Thoughts on Stamina/Magicka build balance

FoyaBeninax

1. Scale the power of all class abilities with (stamina+magicka)/2 rather than magicka alone. It is fine for them to consume magicka, as the biggest problem now with the class abilities is, if you are stamina build, they are not powerful enough to be actually used. If possible, add more stamina based weapon types. I would like to see spear and dart, or some woodworking based weapons, making woodworking more useful as well.

2. Make a magicka based counterpart set of stamina based dodge/block/CC breaking system, such as short-range teleport/summoning protective barrier/magic interrupt, with a set of animation. And let players chose from the two sets, or make a mechanism to trigger a certain set. For example, if current stamina>magicka, trigger the magicka set, or vice versa.

jrgray93

The problem I see with making stamina and magicka improve primary skills is that it then makes magicka worse. Why spend points in magicka when stamina will have the same effect on those spells as well as stamina abilities?

FoyaBeninax

jrgray93 wrote: »

The problem I see with making stamina and magicka improve primary skills is that it then makes magicka worse. Why spend points in magicka when stamina will have the same effect on those spells as well as stamina abilities?

Because they still consume magicka, and some of them are super useful. If you need to use them a lot, you have to put points on magicka.
And some other magicka based abilities are useful too.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

As I see one fundamental problem is that blocking/interrupting uses Stamina so stam-based builds are always going to be at a disadvantage as Magicka-based users don't use their main source of power to counter attacks like this.

Blocking and interrupting shouldn't use Stamina, period.

niocwy

I think they should rework all class skills.
Some would be "Spells" and based on magicka/spell damage/spell crit/go against spell resist.
The others would be just be "Abilities" and based on stamina/weapon damage/weapon crit/go against armor.

WebBull

The fact that all class skills (at least for DK) are all magicka based is definitely a problem. Some of the skills should be switch over to stamina. I am sure the same goes for other classes.

Swampster

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

As I see one fundamental problem is that blocking/interrupting uses Stamina so stam-based builds are always going to be at a disadvantage as Magicka-based users don't use their main source of power to counter attacks like this.

Blocking and interrupting shouldn't use Stamina, period.

Not to mention running around the corner, and being out of stamina before the fight with the bunch of mobs you've just ran into has even started!

IceDread

It's all really obvious.

The magica / stamina system for combat and skills was design by a very drunk person that refuses to admit he made a huge mistake, that the entire system is just screwed.

jrgray93

Yeah, I do find that stamina just has so much stacked against it besides damage output. Just about everything you do to stay alive is actively using stamina and that is a huge problem for its viability. On a magicka build, I can just sprint from encounter to encounter with no second thought about it. On stamina? You can forget about it.

FoyaBeninax

jrgray93 wrote: »

Yeah, I do find that stamina just has so much stacked against it besides damage output. Just about everything you do to stay alive is actively using stamina and that is a huge problem for its viability. On a magicka build, I can just sprint from encounter to encounter with no second thought about it. On stamina? You can forget about it.

Yeah, thanks for pointing it out. They also need to make magicka-based sprint.

kitsinni

I think they should just scale class skills with level and not stamina or magicka. Make dodge/roll/sprint a seperate resources completely.
It wouldn't be perfect but at least it would be a start. Everyone's class skills would do a baseline damage and then your build can go from there.

At this point I don't know what they should do honeslty the entire combat system would have to be reworked. Even if they did what you suggested, or I suggested you still have all of the class skills using Magicka as a resource. If you change all the weapon type class skills to Stamina then you are doing things like making NB's only execute a stamina skill. Even though it would require a lot of build changes and gear changes I guess it would make more sense than our current system. Then they run the risk of pissing off a lot of their current base though.

kitsinni

WebBull wrote: »

The fact that all class skills (at least for DK) are all magicka based is definitely a problem. Some of the skills should be switch over to stamina. I am sure the same goes for other classes.

All class skills for every class both scale with Magicka and use Magicka as a resource. Some rely on weapon crit some spell crit but all the damage comes from Magicka and they all use Magicka.

jrgray93

A fourth resource bar might be nice. Dedicate it to dodging / sprinting / interrupting. I'd say keep block as stamina though, since tanks with shields get so much reduction in that matter anyway and stamina management is part of playing a tank. That would give everyone a baseline for just how much you can do those things.

kitsinni

jrgray93 wrote: »

A fourth resource bar might be nice. Dedicate it to dodging / sprinting / interrupting. I'd say keep block as stamina though, since tanks with shields get so much reduction in that matter anyway and stamina management is part of playing a tank. That would give everyone a baseline for just how much you can do those things.

The only issue with it being used for blocking is that it just encourages tanks to use the undaunted taunt (Magicka) because after all that blocking you don't have the Stamina left to taunt with one hand/shield taunt anymore. I have actually had better luck tanking with all my glyphs in to Magicka to buff my class skills and use the undaunted taunt then I can just use my Stamina for blocking.

It just seems like one more thing that encourages people not to use weapon skills.

jrgray93

That is certainly a fair point regarding the undaunted taunt. I just don't want to see tanks doing nothing but blocking and taunting, effectively making them a two button class on bosses, so it has to come from SOME resource.

kitsinni

Honeslty I think this is the single most important discussion about he game in its current state, but no one seems to want to have it. ZOS just says "we know and are working on it" but they don't seem to want to give any hints as to what the answer is.

