Melee compared to range...

Maximis_ESO

I was just wondering how everyone felt about melee compared to range. I have been leveling through the VR and have noticed that if I play a bow its pretty easy mode. Some of the world bosses can be slowed and knocked down with stonefist from the earthen heart skill line so its a cake walk.

Melee on the other hand is very difficult for me.

Tank build with 49 points in health, defensive abilities etc it can be done but with difficulty.

Now lets take a melee 2 hander built for more offense. I get my face smashed in by a few VR mobs and can barely kill a "strong" monster associated with the main quest line in the alikr'desert.

Anyone else have the same issues? Do I just need to readjust my melee builds or is everyone else experience something of this sort?

Also, on a side note. My 2 hand sword has a higher base damage than my bow. However, on the same creature, heavy attacks with my bow yield higher damage even though it has a lower base damage. I even have more points spend in 2 hand passive abilities which I thought was odd.

Ser Lobo

Honestly, I feel the biggest problem with melee (especially in third person), is auto-tracking. Targeting is so poor, there are misses that should have been hits (enemy well within range, etc).

My opinion is, like the bow, there should be a small 'auto-target' function built in. The pure 'aim target' mechanics suffer the same as they did in Skyrim third person.

Lynx7386

I just dumped most of my nightblade's money into respeccing for bow. Been melee since the start and it's just beyond frustrating. In PvE you're getting torn to pieces by pbaoe's, and in PvP you cant get close enough to anyone to attack without getting slaughtered by the zerg.

Liquid_Time

I very much enjoy the bow

joshisanonymous

I think it's gonna depend a lot on how you build around your melee weapon. I've only use DW on my NB but it's pretty easy just because of Shadow Cloak. I pull my bow out for boss mobs but that's mainly because my melee bar is set up purely for burst. I'm pretty sure I could handle boss mobs just fine with DW by just putting Siphon Attacks on that bar and something for health/evade.

Then there's always the AoE melee sustain DPS builds, pretty sure those exist for every class, except maybe Templars. Haven't really tried that, though.

But just saying is Bow better than 2H is a kinda difficult to say. Maybe it's easier to put together a build that works with one weapon or another, so that it seems easier to more people, but I don't know how else to really compare them.

Kos

2 handed build is bad I had the same problem.Now I play 1h + shield and sometimes switch to 2 hander but I am farming skill points to go into destruction staff in future (if I stay long enough , I still have faith in this game). 2 handed weapon was what I wanted to play from the beginning, but I was tired of dying in VR zones to any random group of 3 mobs. You could possibly fight 3 enemies with stone giant and petrify but it's taking forever and you don't feel like a damage dealer, it's like playing chess.
Also, I put most of attribute points in Stamina not in health.

Ninnghizhidda

Melee in ESO is, well, a farce, I am sorry to say. For decades I have been a dedicated melee / physical / "warrior" type of player, I just always disliked the ranged / mage type, it is just a personal preference.

Actually, it isn't just ESO but happens in many other games, especially MMOs. The close range characters get all the pounding, the "cowards" from afar are free to merrily kite, run, whatever, while blasting their targets with a big smile on their faces.

At least, in other games, being a melee / close range character has some merits. By actually doing serious melee / physical dps (on par or pretty close to "mage" / ranged dps). By actually being able to take and mitigating the damage if you are a tank type. Same goes for dps, since most melee ones would have also superior armour / defense and also health, endurance, prowess, survivability. And, finally, in many boss fights at least, there can be large aoes or ranged attacks that will actually affect players at range.

In ESO, this is of course further "biased", all in favour of the "Harry Potters", who not only are significantly more powerful, but have the "luxury" to finish off most mobs (at least the "trash" ones) from a safe distance, with minimal harm.

I have written this before... it all leaves a sour taste and, to me at least, is probably the biggest disappointment and let down this otherwise great game currently suffers from.

Maximis_ESO

Good to know I'm not the only one that is seeing this, I wish the soft cap or overcharge wasn't so low as well. I feel that armor choice doesn't seem to have a big impact on survivability I still get hit extremely hard with cloth or a full set of heavy.

jesterstear

I'd welcome some input from people with actual experience of using medieval combat weapons, but applying some common sense rules would rebalance things a little -

1) Even a "mere" 1 handed sword is a pretty much guaranteed hit and oneshot kill on someone not actively defending with a melee weapon to parry of their own or holding a shield.

