Hello ZOS - Can I have some realism please!

kijima

This was brought up as a side point in another thread but I think it needs it's own thread, here goes.

Basic animals like mud crabs, wolves, skeevers and the like should all be VR1 in ALL VR zones

I'm talking about creatures that have no right to be i.e. VR6. Think about it!

Think of it realistically, here you are adventuring in the realm after you've defeated Molag Bal, yeah, that's right! A mere mortal who put an end to the God of Schemes... A God, you killed a God!

Picture this, you are riding your war horse, a horse that has seen as much battle as you, a horse that may snorts fire a brimstone out it's nostril's it's so tough! And as you ride in your purple and yellow Armour, Armour that you've either made, bought or earned by taken it from a Lich King after you have bested him. Armour that is Legendary, you know the gear I mean, so fancy is your Armour that when you walk through a town people stop and stare at it, comment on it! they want to be you! Same goes for weapons. You might have a sword for instance that was forged in the fires of <insert whatever deathly forge you want by some super skilled weaponsmith> or a bow that you got after defeating some supernatural force. In any case, good gear. You get the point.

Your Weapons and Armour are about as good as they get, plus your enchantments and all your skillsets. Skills that have taken a long time to to learn, and in learning them you've become a master of blade or bow etc YET, a friggin oversize VR6 rat in a group of three takes you on, knocks you off your horse and kills you!

Really ZOS... Really?

So why didn't Caldwell tell me about the powerful Skeevers that plague the land. I mean really, screw the God of Schemes when you have 'Mickey and Friends' that are the real threat!

Now I understand that these are vet zones, and I'm all for having some serious difficulty. I'm an NB so I'm use to doing it tough, I don't jump into a group of three NPC's at the same level as me to try and cut them down, which by the way to me IS realistic.

In real life I wouldn't pick a fight on the street with three tough guys ( I wouldn't pick a fight with anyone IRL to be honest ) as I'd get my arse kicked. But if I 'had' to take out three guys on the street if my life depended on it, I'd be more inclined to try and distract one, take out another as quickly as I could and then fight the one that looks like he will give you the most trouble, at least that would give me the best chance of surviving, and this is what I do in ESO. It works well this way with multiples characters.

A farmer at a resource armed with a pitchfork has no business in Cyrodiil being ranked as VR5, the guards do for sure, but a farmer?

How is that realistic? Lets say you are a VR3 <insert race and class here> and you go up against a farmer armed with a pitchfork while trying to take a rescource. You are low on health after dispatching a Guard, and then a farmer kills you...with a pitchfork! You, the defeater of Molag Bal and with Armour and Weapons galore! Yet there is this farmer, unskilled wearing some smelly old linen shirt and trousers made from an old sack standing over your dead body armed with a rusty pitchfork!

Really?

Now I know that is a Guard is harder to kill than a farmer, and I understand and fully support that, and to make things clear, I am not whinging, or want things to be made easier. I just want them realistic. My point is a farmer, a skeever or mudcrab etc should not be anything more than VR1 both in PvP and PvE veteran zones. It just doesn't make any real sense.

I'd rather you guys fix little things like this that steal immersion and take away realism then add fancy lighting effects when the game already looks great. Don't get me wrong, I like the new lighting effects but it wouldn't have effected my gameplay in any way, shape or form if you hadn't have changed them. I'd strongly suggest that it wouldn't have hampered anyone's game play with the lighting the way it was. It's not like thousands of people were about to leave if you didn't make the light through lead light windows more appealing.

Of course, none of this is important by comparison to the many bugs that exist, the exploiters and imbalances that exist currently. It's those things that need urgent attention, not lighting effects! And if you are going to work on realism, how about not retouching every blade of grass, but start but putting mudcrabs in vet zones back to VR1 and not the hulking superhero's they currently are.

Oh, and for anyone that bothered to read my above novel, thanks for taking the time. I too read long posts.

Junkogen

TL;DR

kijima

^ Too short to care.

DanteVFenris

Actually I just recently found the most realistic game ever. It's called "real life".


But in all seriousness. It's a game, if it were realistic it would be boring. I understand the mudcrab thing but the way they have the content you can understand. Your going through lower level zones just scaled. If everything was v1 some quests associated with those monsters would be too easy.

Micallef

LOL
People who mention "realism" and things like enchantments, which basically comes down to *magic*, in the same post crack me up. Thanks for the laughs! It always reminds me of this one guy who complained about how DAoC implemented magic wasn't realistic. What a hoot!

It's a fantasy game. You want realism, go play Medal of Honor.
High level mud crabs are tastier anyway, as far as I'm concerned.

