Returning to the Elder Scrolls [AI & Combat]

Humanistic

When I started testing this game in the long-term PTS, there were a lot of people saying it "didn't feel like an Elder Scrolls game"; myself included. Over the last few months, I have played this game quite extensively, trying to figure out 'why' it didn't feel like an ES game - the question plagued me, because no one person could really give me a straight answer. Some people said it was the lore, some people said it was the combat, the single-player experience - there were a variety of reasons, none very specific. So I decided to figure out why, and I believe there are many reasons. The biggest, and probably most prominent reason, is because this game was made to be a traditional MMORPG (even though some developers have publicly stated the opposite). The problem comes in trying to find the common ground. Personally, I believe the game has focused too much on the MMORPG side of things, and not enough on the Elder Scrolls side.

In this first discussion, I am keeping it light - I wanted to see if other people felt the same way as I did before I posted more.

Enemy AI

About as generic MMO as you can get - the mobs get angry and will chase you across the entire zone if you let them. Sprinting has little to no effect, (you either get snared, or your stamina drains extra fast while trying to sprint in combat). So you can't really "run away" from a whole lot of mobs unless you are traveling somewhere and don't plan on stopping. This doesn't really work for people who are questing, it's a waste of time for the player, and not very much fun running halfway across a zone to escape mobs because they weren't combat-ready. The mobs don't really work together to kill the player, because they aren't intelligent. It seems like all mobs have a 'zombie' mentality: spam attacks until enemy dead - this is the generic part of the AI.

This is where the Elder Scrolls experience is lacking for a lot of players; the big "This doesn't feel like an Elder Scrolls game" statement. All the way up to Skyrim, people have played ES a certain way, that way has been completely removed in this game. The AI is a LARGE part of this, as well as the combat - reasons listed below.

• You can't sneak around and pick off NPC's with a bow any more
• You can't even sneak effectively because the actual skill no longer exists
• You can't have a 'mage' battle because mobs do far too much damage to survive - or you run into other mobs trying to
• You can't dodge arrows or magic bolts
• Default attacks (left, right, back, charge) no longer exist
• Running from battle no longer exists, or rather it exists, but is extremely difficult to do - this goes for hiding as well (no sneak)
• To name a few...

The game is lacking in the ES experience - too much MMO, not enough ES. It seems fitting to have a class system with abilities in an MMO - in an Elder Scrolls game, it does not. That's not what it has ever been about.

If you're having trouble wrapping your head around these things, consider this: When you come to an enemy in other ES games, how did you handle it? How did you think you were going to handle it? Everything you did in those games you can't do here, besides running into a place, guns blazing.

RazielSR

i completely agree.

Darzil

I've not played other ES games, but one thing I have found here, but not in other MMOs, is the ability to (sometimes) pick off one monster of a group without aggroing the others, if they don't have line of sight to the one you aggroed. It most commonly happens when there is a camp with a high fire between them. Would be nice to see that happen more often.

When sneaking around the tricky thing I always find is that the margin of success is small, get it wrong sneaking between two groups of monsters and you aggro both rather than neither. In veteran levels that is almost instant death. And what I wouldn't give to get the Burglar's distract ability from LOTRO (a ground targetted thrown stone that makes the enemies look that way for a couple of seconds if not in combat).

The other issue is that the xp in veteran levels at least seems to be tuned assuming you do everything in a zone. If you skip killing monsters you end up very underlevelled.

Keverettusps

While this is an ES game it is still an MMO, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim were all Single player games crafted for a Single player Experience. That being said the AI in all ES games were terrible. You could sneak kill a mob and the others would search for 20 seconds and keep asking about the same dead guy like they didn't even know he died.

And on the point of mobs chasing you across a zone that is FALSE if you aggro a mob a certain distance and attack it, it will reset. Also if you are a certain distance you will no longer take damage, MIST form allows for evasion as well as Bolt escape.

You can dodge mostly all heavy attacks as well.

And the AI does work together I.E oil then fire. menders heal tanks.

Sabin1269

I agree with this too! My biggest complaints as far as the AI and combat are as follows; You cannot dodge most heavy attacks even if you watch the Enemy power up and you step back what seems to be 15-20' away you STILL get hit and stunned. It seems to be impossible to dodge arrows and most castings as stated above unless it's a skill from the enemy and you can get out of the red zone soon enough. I'm all for the game being difficult but even some low lvl bosses and mini bosses are WAY to over powered for being Lvl 5! When most new comers are starting to get their feet under them with the combat system they get trounced and humiliated by a mini boss 3 lvls under them.

