Seems like suits/upper management have control of everything in this game.

brandon.coker101_ESO

I might be all wrong here...I'm just posting what it seems like to me.

I'm sure it's like this with every game to some degree but from the beginning it seems like the suits at Zenimax are crazy controlling or something. Like the devs can't say or do anything without approval from upper management.

I'm not why it seems like this any more than other games and I can't put my finger on it exactly but I do get this vibe....you guys see it too or is it just me?

AlexDougherty

Management controls the development and implementation of most games, so no.

The management usually listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who know what the game is roughly capable of. But they managers always have to approve what happens, and it usually has multiple layers. After all every MMO is a multi-million dollar business, they are not going to let anybody without sufficient standing in the company change anything, and responsibility shared is safer.

brandon.coker101_ESO

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Management controls the development and implementation of most games, so no.

The management usually listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who know what the game is roughly capable of. But they managers always have to approve what happens, and it usually has multiple layers. After all every MMO is a multi-million dollar business, they are not going to let anybody without sufficient standing in the company change anything, and responsibility shared is safer.

I know but it shows in ESO for some reason...you can see it more I guess.

I don't know, maybe it's just me...

Tremulous

Fight the Power!

Evergnar

brandon.coker101_ESO wrote: »

I might be all wrong here...I'm just posting what it seems like to me.

I'm sure it's like this with every game to some degree but from the beginning it seems like the suits at Zenimax are crazy controlling or something. Like the devs can't say or do anything without approval from upper management.

I'm not why it seems like this any more than other games and I can't put my finger on it exactly but I do get this vibe....you guys see it too or is it just me?

That would explain the light armor dresses and canes.

Phantax

Just a couple os light adjustments to your comment...

AlexDougherty wrote: »

The management sometimes listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who should know what the game is roughly capable of.... usually

Zorrashi

Money is what makes the world go round....
But to ease your worry, they have to at least listen to whatever advice the devs give. After all, the big suits are not exactly experts on MMO development and management.

Zebug

suits and management in charge of things in their own company??? this is an outrage...oh wait, it's like that in EVERY company that tries to make money.

Attorneyatlawl

brandon.coker101_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Management controls the development and implementation of most games, so no.

The management usually listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who know what the game is roughly capable of. But they managers always have to approve what happens, and it usually has multiple layers. After all every MMO is a multi-million dollar business, they are not going to let anybody without sufficient standing in the company change anything, and responsibility shared is safer.

I know but it shows in ESO for some reason...you can see it more I guess.

I don't know, maybe it's just me...

It definitely shows more in this game; it's not just you.

Nazon_Katts

Corporatism and officialism result in overregulation. The bigger the company, the more apparent it gets. It's kinda funny that those who scream for freedom (in trade) the most are essentially totalitarian in nature themselves. But to be fair, to keep so many people in line and on the same course, strict rules and the enforcement of those are necessary.

This does however raise the question, if it really is that benefiting when companies grow that big to begin with. Especially in the entertainment business it's pretty obvious that overregulation is detrimental to the quality of the product and not in the best interest of the customer.

But it does balance out to some extent, as it gives room to independent folks to deliver us more personal and artful experiences. Until capital snatches the most successful up and the circle begins anew.

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO

What they need is more business informaticians.
We know how to lead a business but also what work is required to programm software.
Suits who had to code. Mostly geeks playing games or doing all kind of IT stuff but who like to be in the business

Thats why all the companies are looking for us like crazy atm.

Arsenic_Touch

Phantax wrote: »

Just a couple os light adjustments to your comment...

AlexDougherty wrote: »

The management sometimes listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who should know what the game is roughly capable of.... usually

Nothing more depressing than developers that know less than players about their own game. That's how it was with Defiance. Their own lead developer was in the dark about the game so often that it made you wonder who was actually working on the game.

Fleymark

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

brandon.coker101_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Management controls the development and implementation of most games, so no.

The management usually listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who know what the game is roughly capable of. But they managers always have to approve what happens, and it usually has multiple layers. After all every MMO is a multi-million dollar business, they are not going to let anybody without sufficient standing in the company change anything, and responsibility shared is safer.

I know but it shows in ESO for some reason...you can see it more I guess.

I don't know, maybe it's just me...

It definitely shows more in this game; it's not just you.

Yes, yes, it does.

And I'm really sick of hearing about their latest appearance at Marketing Event of the Month Con where they will discuss what new is coming while the game continues to be grossly unbalanced, as it was when it released, a quarter of a year later.

There should be NO higher priority than fixing the broad sweeping balance issues in this game. There is no excuse for it at this point.

Vuron

Fleymark wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

brandon.coker101_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Management controls the development and implementation of most games, so no.

The management usually listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who know what the game is roughly capable of. But they managers always have to approve what happens, and it usually has multiple layers. After all every MMO is a multi-million dollar business, they are not going to let anybody without sufficient standing in the company change anything, and responsibility shared is safer.

I know but it shows in ESO for some reason...you can see it more I guess.

I don't know, maybe it's just me...

It definitely shows more in this game; it's not just you.