DanteVFenris

Also if you played wow which is gone for 10 years eventually you run out of stronger things. Is the panda darkness monsters actually stronger then a apoctolyptic dragon? Probably not, but that's mmos. Too many monster eventually you run out of the biggest and baddest

Lonestryder

To the OP:

Excellent writing style.

On the topic of crabs and such, I agree. However, when thinking of the farmer, you, too came from such humble means, yes?

Welid

I love seeing players getting chased by mud crabs is the funniest thing in ESO.

Solution, don't attack them and they won't attack you. Accident isn't going to cut it with mud crabs. They take this things personally when they see family members being burnt, wouldn't you

Blackhorne

kijima wrote: »

This was brought up as a side point in another thread but I think it needs it's own thread, here goes.

Basic animals like mud crabs, wolves, skeevers and the like should all be VR1 in ALL VR zones

I'm talking about creatures that have no right to be i.e. VR6. Think about it!

Think of it realistically, here you are adventuring in the realm after you've defeated Molag Bal, yeah, that's right! A mere mortal who put an end to the God of Schemes... A God, you killed a God!

Picture this, you are riding your war horse, a horse that has seen as much battle as you, a horse that may snorts fire a brimstone out it's nostril's it's so tough! And as you ride in your purple and yellow Armour, Armour that you've either made, bought or earned by taken it from a Lich King after you have bested him. Armour that is Legendary, you know the gear I mean, so fancy is your Armour that when you walk through a town people stop and stare at it, comment on it! they want to be you! Same goes for weapons. You might have a sword for instance that was forged in the fires of <insert whatever deathly forge you want by some super skilled weaponsmith> or a bow that you got after defeating some supernatural force. In any case, good gear. You get the point.

Your Weapons and Armour are about as good as they get, plus your enchantments and all your skillsets. Skills that have taken a long time to to learn, and in learning them you've become a master of blade or bow etc YET, a friggin oversize VR6 rat in a group of three takes you on, knocks you off your horse and kills you!

Really ZOS... Really?

So why didn't Caldwell tell me about the powerful Skeevers that plague the land. I mean really, screw the God of Schemes when you have 'Mickey and Friends' that are the real threat!

Now I understand that these are vet zones, and I'm all for having some serious difficulty. I'm an NB so I'm use to doing it tough, I don't jump into a group of three NPC's at the same level as me to try and cut them down, which by the way to me IS realistic.

In real life I wouldn't pick a fight on the street with three tough guys ( I wouldn't pick a fight with anyone IRL to be honest ) as I'd get my arse kicked. But if I 'had' to take out three guys on the street if my life depended on it, I'd be more inclined to try and distract one, take out another as quickly as I could and then fight the one that looks like he will give you the most trouble, at least that would give me the best chance of surviving, and this is what I do in ESO. It works well this way with multiples characters.

A farmer at a resource armed with a pitchfork has no business in Cyrodiil being ranked as VR5, the guards do for sure, but a farmer?

How is that realistic? Lets say you are a VR3 <insert race and class here> and you go up against a farmer armed with a pitchfork while trying to take a rescource. You are low on health after dispatching a Guard, and then a farmer kills you...with a pitchfork! You, the defeater of Molag Bal and with Armour and Weapons galore! Yet there is this farmer, unskilled wearing some smelly old linen shirt and trousers made from an old sack standing over your dead body armed with a rusty pitchfork!

Really?

Now I know that is a Guard is harder to kill than a farmer, and I understand and fully support that, and to make things clear, I am not whinging, or want things to be made easier. I just want them realistic. My point is a farmer, a skeever or mudcrab etc should not be anything more than VR1 both in PvP and PvE veteran zones. It just doesn't make any real sense.

I'd rather you guys fix little things like this that steal immersion and take away realism then add fancy lighting effects when the game already looks great. Don't get me wrong, I like the new lighting effects but it wouldn't have effected my gameplay in any way, shape or form if you hadn't have changed them. I'd strongly suggest that it wouldn't have hampered anyone's game play with the lighting the way it was. It's not like thousands of people were about to leave if you didn't make the light through lead light windows more appealing.

Of course, none of this is important by comparison to the many bugs that exist, the exploiters and imbalances that exist currently. It's those things that need urgent attention, not lighting effects! And if you are going to work on realism, how about not retouching every blade of grass, but start but putting mudcrabs in vet zones back to VR1 and not the hulking superhero's they currently are.

Oh, and for anyone that bothered to read my above novel, thanks for taking the time. I too read long posts.

Okay, you want level-based realism?