Teevesnacks

Some new things I have noticed are npc's using CC breaks which surprised the hell out of me

Darzil

I quite like that the npc's get CC breaks too, though it's fairer in Cyrodil where the VR monsters aren't hitting like trucks. I have noticed that they often hit straight through by blocks with that effect, though, which doesn't seem right.

Merlin13KAGL

@Deadmedic‌. agree with much of this, plus more...

The AI mechanics, with a few interesting twists on Boss mechanics in later group dungeons do seem rather limited which make them predictable. There is no random factor like there is when fighting another person.

The fear factor is lacking...(The AI reaching a point where it realizes its own mortality and switches from Sacrifice-All-for-the-Cause mode to save-my-own-butt mode...) I remember in Morrowind when the mages would reach a point and drink an invisibility potion to try to save their own hide.

Visual cues are great...when you can do something about them...

Audio...not so much. When the AI announces "Sneak around to the right and kick him in the shins," the surprise factor is no longer there, for some reason...

The sneak factor is limited...Nice that they know right where to find me even though I left them dealing with my familiars 50m ago and am now hidden in a dark crevasse behind two trees and a waterfall...

Out of sight is not out of mind. (You could potentially re-hide in Oblivion...)

Still think the bandits in the wilderness should have to occasionally fight the monsters in the wilderness... There's something to be said about kiting a couple bears into the enemy encampment as a welcoming gift...

And agreed, Sprint does nothing but lower your soon-to-be-needed blocking stamina. Evasion is not an option. I swear it feels like you * s l o w d o w n * when you try to get away.

You fight and win, or you die. Period.

And lastly, for now, blocking (at least without a shield) seems all but non-existent... I've done over 1 million dungeon damage...I've not done 10k worth of block.

Either I suck at it (I don't think so), it doesn't work right, or I'm simply not bothering...the last of which lessens the value of the block, because, if I'd rather just eat the hit than try to block it, something's not balanced.

& Spell reflection seems even more non-existent than blocking without a shield does...

Tobiz

Deadmedic wrote: »

[

• You can't sneak around and pick off NPC's with a bow any more
• You can't even sneak effectively because the actual skill no longer exists
• You can't have a 'mage' battle because mobs do far too much damage to survive - or you run into other mobs trying to
• You can't dodge arrows or magic bolts
• Default attacks (left, right, back, charge) no longer exist
• Running from battle no longer exists, or rather it exists, but is extremely difficult to do - this goes for hiding as well (no sneak)

Ill bite.
I find the AI good. Not great, but if it were better the poor melee players would never survive. Too many cues to react to will leave players clueless.

I can dodge pretty much anything. Or are you talking the stat-based dodge or the roll-dodge? Roll dodge works great except when it lags.

Sneaking I use all the time for a hard hit on the head for an opener. Im a dragonknight so all I have is default with medium armour.

I agree concealed bow attacks should leave you in stealth. Imba in PVP!

What I would like to see is intelligent (human/deaedra) mobs get glasses so I cant stand 10 m in front of them and buff up for combat.

What is a "mage" battle?

Otherwise I like the melee combat. Its active and reactive.
Its just melee needs a buff!

Magdalina

I don't mind combat so much here, but then combat has never been the most important aspect of games for me:)

In TES...ha, first, up til higher levels I really sucked in TES combat, always. In Oblivion you could make spells and enchantments that made you pretty much ivincible in the end, in Skyrim the damage you did was on par with mobs - I set it to highest difficulty there was and either they died in 3 hits or I did, fun and fast xP

What I do not like about combat here is how I'm forced to spend most of my time fighting now. Can not got invisible and just run through them unnoticed(4 seconds invis potion? This must be a joke...) unless you're NB(as far as I know), cannot run away easily, mobs are EVERYWHERE and they get a fondness for company in higher level zones - all wandering in groups of 3 or so, making it even more annoying. With current state of vet trash, where they, while being extremely dumb, hit 3-4 times the damage I do and never run out of resources, the fights just feel like a chore. They have a lot of health, they hit like trucks, they take ages to kill, they're EVERYWHERE...and they're boring. Hard and boring.

I also do feel kinda excessively guided by quests - all those questmarkers and everything, but guess it's a compromise they had to make between the questlovers and powerlevelers.

