Racial Imbalance

Junkogen

In the recent patch, a few racials got buffed. Why didn't Argonians or Redguards get anything?

Argonians are stuck with racials that are situational and largely niche in their uses. And Redguards are tethered to stamina, which is still inferior in relation to magicka.

Are they done tweaking racials or were the ones they buffed just the ones they managed to get to?

I hope not. Does anyone have any insight?

dodgehopper_ESO

Argonian racials are useful all the time. What is wrong with a massive boost to incoming heals, and potion effectiveness? That in and of itself makes them awesome, and their self healing is the most reliable boost of any race. As for Redgards I do not think they are weak. When it comes to tirelessly wielding their weapons they do a fantastic job of it. It really just depends what ability and weapon combinations you put on them.

Mablung

Junkogen wrote: »

In the recent patch, a few racials got buffed. Why didn't Argonians or Redguards get anything?

Argonians are stuck with racials that are situational and largely niche in their uses. And Redguards are tethered to stamina, which is still inferior in relation to magicka.

Are they done tweaking racials or were the ones they buffed just the ones they managed to get to?

I hope not. Does anyone have any insight?

I have a Redguard Bow Sorcerer and let me tell you, she rocks. What I am saying without getting too wordy is that you just have to find the right combination for the race. I like all of the racial passives except for the stupid Argonian swim one. That is just ***.

Laura

they certainly aren't up to par with some of the other races. i'd like to see more racial buffs instead of some of the stronger ones getting nerfs

Phantax

To be fair I've made/played most of the races and never noticed the Racials to have much of an effect either way?
Maybe Its my play style, but the racials have never affected my character choice.

ThePageMaster

Mablung wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

I like all of the racial passives except for the stupid Argonian swim one. That is just ***.

Oddly, the skill I use the most. That's a typical land lubber mentality. Take to the seas my friend, travel at pace through water and you'll find a whole new world exists. It's so much faster than running.

Most of all, it's a perfect opportunity to "Stay Moist!"

Junkogen

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Argonian racials are useful all the time. What is wrong with a massive boost to incoming heals, and potion effectiveness? That in and of itself makes them awesome, and their self healing is the most reliable boost of any race. As for Redgards I do not think they are weak. When it comes to tirelessly wielding their weapons they do a fantastic job of it. It really just depends what ability and weapon combinations you put on them.

No they aren't. All the other racials are always active. Argonian racials are seriously limited. Let's break it down:
1. Boost to swimming and potion effectiveness. This obviously requires the use of potions which means you have to make or buy potions. Switching between potions is clumsy and difficult. Not so easy while in combat. It's just not all that great compared to pretty much all the other always-on racials. None of the other racials are this restricted.
2. Poison and disease resistance. Okay here's one that's always in effect. However there aren't a whole lot of situations in PvP where these are necessary. Again, very limited.
3. A minor boost to healing, almost negligible. ZOS just boosted Robust to 30% health regen increase. Which would you rather have a 6% boost to incoming heals or a 30% boost to health regen that's just always active, no skill or extra ability required.

Argonians certainly do get the shaft when it comes to racials.

I couldn't believe it when I read the patch notes. They buffed pretty much every other race.

And Redguards, at least they have racials that work all the time. Still, stamina is inferior to magicka. I don't think it's balanced.

Enkil

I hope they overhaul all the racial stuff similar to the Nord change.. Racial choice should be meaningful. Anything that is affected by a Soft Cap should not be a racial attribute.

Junkogen

Phantax wrote: »

To be fair I've made/played most of the races and never noticed the Racials to have much of an effect either way?
Maybe Its my play style, but the racials have never affected my character choice.

If they don't matter then why did they buff some of them? They must matter somewhat. I agree that they don't make a huge difference but every little bit helps. And those that are always in effect make things easier for those races. I just think if they're going to buff racials they should spread the love evenly. Nords hit the jackpot. And did the Khajiit really need anymore?

