested counters are certainly viable. Furthermore, I've tried to reiterate (but some people just won't listen) that the proposed change isn't intended to nerf the ability by any means, but rather make the combat more dynamic overall in regards to this tactic. I've repeatedly pointed out a great change would be to increase the damage of impulse, but add a cast time to make those who wish to try and zerg train it become potentially vulnerable in that process.

The main issue has to do with the speed and mobility at which the Impulse spam zerg train can run to the center of a node, clean house in seconds, and turn it without many stable counter tactics. Again, it's not that this can't be countered with certain measures, but it just makes for "lame" gameplay overall. You shouldn't be inclined to abandon the node you're defending just to be out of the way of the zerg train. Taking a node, for example, should be a systematic process in which the attacker systematically overpowers the defenders and takes control of the node. With the current iteration, the best tactic for the defender is to move out of the way and abandon their position, then use many of the viable tactics you mentioned after the fact to retake their position.

As the post was intended, the gameplay I believe would be improved by catering to a "tug of war" mindset until a node is successfully defended or taken, rather than what currently feels like a zerg train vs zerg train roll fest until one side is dead.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

Lowbei

you are complaining that size often wins battles lol

also, you do realize that this forum has a signature feature right? that way you wont have to type your roleplayed lord title at the end of every post. just tryin to help

shanersimms_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

you are complaining that size often wins battles lol

also, you do realize that this forum has a signature feature right? that way you wont have to type your roleplayed lord title at the end of every post. just tryin to help

Yeah, I just haven't taken the time to set up an official sig, and considering it's only a single line I haven't worked up the enthusiasm to make an official sig lol. Thanks for the tip though, I may get around to doing that soon.

Oh and yeah size winning battles is fine in major imbalance situations, but I meant more along the lines of two equally sized forces running back and forth at each other in the aforementioned "zerg train" format.

I'm also a strong advocate that a smaller group of well-coordinated and skilled individuals should be able to defend against a larger sloppy group, so I don't think size of the group should be the sole determining factor of who wins a contestation. Again I feel with the zerg Impulse spam train tactic, which is a viable tactic at the moment with the way Impulse works, caters more to the zerg mentality rather than a skill/tactics mentality.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

Lowbei

nobody is arguing that a smaller group that plays better shouldnt beat a larger group, but nerfing aoes into the ground isnt going to fix the problem.

shanersimms_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

nobody is arguing that a smaller group that plays better shouldnt beat a larger group, but nerfing aoes into the ground isnt going to fix the problem.

Yet no one has suggested "nerfing the ability to the ground" as you say. The suggestion made by me was to modify the way the ability is utilized and nothing more.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

Lowbei

newsflash, adding a cast timer to an instant cast ability, is "nerfing it"

"into the ground" is debatable.

Baphomet

Only real effective counter to players turtling up and spam pulsar + AoE heals is seige equipment but mildly put that it not very handy.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pulsar but an effective counter to it is arguably needed, which is why I think Zenimax should rethink some of their ground based AoEs like elemental wall. If abilities like this hit a little harder, was cost efficient and had no target cap, I think they could address some of the increasing zerg ball trends.

shanersimms_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

newsflash, adding a cast timer to an instant cast ability, is "nerfing it"

"into the ground" is debatable.

Logicflash! (I will use theoretical easy numbers to make things clear):

Lets say Impulse can do 500 dmg and cast once per second without a cast timer (spamming). After 6 seconds you've done 3,000 damage. 3 second is 1,500 dmg etc. etc.

Let's now say you add a .5 second cast timer (meaning the ability can be cast effectively every 1.5 seconds) but increase the damage to 1000. After 3 seconds you've done 2,000 damage. After 6 seconds you've done 4,000 damage.

So you haven't nerfed the ability at all, you've simply changed how it's used. You've overall gained dps at the expense of being vulnerable while casting.

Your oversimplification and attempt at justifying your claim that simply adding a cast timer on an ability that was previously insta-cast is a nerf is fallacious, and ridiculously wrong.


-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

*Edited for typo and clarity due to previous math fail xD.

Lowbei

... yet in reality, the ability already has a 1sec animation, which would have to be modified to this new cast timer, resulting in now .5 sec spammed casts per your example, due to no GCD.

id be fine with a small cast timer tbh, but i think that adding ranged CC would fix the rainbow train problem more efficiently.

shanersimms_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

... yet in reality, the ability already has a 1sec animation, which would have to be modified to this new cast timer, resulting in now .5 sec spammed casts per your example, due to no GCD.

id be fine with a small cast timer tbh, but i think that adding ranged CC would fix the rainbow train problem more efficiently.

Right I was considering due to animation the max you could cast it right now would be once per second and with the .5 cast timer the fastest you could spam cast it would now be once every 1.5 seconds. Just as a hypothetical example.