Oh, far as combat goes, there's also the whole "play the way you want" thing. Which is obviously not true. Vet zones pretty much shove some things down your throat. Yes, I know some people manage to stubbornly hold on to medium and even heavy armor and I really admire those, but the majority has to go bathrobe&stick. Me, I'd actually really like to respec to medium and DW or something - like usual in TES(that at least is consistent:P) I get bored with magic after a while and just want to smack 'em in the face with something heavy and sharp. But then looking at vet trash...and looking again...yeah. No. Not happening. I'm not a uber player, I die enough as it is in "easy mode">_<

pinstripesc

The only thing I don't enjoy about the AI (I always considered this more of a dungeon design thing) is that in all the 4 mans I've done, there is just no strategic pulling at all. You pull 1 lone guy in a room with 15 guys in it, all 15 guys come at you. Sure, this is probably more realistic, but it just turns pretty much every room into a charge, survive-as-long-as-you-can-and-hope-people-burn-things-before you-die sort of affair for the tank. I'm used to tanking being about having a set of skills - not just being able to hold aggro (which doesn't really require any form of skill in ESO) or taking as much damage as possible, but knowing when and how to pull a single mob, small groups, etc, or move them around in just the right way to make things work.

williams226

I agree that some parts of the game do not entirely feel like Elder Scrolls games, but I do think that ESO is not like other MMOs.

I really like the quests and the variety of them. You don't always have to be off killing things or collected rat parts.

I would really like to have seen bigger areas with more single and group crypts to explore, with lots of uber loot / chests etc. Or even like Skyrim where you could get your Dragon Abilities it would be cool to unlock a unique spell or ability while exploring an ancient tomb.

One negative thing sometimes I feel disconnected to the game. Like in wood elf area, there is a quest where the hollow men are attacking a clan of wood elves, you have a choice, side with the wood elves or side with the hollow men. Now the bigger quest is to find the Wilderking and petition him to support the Alderi Dominion.

The wilderking made the hollow men, but you can choose to side with the wood elves but this has no affect on how the wilderking perceives you or what affect the wood elves have on the area.

Maybe they will change something in the future.......

Some quests do have a dialogue change, there was a quest in Elden Root where the necromancer trying to merge his dead sons spirit with the golem. Further on when you rescue the boys mother from the tomb in a different quest it gives you added dialogue but there are no consequences to your choice.

I think I would have liked a bit more of a moral/good/bad choice and to have an NPC question you or even turn hostile or even choose to help you. This would add a bit more to the game.

Humanistic

Magdalina wrote: »

I don't mind combat so much here, but then combat has never been the most important aspect of games for me:)

In TES...ha, first, up til higher levels I really sucked in TES combat, always. In Oblivion you could make spells and enchantments that made you pretty much ivincible in the end, in Skyrim the damage you did was on par with mobs - I set it to highest difficulty there was and either they died in 3 hits or I did, fun and fast xP

What I do not like about combat here is how I'm forced to spend most of my time fighting now. Can not got invisible and just run through them unnoticed(4 seconds invis potion? This must be a joke...) unless you're NB(as far as I know), cannot run away easily, mobs are EVERYWHERE and they get a fondness for company in higher level zones - all wandering in groups of 3 or so, making it even more annoying. With current state of vet trash, where they, while being extremely dumb, hit 3-4 times the damage I do and never run out of resources, the fights just feel like a chore. They have a lot of health, they hit like trucks, they take ages to kill, they're EVERYWHERE...and they're boring. Hard and boring.

I also do feel kinda excessively guided by quests - all those questmarkers and everything, but guess it's a compromise they had to make between the questlovers and powerlevelers.

Oh, far as combat goes, there's also the whole "play the way you want" thing. Which is obviously not true. Vet zones pretty much shove some things down your throat. Yes, I know some people manage to stubbornly hold on to medium and even heavy armor and I really admire those, but the majority has to go bathrobe&stick. Me, I'd actually really like to respec to medium and DW or something - like usual in TES(that at least is consistent:P) I get bored with magic after a while and just want to smack 'em in the face with something heavy and sharp. But then looking at vet trash...and looking again...yeah. No. Not happening. I'm not a uber player, I die enough as it is in "easy mode">_<

This is probably one of the biggest reasons I am no longer playing this game. You get to level 50 - and then all of your work is pretty much trashed because VR mobs are incredibly difficult. Don't get me wrong - I love a good challenge - but it has to be balanced. I can't even effectively level different armor/weapons/spells because if I don't use my level 50 skills, I die. That's not fun for me, and the whole point of playing games is to have fun.

Humanistic

@Tobiz - A "mage" battle is when you are fighting a mage, as a mage - caster vs. caster basically. Switching between spells to kill your opponent while trying to dodge THEIR spells is a lot of fun, but completely non-existent in this game. You can't strafe left to right to dodge a fireball (this goes for arrows as well), and I miss being able to do that. I can understand that the feature was a part of the single-player games, but I have seen it in other MMO's, and wonder why it wasn't included here.

Besides that, you need a lot of room for a mage battle, and the likelihood of accidentally running into another mob is very high in this game (happened to me more than a few times, even while paying attention to the surrounding area).