I don't mind that they buffed them. They just left out others that really needed attention. I just hope this last round wasn't the last. I feel like the poor kid at Christmas.

dodgehopper_ESO

Enkil wrote: »

I hope they overhaul all the racial stuff similar to the Nord change.. Racial choice should be meaningful. Anything that is affected by a Soft Cap should not be a racial attribute.

It is not exactly fair to change people's racials in a meaningful way though at this point is it. What if it meamingfully ruins character concepts and builds after you are Vet 12?

Don't get me wrong I think they did a great job on Nord, in large part because Armor is not good and damage resistance was needed. I'm hoping they actually apply this knowledge that Armor is crap, to Heavy and Medium armors to equalize a problem between melee and magic.

With regard to Argonians, I think it is preposterous to think they are weak. Being able to self heal is something YOU the player control, and its on at all times. Getting it that much stronger is weak how? Combat Regen is garbage for health, and while I'd personally love my Argonian to get a higher magnitude on his abilities, I don't know how necessary that is.

If anything is wrong with Redgard at all, it is the fact they do not have their traditional resistance to Poison.

Enkil

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

I hope they overhaul all the racial stuff similar to the Nord change.. Racial choice should be meaningful. Anything that is affected by a Soft Cap should not be a racial attribute.

It is not exactly fair to change people's racials in a meaningful way though at this point is it. What if it meamingfully ruins character concepts and builds after you are Vet 12?

Don't get me wrong I think they did a great job on Nord, in large part because Armor is not good and damage resistance was needed. I'm hoping they actually apply this knowledge that Armor is crap, to Heavy and Medium armors to equalize a problem between melee and magic.

With regard to Argonians, I think it is preposterous to think they are weak. Being able to self heal is something YOU the player control, and its on at all times. Getting it that much stronger is weak how? Combat Regen is garbage for health, and while I'd personally love my Argonian to get a higher magnitude on his abilities, I don't know how necessary that is.

If anything is wrong with Redgard at all, it is the fact they do not have their traditional resistance to Poison.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying... but from a development standpoint.. they consider the PC version a Beta for console.. of course it will screw up balance. I am already pissed I made a Redguard DK instead of a Nord DK but what can you do??? It is very unfortunate and ludicrous that we have to resign ourselves to the fact that we are paying to play a beta for consoles but that's just how it works with game development these days.

Kos

I think not only racials but also class specific skills should be removed (or they could be subject to choice like other skills). All imbalance issues would be gone in an instant and it would be the choice, player's skills, gear, and the lag that would decide who wins. I believe that as long as there is at least 1 skill difference between two classes/races the perfect balance will never be achieved. Of course we would still see complaints about the skills themselves i.e. 'stamina builds are bad compare to magica builds' etc, but how much easier it would be to fix it if racial and class skills would not have to be taken into account. At least we would not hear whinging about how classes are overpowered/underpowered and 'rage quits' over it...

Junkogen

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

I hope they overhaul all the racial stuff similar to the Nord change.. Racial choice should be meaningful. Anything that is affected by a Soft Cap should not be a racial attribute.

It is not exactly fair to change people's racials in a meaningful way though at this point is it. What if it meamingfully ruins character concepts and builds after you are Vet 12?

Don't get me wrong I think they did a great job on Nord, in large part because Armor is not good and damage resistance was needed. I'm hoping they actually apply this knowledge that Armor is crap, to Heavy and Medium armors to equalize a problem between melee and magic.

With regard to Argonians, I think it is preposterous to think they are weak. Being able to self heal is something YOU the player control, and its on at all times. Getting it that much stronger is weak how? Combat Regen is garbage for health, and while I'd personally love my Argonian to get a higher magnitude on his abilities, I don't know how necessary that is.

If anything is wrong with Redgard at all, it is the fact they do not have their traditional resistance to Poison.

With regard to what you said about Argonians, it's only a 6% increase to heals. That's not much at all. I don't know why you keep saying it's massive. Can you please elaborate a little?