They seem to just want to add stamina recovery and buff weapon damage as an answer. The problem is that doesn't address the key issues that all class skills scale with and are based on Magicka, and there is currently one type of armor that buffs Magicka builds and two weapons that rely on it. It isn't hard to see why 75% of the game in all classes are running around in robes with staves.

jrgray93

I honestly fear that they don't want to do such a major overhaul of the stamina / magicka state. It really needs some basic fundamental changes and that's asking a lot, but it's necessary for real balance and variety.

frwinters_ESO

niocwy wrote: »

I think they should rework all class skills.
Some would be "Spells" and based on magicka/spell damage/spell crit/go against spell resist.
The others would be just be "Abilities" and based on stamina/weapon damage/weapon crit/go against armor.

i think i agree with this the most. Each class should have maybe 2-3 Stamina based abilities to even the builds out. Each skill tree for the class can have a mix of stamina based abilities and magicka based abilities.

I also believe what makes a big problem is the destruction staff and resto staff. these two weapons have become the most popular and there abilities are magicka based as well which better encourages magicka based builds. Now I agree, it would not feel really immersive to just change these staves to use stamina instead of magicka, but if all weapon skill lines were stamina based no matter what, you would probably see a change.

istateres

I think you're all missing the point, and the best option. Yes, all Class skills shouldn't use just Magicka; but let the PLAYER choose. As part of character creation, you should be able to select Magicka or Stamina to "fuel" your Class skills. Mages will likley WANT Magicka, but DBs may not. Don't have the developer change the way things work, let the players change IF they WANT.

Just my 2g.

Mescalamba

- change current Stamina to "Power"
- let "Power" affect weapon damage and be used for weapon abilities
- "Power" scales and works much like Magicka
- create third bar called "Stamina" under HP bar, used for spriting, blocking and CCing, scales with player level, modified only via set bonuses, enchants and passives tied to blocking, sprinting or CCing
- new "Stamina" bar should look a lot like horse stamina, just maybe bit thicker to be visible (you know what I mean anyway )

Problem solved.

WebBull

kitsinni wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

The fact that all class skills (at least for DK) are all magicka based is definitely a problem. Some of the skills should be switch over to stamina. I am sure the same goes for other classes.

All class skills for every class both scale with Magicka and use Magicka as a resource. Some rely on weapon crit some spell crit but all the damage comes from Magicka and they all use Magicka.

Exactly, which is a huge problem. Especially when the skill line for certain classes is better than the weapon lines. If class skills are are all built on 100% magicka, how are you every gong to make stamina builds truly viable?

deximasb14_ESO

Half the fun is building your stats around a build makes Stam builds fun and exciting. While the Stam weps and armor need to be fixed more the stats are fine just make cc break a cool down non cost or make it a bar that has to fill so it's not a cool down. Like ult type building of it

Xnemesis

I made this post awhile back and it is pretty much exactly what you are looking to do.

This may sound crazy but why not Just make all abilities damage scale off weapon damage and total resources. My reasoning is this.

1) You wouldn't be punished for taking a good combination of stamina and magika based abilities.
2) You won't be punished for they type of armor you wear.
3) You won't be gimped by the weapon you choose.
4) It would encourage a more diversified gear set. More 5/2 splits
5) Enchants would actually make a difference and balancing would become important again versus just stacking one resource past overcharge.
6) Different more diverse builds would arise due to less resource restraints.

Abilities would still cost either Magicka or stamina, but the damage would scale off your weapon damage and total resource pool. This is such a simple fix and would open up so many unique builds its unreal. All you would have to do is change the damage equation for each ability to tally the total resources for damage versus just the one that is associated towards its usage. Since you are now using 2 pools the equation would jump from 19resource=1damage to 40resource=1damage. Then everything that follows would remain the same IE weapon power, enchant damage, Crit, Critpower. I believe this would balance things because instead of stacking one resource beyond overcharge it would be more beneficial to start stacking the alternate resource. This also means you can balance your ability bars with a mix of Magicka and stamina abilities without one resource pool hitting like a wet noodle. These changes would foster new class builds and the players would no longer be hindered by their armor selection and weapon choices. I am not removing the resource pools and you would be wise to stack one before the other based on your character class/playstyle. I am just proposing a change in the way they are calculating the damage from those resources. The biggest chunk of damage would come from your weapon power. Like I said I think spell power is redundant since everyone uses a weapon and it could be converted to a fun stat like crit power. Also with the ability to to do more damage with this equation I would soft cap crit at 45%. I just don't think 80%+ crit is normal regardless of class.

My goal is just to make your resources, abilities, armor, and weapons more of a playstyle choice versus having them dictate your build. Its a simple concept that is just a little difficult to explain. I can answer any questions you may have.

Booba

istateres wrote: »

I think you're all missing the point, and the best option. Yes, all Class skills shouldn't use just Magicka; but let the PLAYER choose. As part of character creation, you should be able to select Magicka or Stamina to "fuel" your Class skills. Mages will likley WANT Magicka, but DBs may not. Don't have the developer change the way things work, let the players change IF they WANT.

Just my 2g.

Interesting. I'd add to that.
What if one morph of a skill uses magicka and the other one uses stamina?