2) Ranged weapons cannot be used on melee range targets. Staffs cannot be used to cast spells while blocking with them.

3) Bows cannot be used while moving at more than a slow walk.

4) Anything other than a shield will have low effectiveness blocking range attacks.

5) Shields should be as effective blocking magical attacks as they are against range.

6) Arrows are heavy and bulky and the player can only carry so many of them.

So basically, someone using a bow needs to have a melee weapon on their swap bar, because a bow cannot attack in melee range and cannot be used to defend against melee attacks.

Ninnghizhidda

jesterstear wrote: »

I'd welcome some input from people with actual experience of using medieval combat weapons, but applying some common sense rules would rebalance things a little -

1) Even a "mere" 1 handed sword is a pretty much guaranteed hit and oneshot kill on someone not actively defending with a melee weapon to parry of their own or holding a shield.

2) Ranged weapons cannot be used on melee range targets. Staffs cannot be used to cast spells while blocking with them.

3) Bows cannot be used while moving at more than a slow walk.

4) Anything other than a shield will have low effectiveness blocking range attacks.

5) Shields should be as effective blocking magical attacks as they are against range.

6) Arrows are heavy and bulky and the player can only carry so many of them.

So basically, someone using a bow needs to have a melee weapon on their swap bar, because a bow cannot attack in melee range and cannot be used to defend against melee attacks.

All these are pretty valid points. And there are games in the past who have tried to be "realistic" and at least apply these facts to a degree.

More or less, along the lines, a melee expert fighter should be pretty deadly in melee combat, especially against lightly armoured targets / opponents.

A ranged weapons expert using bows / crossbows / throwing weapons, should suffer some penalties while attempting to fight in melee, while would obviously be at advantage and deadly at range.

A "mage" using arcane powers and knowledge to channel those through simple or more complicated spells is usually performing best at range, and uninterrupted (since would need concentration to prepare and unleash the spell). Thus, could also be interrupted, resulting in the failure of the whole casting process, and this should have a high chance when at melee range.

All the above are well known since time immemorial. Even in a "fantasy world", there is supposed to be some degree of realism and balance.

Sadly, what we see in several games lately, and even more sadly in ESO, is complete crapola, usually in favour of "mages". Who can be virtually in "god mode", insta-casting with no interruptions, free to kite and run as you cast, free to hit defense / armour caps, health caps, infinite mana pools and regen etc etc etc... It gets too old and boring saying this again and over again. It just gets ridiculous.

Yeah, we know, many people will choose this, it is the easy way around and guaranteed (almost) for a carefree playstyle, and almost a ticket to be "the best" out there.

In my eyes, it is not really the players' fault, but the damn designers / developers fault, for whatever reason, to even allow this farce to happen.

End of story, now we can go back and do what we all personally fancy doing.

SFBryan18

Ranged weapons keeps you away from the enemy so you take less damage. Pretty obvious.

Maximis_ESO

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Ranged weapons keeps you away from the enemy so you take less damage. Pretty obvious.

No one is saying that it isn't obvious. We are discussing the imbalance within the game. It isn't just that you are getting hit less but your damage output is greater than a melee fighter. On top of that, my light armor sorc is able to hit the armor overcharge just as easy as my heavy armor DK. The armor doesn't seem to make a huge difference on survivability so when the target does get to you, you both die at about the same speed.

Melee has it a lot tougher, my heavy armor 2 hand DK dies very quickly even with most points in health. I have to use tons of defensive abilities and sword and board to be effective. However, if I put on a bow, with heavy armor. I can solo just about anything without getting hit. Most mobs are under 50% with my first sneak attack and poison arrow.

Its not just that you are away from the enemy.

NewBlacksmurf

Well...in real life ranged is a better way of not getting injured than melee.
I dont think there is anything wrong with the game, the reality is ranged weapons are far more effective in staying alive and taking less damage.

I've noticed that more than 90% of melee characters do not use the defensive spells and regeneration abilities they try to rely on 100% melee.

Casters healing and defend themselves, ranged avoid damage so if you're melee you would need to also mitigate or avoid damage.