Aeratus

Argonian potion passive is one of the most powerful racial skills in the game. The reason is that you can use it with dps potions that increase criticals and power, especially spell criticals. Obviously, this bonus is useless for a level 20 character. But at high end v12, its one of the most powerful passives, especially when combined with NB. High end triple effect v5 potions are some of the most powerful items in the game.

+30 health regen for robust for Nords, etc. is not very good. When mobs are hitting you for a few hundred HPs per hit, a few extra regen almost makes no difference.

Overall, Argonians have one of the best set of passives.

Right now, all stamina-based racial bonuses are not effective, because stamina is weak.

Soloeus

As said by many others, Redguards and Argonians are pretty strong. It helps if you L2P and gear/stat up correctly. Stamina Builds work nicely, their only shortcoming is they don't have a fighters guild passive or something that reduces all stamina costs for all actions (but not roll dodge/block/etc).

This would "fix" the issue with Stamina Builds. Vampire and Werewolf both have passives that can help Stamina even if you don't prefer their actives. You can also get Stamina from food, enchants, potions, the real problem isn't that Stamina builds aren't good; the problem is there isn't enough ways to reduce the costs of stamina abilities.

RedMiniStapler

You don't need good racial bonus to sweep porches anyways. Speaking of which, why aren't you cleaning? Get back to work!

Hypertionb14_ESO

the only problem with redguards is the fact that stamina builds are trash atm..

if they ever fix the imbalance of stam builds vs magicka builds and stam builds become good, redguards will be the best at those stam builds...


No imbalances in any of the races..

Aeratus

Junkogen wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

I hope they overhaul all the racial stuff similar to the Nord change.. Racial choice should be meaningful. Anything that is affected by a Soft Cap should not be a racial attribute.

It is not exactly fair to change people's racials in a meaningful way though at this point is it. What if it meamingfully ruins character concepts and builds after you are Vet 12?

Don't get me wrong I think they did a great job on Nord, in large part because Armor is not good and damage resistance was needed. I'm hoping they actually apply this knowledge that Armor is crap, to Heavy and Medium armors to equalize a problem between melee and magic.

With regard to Argonians, I think it is preposterous to think they are weak. Being able to self heal is something YOU the player control, and its on at all times. Getting it that much stronger is weak how? Combat Regen is garbage for health, and while I'd personally love my Argonian to get a higher magnitude on his abilities, I don't know how necessary that is.

If anything is wrong with Redgard at all, it is the fact they do not have their traditional resistance to Poison.

With regard to what you said about Argonians, it's only a 6% increase to heals. That's not much at all. I don't know why you keep saying it's massive. Can you please elaborate a little?

Sorry I didn't notice this question for some reason when I wrote my earlier post.

First, let's look at hard numbers.

When playing in groups, you can be healed for over 2k health in 2 seconds. This can include healing from mutagen, healing wards, templar heals, and can include your own potions heals (which heals over 500 HP instantly for v5 potions). But let's make the situation more conservative and assume that you're healed for 1.5k in 2 seconds. This means that the +6% bonus gives you +90 HP.

Next, compare this to the Nord, Khajiit, etc. robust passive, which gives +30% regen in combat. This +30% translates to roughly +12 health every second, since health regen is naturally low. As you can see, the Argonian Quick to Mend bonus is much more preferable.

Additionally, while robust passive is always on, the quick to mend racial applies when it actually matters (which is when you need a substantial heal). Thus, the fact that robust is always on means that its "regeneration" is mostly wasted during the times when no healing is needed.

Junkogen

Aeratus wrote: »

Argonian potion passive is one of the most powerful racial skills in the game. The reason is that you can use it with dps potions that increase criticals and power, especially spell criticals. Obviously, this bonus is useless for a level 20 character. But at high end v12, its one of the most powerful passives, especially when combined with NB. High end triple effect v5 potions are some of the most powerful items in the game.