Yes, yes, it does.

And I'm really sick of hearing about their latest appearance at Marketing Event of the Month Con where they will discuss what new is coming while the game continues to be grossly unbalanced, as it was when it released, a quarter of a year later.

There should be NO higher priority than fixing the broad sweeping balance issues in this game. There is no excuse for it at this point.

It's called Quake Con....

Iminent

I agree OP. IMO this game really seems to have a tunnel vision effect going on that is unshakable. I get an overwhelming "vibe" from them that its an "Our way or the highway " mentality.

The saddest part at least for me is that we have all seen this mentality bring otherwise amazing games down time and time and time again.

That being said. It has to be awful hard trying to please everyone. Business management isn't my background. So perhaps the "stick to your guns" mentality is the right way to go. Just a shame we cannot seem to find a happy medium.

But wait... there was this one game that managed to make 12 million people happy. Wonder how they did that.

Vuron

Iminent wrote: »

I agree OP. IMO this game really seems to have a tunnel vision effect going on that is unshakable. I get an overwhelming "vibe" from them that its an "Our way or the highway " mentality.

It used to be this way, but seemed to have changed about a month before launch. Suddenly, you had major changes being implemented that seemed to have come from a very vocal minority.

The entire beginning of the game was changed a month before launch because a popular reviewer and his followers said the game wasn't "elder scrollsery" enough after playing for a few hours. So, the beginner islands were scrapped and everyone started on the main island. Somehow, these starter areas had been acceptable for a year of testing with 10's and 100's of thousands of testers.

Collision Detection was suddenly added a month before launch after a few people spammed multiple message boards stating that all games fail without collision detection. This entire premise was based on "thoughts" by people that had never seen nor tested the game in its current form, but "knew" that CD was needed.

Unfortunately, the list of examples could go on and on....

But wait... there was this one game that managed to make 12 million people happy. Wonder how they did that.

Let's compare Blizzard and ZOS for a second...

Shortly before launch, the Warcraft players were outraged that WoW was nothing like the single player game. WoW was going to destroy the Warcraft franchise. WoW was going to be a complete failure unless the devs put most of the mechanics from the single player game in place.

Sound familiar? Seems very similar to what we're seeing now.

Do you know what Blizzard did? They ignore all the cries and complaints from the Warcraft players and created the MMO that they wanted. It just happened to become the most successful western MMO in history and it's subs far surpassed the sales of its single player games.

History lesson, ZOS.

Sihnfahl

AlexDougherty wrote: »

After all every MMO is a multi-million dollar business, they are not going to let anybody without sufficient standing in the company change anything, and responsibility shared is safer.

It also has significant outlays; they have to recoup the development costs, the costs of spinning up server farms, the hiring process, etc...

SFBryan18

Sounds like another crazy assumption without any knowledge of their actual rank structure or names of actual people who work there. Should we all make threads based on our imagination in attempts to provoke some hatred?

liquid_wolf

brandon.coker101_ESO wrote: »

I know but it shows in ESO for some reason...you can see it more I guess.

I don't know, maybe it's just me...

How?

I'm not saying they don't have control over the game... I just don't understand HOW "you can see it more".

So if I open up Wildstar, Final Fantasy XIV, or World of Warcraft... how do I tell that "suits/upper management have control of everything in this game" vs Elder Scrolls Online.

Because... logically... in order to be able to tell that is happening, I'd usually have to go by the office, or somehow see interactions between the developers and management to get that understanding.

How do you tell this?

Auric_ESO

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Sounds like another crazy assumption without any knowledge of their actual rank structure or names of actual people who work their. Should we all make threads based on our imagination in attempts to provoke some hatred?

It seems to me that alot of threads are exactly like the above poster says.

liquid_wolf

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Sounds like another crazy assumption without any knowledge of their actual rank structure or names of actual people who work their. Should we all make threads based on our imagination in attempts to provoke some hatred?

Fears.
"I'm worried the developers have no input."
"I didn't like this latest update... it must be the developers are forced to do this."
"Look at the PR and Management at this latest conference... it is all their fault."

You have a fear... and then you encourage it with wild assumptions and more feelings.

You post these feelings on the board, and someone who might have a similar feeling comes along and agrees with you... more feelings piled on top of feelings.

No facts... no information... no thought.

Just fear run rampant.

Fleymark

Sihnfahl wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

After all every MMO is a multi-million dollar business, they are not going to let anybody without sufficient standing in the company change anything, and responsibility shared is safer.

It also has significant outlays; they have to recoup the development costs, the costs of spinning up server farms, the hiring process, etc...

This may be, but I'm sick and tired of the entertainment software industry constantly and consistently releasing games that are broken and incomplete from the onset.

Other industries have high development and operating costs and highly speculative markets, yet they don't get away with what we, for some reason, allow the entertainment software industry to get away with. With those industries we use words like "defective" and "fraud" and file FTC complaints and class action lawsuits.

But for some reason, with this one, we make excuses and complain on message boards.

