Had Zenimax stuck to what they said in their first video, I think it would have been a huge success

Guppet

In the video below, it says that at level 50 you raid, you have adventure zones to play in solo or in groups. It basically confirms that Veteran content was never meant to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxJTsq2XeKY&feature=player_detailpage

I think they would have had none of this negativity and would have had a hugely successful game if only they had stuck to what they said they would do. Since this was clearly their vision, pulling VR should be an option. they just need to have the balls to do it.

Does anybody know exactly when they changed their vision to include VR levels?

Vuron

This pretty much goes for everything. Things started to go downhill when they began listening to the TES players and started making changes.

VR was put into the game because the TES players complained that they would be locked out of 2/3 of the game zones and didn't want to create alts.

Add this to the long list of unnecessary changes, the latest of which is the addition of worthless junk added to containers because "Skyrim had it".

Huckdabuck

At this point....does it really matter?

david271749

I think it was when AOE grinders/power levelers/self proclaimed mmo vets started complaining about not having enough to do after rushing though the content, thus ruining the game for everyone who actually played it as it was intended to be played.

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO

There wouldnt have been any problems without two things:

1. Difference beetween VR1 and VR12 gear, even if its 1%
2. People always want to be highest level, even if its only 1% better.

Without this, people would see VR content as endgame content and not leveling content.
VR dungeons as endgame dungeons. PvP at VR1 as endgame PvP.

One little change for the mechanics, much work for designers:
VR1-12 gear all has the same stats. Only thing that changes are more epic skins with higher VR and maybe some sets only drop at certain VR levels (still have same stats as VR1)

Vuron

david271749 wrote: »

I think it was when AOE grinders/power levelers/self proclaimed mmo vets started complaining about not having enough to do after rushing though the content, thus ruining the game for everyone who actually played it as it was intended to be played.

You could think that, but you'd be wrong. My first post wasn't an opinion. VR content was added to the game because of the TES players. The same as the "feature" of picking up worthless junk that serves no other purpose than to clog up inventory.

ItsRejectz

He says " It's really important to us that PvP isnt just a VETERAN game"
Say's it all, veteran was always intended

/topic

Guppet

ItsRejectz wrote: »

He says " It's really important to us that PvP isnt just a VETERAN game"
Say's it all, veteran was always intended

/topic

Good catch. Still doesn't say they invisioned Vet to be what we have now, could even have just been a term to describe max level players.

They do clearly state that at level 50 (a level that would have come after 49, if not for vet levels), you can raid and go to adventure zones solo or in groups.

So in that case they are at best inconsistent in their own vid.

Evergnar

Vuron wrote: »

This pretty much goes for everything. Things started to go downhill when they began listening to the TES players and started making changes.

VR was put into the game because the TES players complained that they would be locked out of 2/3 of the game zones and didn't want to create alts.

Add this to the long list of unnecessary changes, the latest of which is the addition of worthless junk added to containers because "Skyrim had it".

I see it a little differently. Their approach has always been to appeal to everybody. That's the problem. They had no clear vision on how it would all work together. So they just kept implementing bits and pieces of each play style.

It wasn't just TES players back in beta complaining about being locked out of the other zones. It was also an overwhelming majority saying 1-50 was not enough content. So Zos takes the easy road, thinking they are appealing to everybody, but again without any clear vision as to how it would work.

Nobody literally asked for worthless junk. Players (whether TES fans or not) asked for more interactables and weapons/armor you could pick up in the world. Little did they know what Zos had in mind. Had Zos shared their plan ahead of time I don't think anyone would have voted for it.

NetViperX

ItsRejectz wrote: »

He says " It's really important to us that PvP isnt just a VETERAN game"
Say's it all, veteran was always intended

/topic

All that means is that PvP was intended for all levels, not just people who had maxed their characters level. I don't think it was meant to imply Vet Lvls at all.

Vuron

Evergnar wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

This pretty much goes for everything. Things started to go downhill when they began listening to the TES players and started making changes.

VR was put into the game because the TES players complained that they would be locked out of 2/3 of the game zones and didn't want to create alts.