+30 health regen for robust for Nords, etc. is not very good. When mobs are hitting you for a few hundred HPs per hit, a few extra regen almost makes no difference.

Overall, Argonians have one of the best set of passives.

Right now, all stamina-based racial bonuses are not effective, because stamina is weak.

I disagree. Potions are items. Items run out. Items cost time and money to acquire. Potions also last at most 13 secs and then they have a cool down. No other racials have those limits imposed. The potion boost seems great on its face but it's a pittance compared to other racials.

Also, 12 health/s always running sounds great. Whereas 6% boost to heals is completely reliant on using an ability. Again, an example of Argonian abilities being dependent on other things. That's a limitation. When there is no healer, the ability becomes useless.

In the lore, Argonians are supposed to be great at guerrilla warfare and skirmishing, but their racials don't reflect that. Their racials are all defensive in nature. Why don't the devs give them something related to skirmishing or ambushing, something for offense. They really should be given something like Stealthy. At least then that ability would be spread out instead of confined to the Dominion.

In your opinion which racials are strongest and which are the weakest?

Junkogen

Soloeus wrote: »

As said by many others, Redguards and Argonians are pretty strong. It helps if you L2P and gear/stat up correctly. Stamina Builds work nicely, their only shortcoming is they don't have a fighters guild passive or something that reduces all stamina costs for all actions (but not roll dodge/block/etc).

This would "fix" the issue with Stamina Builds. Vampire and Werewolf both have passives that can help Stamina even if you don't prefer their actives. You can also get Stamina from food, enchants, potions, the real problem isn't that Stamina builds aren't good; the problem is there isn't enough ways to reduce the costs of stamina abilities.

L2P? Do you know of an easier way to switch potions besides the clumsy hold Q down and move your mouse? The potion boost seems great at face value, but it's so gimped by so many factors it becomes trash. Potions last for 10 secs at base value. How is a 15% boost to something that lasts 10 secs any good? It's not. If potions lasted longer I could see the argument that their racial is decent but as it stands it's pretty limited and meaningless.

And you even said in your post that stamina builds are weaker than magicka. That automatically puts Redguards at a disadvantage.

Again, I just think ZOS needs to be fair with these things. They gave buffs to pretty much every other race. It just put Redguards and Argonians that much more behind.

Sleestak

Junkogen wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

As said by many others, Redguards and Argonians are pretty strong. It helps if you L2P and gear/stat up correctly. Stamina Builds work nicely, their only shortcoming is they don't have a fighters guild passive or something that reduces all stamina costs for all actions (but not roll dodge/block/etc).

This would "fix" the issue with Stamina Builds. Vampire and Werewolf both have passives that can help Stamina even if you don't prefer their actives. You can also get Stamina from food, enchants, potions, the real problem isn't that Stamina builds aren't good; the problem is there isn't enough ways to reduce the costs of stamina abilities.

L2P? Do you know of an easier way to switch potions besides the clumsy hold Q down and move your mouse? The potion boost seems great at face value, but it's so gimped by so many factors it becomes trash. Potions last for 10 secs at base value. How is a 15% boost to something that lasts 10 secs any good? It's not. If potions lasted longer I could see the argument that their racial is decent but as it stands it's pretty limited and meaningless.

And you even said in your post that stamina builds are weaker than magicka. That automatically puts Redguards at a disadvantage.

Again, I just think ZOS needs to be fair with these things. They gave buffs to pretty much every other race. It just put Redguards and Argonians that much more behind.

There are addons that allow you to swap potions with keybinds...

Aeratus

Potions are essential to endgame, and they never "run out" because you can craft more of them or get them from drops.

Right now, the strongest racial abilities are the ones that boost Magicka-related performance, for endgame. Incidentally, the Argonian potion ability belongs in this category because you can craft potions that restore magicka, increase spell power AND increase spell crit (all three effects in one potion).