Get ready to fight some lvl50 pirates in the starting zones.
Go up against VR-level daedra at the first dark anchor you find.
Get ready to get bored in the lvl50 zones as they're 80% under-leveled creatures.

In the real world, enemies don't segregate themselves by level for your ease or entertainment.

In video games, MMOs in particular, it's very common practice to keep all creatures in a zone within the level range of the players the zone was designed for.

The level (VR- or otherwise) isn't what differentiates a farmer or a mudcrab from a soldier, it's their training and skills. The level is there solely to scale the challenge to the player.

And if you're low on health and fighting soldiers, it's actually quite realistic for a farmer to realize that he's got a heavy sharp implement he might be able to use to help those guards who've been protecting his farm. History is full of individual and groups of "common folk" who've changed the tide of a battle or war.

Soloeus

HOLY CRAP BATMAN!!

TLDR.

1. Keeping creatures in zones around same power of player helps keep balance. If mudcrabs in V10 zone was a level 4 creature you would get the lowest level of Rawhide from it. Or it can be V10 and give the highest quality. Which do you prefer?

2. Suspension of Disbelief - is the common denominator here. You are in a world which features extradimensional planes, daedra and argonians. Just like when watching a movie and understanding the difference of Fantasy and Reality you need to suspend some disbelief.

3. How far does your realism argument go? ESO females don't have a special time of the month and a game system for that, with a Female Hygiene NPC. It also doesn't cripple your character forever with a missing hand when you get attacked by a bear and when you die you get to come back to life.

kijima

Some may not be getting the realism thing. When I log on, I take on that characteristics of that toon. I leave my troubles of world like Mortages, spouse and children dealings, all of the regular goings on of life. Yes, there is magic in my world, but not the definable type like casting a spell.

Yes, nirn is a magical world which is unrealistic to the 'real' world, but not in the world of my toon. Magic is just a part of everyday living, all creatures great and small are magic for the most part. Suspending belief is fine, and I agree if I were watching a movie, but I'm not am I. I'm taking on the role of a character I've made in a world that unlike a movie has actions and reactions. You don't chose the path of the hero in a movie, you just accompany the hero/antihero on the journey. In this game you are the one interacting, it's you or your avatar as it were. Hence the realism that I am talking about. Of course, this is just my perspective of how I see things. Others will differ, especially those that get on a game, run it through quickly and then jump onto the next one. Immersion probably isn't a big blip on the radar for that person, and that's okay. But for someone who is... what then?

Dante's comments make the most sense, as in where do you put an end to an NPC's abilities in later levels, and for that I agree as I have no answer. But I still feel that a VR6 mudcrab still doesn't make any sense, I'm only talking about the critters that have no place being of a high level vet rank. I'm not talking about Daedra and the like. They should be tough as nails to bring down.

I'm aware that if you leave many of the critters like mudcrabs alone, they will leave you be. Same cannot be said about skeevers or farmers. With the latter, some of you did make sense about that, so I can role play that idea as yes, indeed we just like the farmers, came from humble beginnings, but then the farmers rusty pitchfork shouldn't do the same damage as an enchanted purple broadsword should it? I'll have to give that some more thought.

do I understand the leveling process? I'd like to think so, my main is a VR10 so one would say I'm kinda familiar with how it all works, and I think I have a good enough handle on that. I understand that a VR1 mudcrab as an example wont yield VR10 mats, and that's fine with me, I don't expect it too and I don't see that being an issue either.

As for realism to include feminine cycles of the month, jesus... We still don't have proper beards yet, let alone the ability to give my female toon a Brazilian (which I have no interest in) so I'll let your sarcasm slide right my me.

waylander48

the farmer was inigo Montoya and you killed his father.

Micallef

@kijima OK, your second post made enough sense that I get you now. Having any VR level crab or rat as a representative of low level mobs in higher level areas of the game may be an indication of lazy developing or lack of time developing high(-er) level counterparts such as, say daedric crabs or rats with the appropriate graphic update (size scaling excluded, that *is* just lazy).

Apart from mobs, I see a lot of copy/paste "design" in this game; just look at buildings, inside and out. It is one of the aspects that I find disappointing in this game, but it doesn't distract from the fun all that much.

While I get where you are coming from, it doesn't pose a problem to me or my immersion, and I don't count myself among those who rush through content either.
My highest level is 33, I listen to every quest story at least once and I have been spending oodles of time in Cyrodiil. Having level 35 mud crabs that look the spitting image of their level 1 cousins along the shore now doesn't bother me in the least. I find it more remarkable when I loot 2 pieces of leather from a tiny crab while brother bear reliably only drops one...

Blackwidow

@‌kijima

/awesome

Of course you should not see mubcrabs be as powerful as a Vet character.