There are a couple of ranged CC options as I'm sure you know (but limited in overall choice), such as bombard on the bow or restraining prison for sorcs, but in a coordinated group that all pops unstoppable the train is immune to direct CC for a good 4 seconds min lol.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

Lowbei

how would dropping a cast timer to .5seconds, make something become a 1.5 second cast?

its either a 1.5 second cast, or its not...

shanersimms_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

how would dropping a cast timer to .5seconds, make something become a 1.5 second cast?

its either a 1.5 second cast, or its not...

Because it figures in a 1 second total pre and post cast animation/game response time on top of the .5 sec actual ability cast timer. 1 second is clearly exaggerated for the time these processes actually take, but was used to keep the math easy. The principle is still valid.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

Infraction

Lowbei wrote: »

... yet in reality, the ability already has a 1sec animation, which would have to be modified to this new cast timer, resulting in now .5 sec spammed casts per your example, due to no GCD.

id be fine with a small cast timer tbh, but i think that adding ranged CC would fix the rainbow train problem more efficiently.

The rainbow train usually isn't very cc'able due to immovable. There are it of parts to it that make more than simply saying ranged cc will counter it.

The cast time would at least not allow someone to block while casting impulse meaning they take some damage from exposing themselves. Even I. DAOC as a pbaoe caster I was putting myself at risk when bombing. Sure there were some moves that got abused because they worked through walls but you were at equal risk to die if someone knew how to counter you. In ESO there is far less risk to the person bombing as it stands now.

Lowbei

its really not.

what you describe is a 1.5sec cast timer, and no amount of "response time" makes up for your other missing 1 second.

response time from the server (pre animation) takes about .2 seconds, and is not a part of the animation and is even qued before it starts during the previous cast.

Lowbei

Infraction wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

... yet in reality, the ability already has a 1sec animation, which would have to be modified to this new cast timer, resulting in now .5 sec spammed casts per your example, due to no GCD.

id be fine with a small cast timer tbh, but i think that adding ranged CC would fix the rainbow train problem more efficiently.

The rainbow train usually isn't very cc'able due to immovable. There are it of parts to it that make more than simply saying ranged cc will counter it.

The cast time would at least not allow someone to block while casting impulse meaning they take some damage from exposing themselves. Even I. DAOC as a pbaoe caster I was putting myself at risk when bombing. Sure there were some moves that got abused because they worked through walls but you were at equal risk to die if someone knew how to counter you. In ESO there is far less risk to the person bombing as it stands now.

i would be fine with a 1second cast timer on impulse.

dcincali

The problem isn't the Impulse, it's the groups of idiots that run into it.. Nerf stupid and Impulse wont be an issue.

jeradlub17_ESO

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

Hey Guys,

I wanted to post this suggestion to fix the zerg impulse spam tactic. The issue seems to be that large groups are able to run non-stop just spamming impulse without making themselves vulnerable. To fix this, what if Impulse was given a small cast time, say .5 sec to 1 sec. Something that is short so as not to nerf the ability to the ground for PvE, but make enough of a change that would force the caster to stand in place very briefly and be potentially vulnerable in that timeframe to interrupts. Of course damage could be slightly increased to compensate for the new cast time if needed, but I wanted to fish for thoughts on this suggestion.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

Sure they can do that when they do the same for talons, bats, standards, veil of blades, etc and every other aoe of any type. Guessing fairness never occured to you.

shanersimms_ESO

jeradlub17_ESO wrote: »

shanersimms_ESO wrote: »

Hey Guys,

I wanted to post this suggestion to fix the zerg impulse spam tactic. The issue seems to be that large groups are able to run non-stop just spamming impulse without making themselves vulnerable. To fix this, what if Impulse was given a small cast time, say .5 sec to 1 sec. Something that is short so as not to nerf the ability to the ground for PvE, but make enough of a change that would force the caster to stand in place very briefly and be potentially vulnerable in that timeframe to interrupts. Of course damage could be slightly increased to compensate for the new cast time if needed, but I wanted to fish for thoughts on this suggestion.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

Sure they can do that when they do the same for talons, bats, standards, veil of blades, etc and every other aoe of any type. Guessing fairness never occured to you.

The fallacies in this statement... like... I don't even....

Just wow.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline

shanersimms_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

its really not.

what you describe is a 1.5sec cast timer, and no amount of "response time" makes up for your other missing 1 second.

response time from the server (pre animation) takes about .2 seconds, and is not a part of the animation and is even qued before it starts during the previous cast.

This is inaccurate information and a clear disregard for the scenario. If there wasn't animating/processing time outside of the cast timer, then in the current state (where Impulse has no cast timer) the ability should be infinitely spam-able down to the smallest iteration of time, which it clearly is not.

Anyone following the scenario would realize the hypothetical cast time would be on top of the casting animations/game response time that is already in play.

-Lord Shaszahan, of The Septim Bloodline