Personally, I play Khajiit NB. The Khajiit +critical racial ability is useless for me since I don't even use weapon skills (but there's not that much purpose for weapon skills since I'm still stronger with magicka even without any racial passives to boost magicka).

Junkogen

Sleestak wrote: »

There are addons that allow you to swap potions with keybinds...

Addons? Which ones? Also, that forces people to use addons which can mess up the game or introduce viruses into your computer. We shouldn't be forced to use addons to make something work well. I wish they would just introduce this to the game itself.

Junkogen

Aeratus wrote: »

Potions are essential to endgame, and they never "run out" because you can craft more of them or get them from drops.

Right now, the strongest racial abilities are the ones that boost Magicka-related performance, for endgame. Incidentally, the Argonian potion ability belongs in this category because you can craft potions that restore magicka, increase spell power AND increase spell crit (all three effects in one potion).

Personally, I play Khajiit NB. The Khajiit +critical racial ability is useless for me since I don't even use weapon skills (but there's not that much purpose for weapon skills since I'm still stronger with magicka even without any racial passives to boost magicka).

Yes, but potions do run out and materials take time to find. And the ones that make those powerful pots are rare. Also, potions only last at most 13 secs. Then there's the cool down time. Given all the limitations it's just not good. I just don't see how you can call that a decent magicka/spell boost.

Also, why did you pick Khajiit NB, if you don't mind me asking?

Sleestak

Junkogen wrote: »

Sleestak wrote: »

There are addons that allow you to swap potions with keybinds...

Addons? Which ones? Also, that forces people to use addons which can mess up the game or introduce viruses into your computer. We shouldn't be forced to use addons to make something work well. I wish they would just introduce this to the game itself.

I use greymind quick slot bar...

Junkogen

Sleestak wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Sleestak wrote: »

There are addons that allow you to swap potions with keybinds...

Addons? Which ones? Also, that forces people to use addons which can mess up the game or introduce viruses into your computer. We shouldn't be forced to use addons to make something work well. I wish they would just introduce this to the game itself.

I use greymind quick slot bar...

How does it work? What does it do?

Sleestak

[/quote]

How does it work? What does it do?[/quote]

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info258-GreymindQuickSlotBar.html

Aeratus

Junkogen wrote: »

Also, why did you pick Khajiit NB, if you don't mind me asking?

Originally, I wanted to play as a Bow/DW stealth character because that's how I played in Skyrim. So I selected Khajiit NB, since it match with this profile.

Then, I realized that stamina builds weren't cutting it, so I gradually switched to destro/resto starting at V5. I don't mind playing as a staff user, and it was actually fun to play a completely different character. However, the problem that Khajiits are underpowered for magicka does pose an issue.

The new upgrades to stamina is worth a look, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet to see if I'll switch back to stamina.

kijima

Racials are something that I believe needs a rework, the races that have the 15% experience buff are almost pointless and do nothing to help your toon move forward in the longterm, so I hope something is done with them in the future.

I'd like to see not the class be the thing that people are banging on about being Op but races instead, or perhaps race synergy linked with mundas stones, thats how I see things could be improved.

Dekkameron

Out of my eight characters.. SIX of them are essentially stamina based (Orsimer/Bosmer) and the other two are a Altmer and a Breton.

But whilst perhaps not ideal for their chosen line of work perhaps sometimes, i like them all the same.

Junkogen

kijima wrote: »

Racials are something that I believe needs a rework, the races that have the 15% experience buff are almost pointless and do nothing to help your toon move forward in the longterm, so I hope something is done with them in the future.

I'd like to see not the class be the thing that people are banging on about being Op but races instead, or perhaps race synergy linked with mundas stones, thats how I see things could be improved.

I'm already a little worked up about the racials. As I said, the Argonian racials are ridiculously sub par.

They just did a recent poll about which race people never play and Argonians top the list. That's probably the reason they've been overlooked and forgotten. While there are tons of players to advocate for the other races, the Argonians just don't have the numbers.