Been gaming for 35+ years, an MMO player for the last 15 and, trust me, it's getting worse not better. In that time the industry has gone from complete obscurity to the mainstream, surpassing all other forms of entertainment in sales, yet it just gets worse.

It's inexcusable.

Fleymark

Vuron wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

brandon.coker101_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Management controls the development and implementation of most games, so no.

The management usually listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who know what the game is roughly capable of. But they managers always have to approve what happens, and it usually has multiple layers. After all every MMO is a multi-million dollar business, they are not going to let anybody without sufficient standing in the company change anything, and responsibility shared is safer.

I know but it shows in ESO for some reason...you can see it more I guess.

I don't know, maybe it's just me...

It definitely shows more in this game; it's not just you.

Yes, yes, it does.

And I'm really sick of hearing about their latest appearance at Marketing Event of the Month Con where they will discuss what new is coming while the game continues to be grossly unbalanced, as it was when it released, a quarter of a year later.

There should be NO higher priority than fixing the broad sweeping balance issues in this game. There is no excuse for it at this point.

It's called Quake Con....

Same thing different day.

shiva7663

Marketing is definitely more influential than Quality Assurance. The "get it out now, we'll fix the bugs later" mindset is extraordinarily toxic.

AlexDougherty

Phantax wrote: »

Just a couple os light adjustments to your comment...

AlexDougherty wrote: »

The management sometimes listens to what developers say, since they are the ones who should know what the game is roughly capable of.... usually

Lol XD

My original point still stands though.

steveb16_ESO46

brandon.coker101_ESO wrote: »

I might be all wrong here...I'm just posting what it seems like to me.

I'm sure it's like this with every game to some degree but from the beginning it seems like the suits at Zenimax are crazy controlling or something. Like the devs can't say or do anything without approval from upper management.

I'm not why it seems like this any more than other games and I can't put my finger on it exactly but I do get this vibe....you guys see it too or is it just me?

That's how every business in the world works. Investors want their investment to pay off . When they think they aren't getting an appropriate ROI they will tell the hired hands to do something about it.

steveb16_ESO46

Fleymark wrote: »

Other industries have high development and operating costs and highly speculative markets, yet they don't get away with what we, for some reason, allow the entertainment software industry to get away with. With those industries we use words like "defective" and "fraud" and file FTC complaints and class action lawsuits.

But for some reason, with this one, we make excuses and complain on message boards.

Been gaming for 35+ years, an MMO player for the last 15 and, trust me, it's getting worse not better. In that time the industry has gone from complete obscurity to the mainstream, surpassing all other forms of entertainment in sales, yet it just gets worse.

It's inexcusable.

Agreed and it certainly seems to be getting worse. All we can do is vote with our wallets. When I stopped my sub renewing the shocking state of the game on release and the poor quality control of updates was one of the things I mentioned.

TehMagnus

brandon.coker101_ESO wrote: »

I might be all wrong here...I'm just posting what it seems like to me.

I'm sure it's like this with every game to some degree but from the beginning it seems like the suits at Zenimax are crazy controlling or something. Like the devs can't say or do anything without approval from upper management.

I'm not why it seems like this any more than other games and I can't put my finger on it exactly but I do get this vibe....you guys see it too or is it just me?

Erm you're describing any IT project here mate

Lodestar

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Sounds like another crazy assumption without any knowledge of their actual rank structure or names of actual people who work there. Should we all make threads based on our imagination in attempts to provoke some hatred?

In fairness he said he got that feeling, and was asking if others did. And implied he wanted to know why. That is not actually an accusation. After all it is nothing specific.

No different from saying "is it just me, but is it seeming colder today than the weather forecast is"?

TehMagnus

Most IT projects (like construction projects) are managed as follow (I'm simplifying and of course there are exceptions and small diferences but globaly it's like this):

Project Owner (business, not necesarely ZOS management but still one or several dedicated business teams):
- They say what they want(MMO ESO Game | improvements | foccus on functionalities or fixes).
- How they want it (Platform| contents of patches etc),
- When they want it (deadlines, weekly patches etc)
- How much money they will give to get it (budget).
- May have a team of testers (really depends on the project).

Project Manager:
- Picks a crew or several crews.
- Manages the crews.
- Advises the Business & the Project Owner.
- Tells business what is doable and what isn't doable.
- Tells business how much things will cost (budget & hours of work).
- Has to answer to Business, not the other way around.
- Takes care of Unitary testing.
- Many more things.

So to answer your question: Development team allways has to answer to Business team. One of main difference between projects is the relation between Dev & Business team and how much the business trusts and listens the Dev.
In the end it all comes down to money, how much people you have to do the job and hoping that the person that makes the decisions makes the correct ones.

seneferab16_ESO

I agree with OP. The game has a pretty solid and consistent foundation, but we've had quite a few inconsistent twists and turns that started a few weeks before launch that makes me think that some people high up in the hierarchy who doesn't know much about MMOs (or even games in general) have taken a more active role in the decision making.

This happens in every AAA title, but it's more obvious here because of the often bad, and sometimes REALLY weird decisions. What was done to the Starter Islands being one of them... that couldn't possibly have been a dev who decided that.