Add this to the long list of unnecessary changes, the latest of which is the addition of worthless junk added to containers because "Skyrim had it".

I see it a little differently. Their approach has always been to appeal to everybody. That's the problem. They had no clear vision on how it would all work together. So they just kept implementing bits and pieces of each play style.

It wasn't just TES players back in beta complaining about being locked out of the other zones. It was also an overwhelming majority saying 1-50 was not enough content. So Zos takes the easy road, thinking they are appealing to everybody, but again without any clear vision as to how it would work.

Nobody literally asked for worthless junk. Players (whether TES fans or not) asked for more interactables and weapons/armor you could pick up in the world. Little did they know what Zos had in mind. Had Zos shared their plan ahead of time I don't think anyone would have voted for it.

I didn't mean to single out the TES players (or maybe I did) because you are correct and they have always seemed to implement changes on a whim. We got VR zones, collision detection, the removal of starter islands, completely wiping out the UI, any race/any faction, and on and on. Most of these changes were driven by a vocal minority, whether it came from message boards, a handful of reviewers, a negative article, etc. We've had changes requested from TES players, MMO players, PvP players, hardcore, casual, etc.

I wrote up a long post as to why they shouldn't have listed to anyone and may eventually edit and post it.

Phantax

Damn, I remember the first time I watched this. I was so full of anticipation, so full of excitement. Hmm, the shine soon faded from that dream !



"You can use any weapon or armour type you actually want to use" ???
Who are they kidding...lol

"Elder Scrolls characters are designed so you can have hundreds of them online at any one time"
100+ players.. where? Maybe/once in Cyrodiil, before the FPS dropout !

Such hope yet such despair !

WraithAzraiel

They also said you'd be able to group and play with players from other factions

ArconSeptim

I bet you would get 30 fps more back then when they recorded this video than today.

SirAndy

Vuron wrote: »

This pretty much goes for everything. Things started to go downhill when they began listening to the TES players and started making changes.

ZOS made the mistake to listen to a small but vocal minority that was asking for changes all through the beta. That's why you now have useless and easily missed starter islands and the VR grind fiasco.

Funny thing is, some of the most vocal guys that were asking for those changes during beta and early PTS don't even play the game anymore.

discosoc

Removing VR from the game would go a long way to building good-will I think. It seems like the only people who enjoy it are those who were able to grind to max before it got harder, or those who happen to play one of the few class/specs that can solo the stuff.

Granted, I'm nowhere near VR levels myself, so I only have the experiences my friends talk about when we do Pathfinder on Saturdays. Maybe VR really isn't so bad?

Evergnar

Phantax wrote: »

Damn, I remember the first time I watched this. I was so full of anticipation, so full of excitement. Hmm, the shine soon faded from that dream !



"You can use any weapon or armour type you actually want to use" ???
Who are they kidding...lol

"Elder Scrolls characters are designed so you can have hundreds of them online at any one time"
100+ players.. where? Maybe/once in Cyrodiil, before the FPS dropout !

Such hope yet such despair !

I have very fond memories of beta & pre release. I still have hope though (no logical reason, just a class half full guy).

Guppet

discosoc wrote: »

Removing VR from the game would go a long way to building good-will I think. It seems like the only people who enjoy it are those who were able to grind to max before it got harder, or those who happen to play one of the few class/specs that can solo the stuff.

Granted, I'm nowhere near VR levels myself, so I only have the experiences my friends talk about when we do Pathfinder on Saturdays. Maybe VR really isn't so bad?

I'm actually taking my second NB through VR content right now, I'm enjoying it too, as I like the story and play style.

I'd loose many many days of played time if they removed VR levels, but I would accept it, as it would make the game more enjoyable for a vast amount of players. It may even bring back my guildies, who all quit due to it.

Evergnar

Vuron wrote: »

Evergnar wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

This pretty much goes for everything. Things started to go downhill when they began listening to the TES players and started making changes.

VR was put into the game because the TES players complained that they would be locked out of 2/3 of the game zones and didn't want to create alts.