Tobiz

I C
Well I dont generally fight ranged, I like being up close and personal.
I dont agree though, dodge-roll does works against a ranged attack. Though it is so expensive in stamina that you are more likely to eat the damage rather then dodge a white attack but i use it occasionally when low health. You can always block though, except spell aoe.
I imagine the bow with a set of medium armour could pull this off better then a caster, bow vs bow would be what you describe lots of dodge rolling.

I do agree that you cannot strafe out of the way of a ranged attack. Soft target
they call it but it seems rather hard to me, at least in ranged. Melee its soft enough, sometimes too soft.
In melee range, if you keep moving around, youre likely to strafe out of at least some heavy attacks PVP and PVE.

In previous ES games you didnt have to consider that there was another player on the other side of the arrow and you could oneshot anything including dragons with an aimed shot with a bow.
You had to consider the drop of the arrow but a shot to the head was more damaging then a shot to the leg.
These are all present in other FPS games, but not in MMORPGs for some reason.
Since PVE and PVP is strictly divided it might work implementing this.
Imagine the crying of PVPers of lesser skill and melee in general.

Tobiz

Magdalina wrote: »

Me, I'd actually really like to respec to medium and DW or something - like usual in TES(that at least is consistent:P) I get bored with magic after a while and just want to smack 'em in the face with something heavy and sharp. But then looking at vet trash...and looking again...yeah. No.

What you describe is not so much a problem to vet difficulty but a problem with melee. Or actully how much damage you mitigate in a melee playstile, with medium and/or heavy armour.
Mitigation from armour and spell resistance is very low for a playstile that encourages you to be toe to toe with the enemy, you can only roll away so many times.

WhitePawPrints

The AI combat and pathing is certainly annoying. I hate how nearly all my abilities will not activate if I'm fighting an AI that is on a different elevation than I am. Or using a bow, it is so damn easy to back up into another mob and get killed. There is no such thing as using your terrain to your advantage in PVE.

My biggest gripe with this game is probably the phasing issues that completely negate the Elder Scrolls fans' desire to play this game. Most of us wanted to play and Elder Scrolls game with our friends; but cannot do it even for the main quests, Fighter's and Mage's Guild quest lines and have trouble playing with our friends when they build entire zones just for grinding (Craglorn). Force Solo and Force Group instance are the worst thing about this game.

GreySix wrote: »

If my wife and I could have played Oblivion or Skyrim cooperatively, we'd likely not have purchased and subscribed to ESO.

As is, we can't play cooperatively throughout ESO as it is, and that's a real shame.

Freedom is another huge issue with this game. Granted this is an MMO so it's more restricted than a game like Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind and even the pre-console generation games, but that does not excuse going with the most restricted level design in the existence of modern games.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

I think the RPG part is lackluster because you are clearly expected to do every quest and join all the guilds (all two of them) to be able to keep your level in sync with the world around you. In Skyrim, I could pick and choose what I wanted to do. Having different world-changing outcomes for different choices would of course be impossible to do in an MMO game, but I would still like to be able to role play by e.g. choosing not to get involved in politics and faction war (In Skyrim you could pretty much ignore the civil war and still do almost anything else), or joining only the Mages' Guild. By offering several paths through the game, Skyrim had a replayability that I don't see in ESO. After I have leveled one character in each faction, I will have seen everything of the base levels in the game. By comparison, I probably still haven't seen everything in Skryim. (Well, OK, maybe I have by now, but it took me a really long time before I felt I had played it to the nub.)

Of course you'll always get those toddlers who say you can't compare a RPG with an MMORPG for... "reasons". Then you see the same that you can't compare an Elder Scrolls game with a Warcraft game because of... "reasons". The only game you can compare ESO to is ESO because... "reasons". In my experience, there are two reasons people try to do this: 1. They're a two year old throwing a tantrum because you said you disliked something that they like. Or 2. They're trying (and failing) to sound intelligent by trolling. I guess these players prefer to have cookie cutter MMO level design just so they can have the same thing they're used to; no exploration, no progression, no accomplishment; just grind and min-max.

AinGeal wrote: »

Then there are some saying what an MMO is suppose to be about in its purest state. Grind through the levels then grind for the gear. Enjoy the gear for a bit and then have an expansion come out so you can do it all again. Rinse, repeat, ad nauseam.

Is this really what you not only expect but also want out of an MMO? I....I really don't know what to say to that that wouldn't probably get me banned from the forums.....I suppose that I'd much rather MMOs be much more fleshed out with a greater quality of content that is actually intellectual stimulated rather than content that can be completed by the lobotomized.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

There are a lot of Elder Scroll mechanics neglected that could easily be applied to Elder Scrolls Online. Lots of different MMO features that can be added to make it more immersive.