If they want to challenge you with monsters, use real monsters.

Simple animals should be simple to kill.

You want a mudcrab to be tough as a vet character, use a giant dire mudcrab, not a thing you could kill at first level.

People who argue any different are not thinking it through, or just defend ZOS out of habit.

Blackwidow

Soloeus wrote: »

1. Keeping creatures in zones around same power of player helps keep balance. If mudcrabs in V10 zone was a level 4 creature you would get the lowest level of Rawhide from it. Or it can be V10 and give the highest quality. Which do you prefer?

How about use creatures that should be tough at vet levels to drop better leather?

1st level -polar bear
Vet level - Frost giant bear

3. Suspension of Disbelief - is the common denominator here. You are in a world which features extra dimensional planes, daedra and argonians. Just like when watching a movie and understanding the difference of Fantasy and Reality you need to suspend some disbelief.

Suspension of disbelief only works if the rules of that world makes sense in that world.

Superman is a character we all can see flying around and shooting heat rays out of his eyes. We have come to believe in that character.

However, if you were watching a Superman movie and suddenly he had the power to grow fifty feet tall and turn invisible, we would all be like, "WTF?"

See, things have to make sense in the realm you are dealing with. So, in TES games accept fireballs and healing spells.

However, a crab you could kill at first level should not be able to kill you when you are 50th level. They need to use bigger and better creatures in those zones.

3. How far does your realism argument go?

Enough to keep the game seeming real enough for that world, yet keep it fun and not make it tedious.

kijima

^ Makes sense, I'm glad not every thread turns into arguments that are 'heated' because he/she thinks their perspective is the only way to look at things and therefore correct.

Blackwidow

waylander48 wrote: »

the farmer was inigo Montoya and you killed his father.

Best reply ever.

/awesome.

Arora

first of all you did not kill Molag you just injured his pride, he ran away to hide for a century or so. Thats it

Blackwidow

Arora wrote: »

first of all you did not kill Molag you just injured his pride, he ran away to hide for a century or so. Thats it

No, you did not kill him. He did.

See, he is actually the true hero. You were duped.

P.S. What is the second of all?

dcincali

EQ 1 did mounts right, when you were 10 levels higher then the mobs, they quit aggroing you cause you would *** on them... With the exception of the KOS guys in that one forest at night.. Here ill get knocked off my horse as a V12 with a lvl 50 horse by a level 5 archer.. REALLY???!!?

Soloeus

In many MMO's mobs too far over/under your level won't Aggro you.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

kijima wrote: »

Hello ZOS - Can I have some realism please!

Realism in a fantasy game?

Blackwidow

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

kijima wrote: »

Hello ZOS - Can I have some realism please!

Realism in a fantasy game?

One of the single most important features of a fantastical narrative is realism. It will all come to nothing if you fail to engage the player and convince him or her that all this could be happening right now. How do you perform such a marvellous feat? The answer is that it mostly depends on the way you implement your descriptive skills.

A good working rule for fiction involving fantastic events is to make everything which is non-fantastic in your story as realistic as possible. When coupled with careful pacing, you can gradually earn the player's conviction that the narrative is indeed anchored in the world they are familiar with, building up to the extraordinary events without straining credulity.

dcincali

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

kijima wrote: »

Hello ZOS - Can I have some realism please!

Realism in a fantasy game?

Put your hand over your head so next time it flies over you can catch it..

Soloeus

SO do you want women to have periods in game with tampon and maxi pad vendors and a menstruation system because that is how RL works?

How does ESO female biology work? Aren't they still Placental Mammals?


Oh, I guess you only want realism when you can gain something from it.

Speaking of which...

There is no mechanical or functional or physical reason why a level 1 character can't wear a full V12 set. Yet for some reason I am supposed to suspend disbelief and accept that my level 4 can't wear level 40 armor.

Oh and what about all the dialogues that force me to say yes or "Carry the Idiot Ball" when in reality I would help the other side instead, or be smarter and refuse to fall for it?

I guess your beliefs about realism aren't really that strong then. Will you do better than Zenimax did?

Please release your own MMO so that I can laugh at all its weaknesses and laud you with reality, refusing to suspend disbelief.


Edit:

There are no kids in ESO, where do people come from?
There are no places to poop in ESO, what happens to digested food?
We don't starve if we don't eat.
We don't freeze to death in the cold if we lack heat.
We can't catch diseases from being in a swamp;
Or dehydrate in a desert.
We don't lose our arm to Bear Attacks;
And we get to come back to life when we die.



Hmm. Maybe we don't need so much realism after all then.