Add this to the long list of unnecessary changes, the latest of which is the addition of worthless junk added to containers because "Skyrim had it".

I see it a little differently. Their approach has always been to appeal to everybody. That's the problem. They had no clear vision on how it would all work together. So they just kept implementing bits and pieces of each play style.

It wasn't just TES players back in beta complaining about being locked out of the other zones. It was also an overwhelming majority saying 1-50 was not enough content. So Zos takes the easy road, thinking they are appealing to everybody, but again without any clear vision as to how it would work.

Nobody literally asked for worthless junk. Players (whether TES fans or not) asked for more interactables and weapons/armor you could pick up in the world. Little did they know what Zos had in mind. Had Zos shared their plan ahead of time I don't think anyone would have voted for it.

I didn't mean to single out the TES players (or maybe I did) because you are correct and they have always seemed to implement changes on a whim. We got VR zones, collision detection, the removal of starter islands, completely wiping out the UI, any race/any faction, and on and on. Most of these changes were driven by a vocal minority, whether it came from message boards, a handful of reviewers, a negative article, etc. We've had changes requested from TES players, MMO players, PvP players, hardcore, casual, etc.

I wrote up a long post as to why they shouldn't have listed to anyone and may eventually edit and post it.

I get what you're saying then and totally agree with you on...

Most of these changes were driven by a vocal minority

Food4Thought

SirAndy wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

This pretty much goes for everything. Things started to go downhill when they began listening to the TES players and started making changes.

ZOS made the mistake to listen to a small but vocal minority that was asking for changes all through the beta. That's why you now have useless and easily missed starter islands and the VR grind fiasco.

Funny thing is, some of the most vocal guys that were asking for those changes during beta and early PTS don't even play the game anymore.

That is the curse of the tester. You test the game for so long that by the time you reach release, you can't stand it any longer.

That happened to me for a game I alpha tested a few years ago called Fallen Earth. I tested that game for over a year. I was there when the memory leaks would crash your system in under a minute to the point when it was finally released.

Sadly, they had knee jerk last minute game changes too. In Fallen Earth's case they waited till about two weeks before release to give us players a chance to test mutations. It simply wasn't enough time and the game released with some combat styles being extremely over powered and some that were beyond useless. But by then I had had enough and couldn't take it any more. And did we testers give feedback to the Dev's? Oh yeah, we gave loads and most of it was stuff they didn't want to hear (like how their 6 player faction simply didn't work in game but looked great on paper).

But I digress ....

I hear what you guys are saying. And as for the junk weapons and armor you find in the world ... I would be for it if it deconsturct them for resources. As they are now, you get a couple of hundred inspiration from them and that is it. The good news is they stack so you can come out a head. But rarely do you come across multiples of the same junk item in game.

Gilvoth

in the video we see something that makes you feel as tho every one is on almost equal footing and strength and like they said even a level 10 character would have as much fun as a high level veteren, but that just is not true

the dragonight class and sorcerer class is heavily overpowered compared to the nightblade and templar class. the nightblade and templars simply cannot compete with the damage out-put of the dragonight and sorcerer and that also the nightblade skills most of the time dont work.

another thing i see in the video, we see those seige weapons shooting from FAR greater distance then what they are realy able to be used. right now you need to be ALOT closer to the castle to hit it then what is shown in the video.

the video is a promotional video meant to stir up interest and it worked as intended, but, we now know the truth and makes the video a bit misleading in terms of the reality we see when we play the game.

elderscrolls online is infact a great game and i even would call it the best mmo available. great graphics and great stuff inside the game, but there is alot needed like the dark brotherhood and thieves guild and as allways "increase the damage out-put of the nightblades and make thier damage consistant and equal to the damage out-put and survivability of the dragonights.

right now the nightblade does not have a knock down skill like the sorcerer and dragonights have. they can knock people down and kill them within a few seconds but the nightblade cannot do that and niether do we have access to skills that can do that.

Food4Thought

The problem this game had during testing?

The vast majority of their testers were stuck with weekend testing on new characters each time. Most of us never really got a chance to kick the tires on the game so to speak. What we did end up with was multiple attempts to take on starter level content on what we were told were older images of the game. So even when we saw broken quests or other problems in game we had to assume that these things were touched on and corrected. It wasn't until release that we came to realize that those same quests in beta that were broken were still broken in the final version.

And then of course, we also had unbelieveably short term access to the tester forums. Most of the access to the forums ended almost the same time access to the test weekend ended. In other words, we bulk beta testers never got a chance to compare notes and see what others had experienced.

It was like we were only there to test their hardware side of the house (which failed more than pasted) and not the software side which needed more testing too.

The sad reality of the story is this game developer failed on two fronts. They failed to adequately test the core of the game with mass testing and they failed to give fresh eyes a chance to see the game instead of the same group of extended testers who quite frankly probably stopped looking at the "details".

williamburr2001b14_ESO

Evergnar wrote: »

Nobody literally asked for worthless junk. Players (whether TES fans or not) asked for more interactables and weapons/armor you could pick up in the world. Little did they know what Zos had in mind. Had Zos shared their plan ahead of time I don't think anyone would have voted for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kB67bTCz6M

Huckdabuck

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

in the video we see something that makes you feel as tho every one is on almost equal footing and strength and like they said even a level 10 character would have as much fun as a high level veteren, but that just is not true

the dragonight class and sorcerer class is heavily overpowered compared to the nightblade and templar class. the nightblade and templars simply cannot compete with the damage out-put of the dragonight and sorcerer and that also the nightblade skills most of the time dont work.

another thing i see in the video, we see those seige weapons shooting from FAR greater distance then what they are realy able to be used. right now you need to be ALOT closer to the castle to hit it then what is shown in the video.

the video is a promotional video meant to stir up interest and it worked as intended, but, we now know the truth and makes the video a bit misleading in terms of the reality we see when we play the game.

elderscrolls online is infact a great game and i even would call it the best mmo available. great graphics and great stuff inside the game, but there is alot needed like the dark brotherhood and thieves guild and as allways "increase the damage out-put of the nightblades and make thier damage consistant and equal to the damage out-put and survivability of the dragonights.

right now the nightblade does not have a knock down skill like the sorcerer and dragonights have. they can knock people down and kill them within a few seconds but the nightblade cannot do that and niether do we have access to skills that can do that.

Take this garbage back to the NB threads.

Gilvoth

Food4Thought wrote: »

The problem this game had during testing?

The vast majority of their testers were stuck with weekend testing on new characters each time. Most of us never really got a chance to kick the tires on the game so to speak. What we did end up with was multiple attempts to take on starter level content on what we were told were older images of the game. So even when we saw broken quests or other problems in game we had to assume that these things were touched on and corrected. It wasn't until release that we came to realize that those same quests in beta that were broken were still broken in the final version.

And then of course, we also had unbelieveably short term access to the tester forums. Most of the access to the forums ended almost the same time access to the test weekend ended. In other words, we bulk beta testers never got a chance to compare notes and see what others had experienced.

It was like we were only there to test their hardware side of the house (which failed more than pasted) and not the software side which needed more testing too.

The sad reality of the story is this game developer failed on two fronts. They failed to adequately test the core of the game with mass testing and they failed to give fresh eyes a chance to see the game instead of the same group of extended testers who quite frankly probably stopped looking at the "details".

you are very correct and insightfull, and yes that is exactly what did happen.

kitsinni

david271749 wrote: »

I think it was when AOE grinders/power levelers/self proclaimed mmo vets started complaining about not having enough to do after rushing though the content, thus ruining the game for everyone who actually played it as it was intended to be played.

VR levels were in place before any of that so how could that have been the reason?

yodased

Food4Thought wrote: »

The problem this game had during testing?

The vast majority of their testers were stuck with weekend testing on new characters each time. Most of us never really got a chance to kick the tires on the game so to speak. What we did end up with was multiple attempts to take on starter level content on what we were told were older images of the game. So even when we saw broken quests or other problems in game we had to assume that these things were touched on and corrected. It wasn't until release that we came to realize that those same quests in beta that were broken were still broken in the final version.

And then of course, we also had unbelieveably short term access to the tester forums. Most of the access to the forums ended almost the same time access to the test weekend ended. In other words, we bulk beta testers never got a chance to compare notes and see what others had experienced.

It was like we were only there to test their hardware side of the house (which failed more than pasted) and not the software side which needed more testing too.

The sad reality of the story is this game developer failed on two fronts. They failed to adequately test the core of the game with mass testing and they failed to give fresh eyes a chance to see the game instead of the same group of extended testers who quite frankly probably stopped looking at the "details".

This and to even more of an extent all of us, long term PTS and weekend/week long testers were bound by a NDA that they actually enforced. So even if you did make friends with people in the beta, you couldn't even talk to them outside the forums or risk breaking NDA and not being able to test again.

That and basically what the quoted post says, mass majority of "beta testing" were simple stress tests to make sure the server could handle capacity, not testing problems. I can say that with confidence because really NONE of the major problems in PTS or weekend beta were fixed until weeks after launch.

andreas.rudroffb16_ESO

Zenimax also told us that ESO will be bugfree due to extensive Beta testing

Ojustaboo

I remember one of my comments on the beta forums early this year along the lines of,

_____________________________________

I just did the mages and fighters guild quests and all I can say is wow (as in the word not the game), finally some content that isnt a faceroll, content you have to think about, but content that is challenging. Those two bosses guarantee I will pre order.

______________________________________

Doshia was a superb fight once you understood how the orbs worked.

To quote a guildmate from guild chat last week

_______________________________________

She died in 3 hits before she even turned into a harvester, I had my ultimate prepared, pots ready to go, bah nothing, this used to be such an awesome fight

________________________________________

Guppet

andreas.rudroffb16_ESO wrote: »

Zenimax also told us that ESO will be bugfree due to extensive Beta testing

Yeah but no one that has ever played an MMO bought into that. If they did I have some magic beans to sell them.

discosoc

SirAndy wrote: »

Vuron wrote: »

This pretty much goes for everything. Things started to go downhill when they began listening to the TES players and started making changes.

ZOS made the mistake to listen to a small but vocal minority that was asking for changes all through the beta. That's why you now have useless and easily missed starter islands and the VR grind fiasco.

Funny thing is, some of the most vocal guys that were asking for those changes during beta and early PTS don't even play the game anymore.

Food4Thought wrote: »

The problem this game had during testing?

The vast majority of their testers were stuck with weekend testing on new characters each time. Most of us never really got a chance to kick the tires on the game so to speak. What we did end up with was multiple attempts to take on starter level content on what we were told were older images of the game. So even when we saw broken quests or other problems in game we had to assume that these things were touched on and corrected. It wasn't until release that we came to realize that those same quests in beta that were broken were still broken in the final version.

And then of course, we also had unbelieveably short term access to the tester forums. Most of the access to the forums ended almost the same time access to the test weekend ended. In other words, we bulk beta testers never got a chance to compare notes and see what others had experienced.

It was like we were only there to test their hardware side of the house (which failed more than pasted) and not the software side which needed more testing too.

The sad reality of the story is this game developer failed on two fronts. They failed to adequately test the core of the game with mass testing and they failed to give fresh eyes a chance to see the game instead of the same group of extended testers who quite frankly probably stopped looking at the "details".

Great post and spot on. I remember the first time they wanted people to test Cyrodiil, the only people who managed to make it to level 10 and PVP that weekend were the ones that seemed to be playing non-stop. Even worse was the fact that the beta has some login issues for the first evening, and issues with people getting stuck and then killed while exiting Coldharbour.

I wasn't even able to play until Saturday, which left me something like 24 hours to get to level 10. Doable, but I ended up choosing to not even try and instead went camping that night.

The claim that we were beta testing outdated builds also made no sense to me. Even if that were true, it meant you had people submitting bug reports and stuff for things that were very possibly fixed already. Nice way to waste a tester's time.