My Templar plays as melee and as a ranged staff user in cloth. I also played in plate with sword and board from levels 1 - 30 for a while.

I felt useless then I realized that there are skills that use stamina (ranged skills) and when I used those along with a defensive magika spell skill I was almost invincible.

**Note* dumping a tons of points in life is not a winning strategy. You have to use magika and stamina based skills. This is not WoW or another MMORPG, tanking in this game only means you can taunt, defend yourself and others longer than the rest of the group.

I've tanked in medium and heavy or light and heavy mixtures using the passive skills. The game requires different approaches to each fight. One way of attack will not allow you to succeed so at level 15 everyone should have ranged and close skills. If not, you will find your character frustrating to play with. You also need to be able to heal yourself even if is just a HOT that you swap on and then back to melee weapons.

Casters and ranged don't have it better, it just that people focus on not getting hit. Melee tends to just stand there and I don't understand why people aren't blocking twice as often as they are attacking. Block, move stun....attack

Azzuria

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

In ESO, this is of course further "biased", all in favour of the "Harry Potters"

I am NOT a Harry Potter.

I'm an Archer! A Sniper, if you will.

SFBryan18

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Ranged weapons keeps you away from the enemy so you take less damage. Pretty obvious.

No one is saying that it isn't obvious. We are discussing the imbalance within the game. It isn't just that you are getting hit less but your damage output is greater than a melee fighter. On top of that, my light armor sorc is able to hit the armor overcharge just as easy as my heavy armor DK. The armor doesn't seem to make a huge difference on survivability so when the target does get to you, you both die at about the same speed.

Melee has it a lot tougher, my heavy armor 2 hand DK dies very quickly even with most points in health. I have to use tons of defensive abilities and sword and board to be effective. However, if I put on a bow, with heavy armor. I can solo just about anything without getting hit. Most mobs are under 50% with my first sneak attack and poison arrow.

Its not just that you are away from the enemy.

If ranged weapons have more damage, then I think that should be fixed. Not sure if that's the case, but the mistake they probably made was focusing on the lame MMO roles tank and dps instead of just focusing on a balance in weapons.

ebondeath

The bow mechanics and I just don't mesh. I die way more often trying to be ranged than I do as melee, and I die a lot to begin with.

I much prefer being melee, I feel like I have more control over the situation and can read cues for incoming attacks better.

Madval

I haven't tried the bow yet. Playing two handers. Need to check one day for the fun

Sihnfahl

Since you're a DK (mentioning EH abilities), here's my melee 2H setup in PvE:

Wrecking Blow, executioner, carve, green dragon blood and burning embers.

I don't die, even to V10 elite trolls.

Nymirah

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

Melee in ESO is, well, a farce, I am sorry to say. For decades I have been a dedicated melee / physical / "warrior" type of player, I just always disliked the ranged / mage type, it is just a personal preference.

[...]

I have written this before... it all leaves a sour taste and, to me at least, is probably the biggest disappointment and let down this otherwise great game currently suffers from.

I'm curious to know as someone whose preferred playstyle is melee, but finds it underpowered in this game - did you end up playing staff or bow in ESO? Or have you stuck it out with the melee?

When I first started playing MMO's way back when (how long ago you wonder? that's not polite to ask!) I use to play a paladin sort of character which graduated over time into less chivalrous and more badass warrior types. I felt really comfortable with this playstyle and seemed to do my best work that way.

However after one guild desperately needed a healer in another game (no, not WoW, & stop interrupting me, sheesh!) I realized how much I really liked playing support. Or rather, I liked being wanted and fawned over and appreciated instead of being the awkward last minute party addition.

As a healer I never had to hear... "Well we have one slot left in our group and there are no Gandalf's or L3golas's available so I guess the person with the pointy stick can come because it MAY be better than nothing."

But alas, in time I just couldn't take being the frilly, little "one-shot kill" girl hiding behind her tank and had to go back to being a warrior, knight, paladin, etc. So naturally, now I'm kinda scared it won't last in this game, and I will have to pull out the hair ribbons, skirts and lacy socks again.

So I'm quite curious. If you REALLY want to, is it worth it to stick with it in this game? Did you?

Sethyss

I haven't experienced many problems using 2h weapon in veteran content. For packs of mobs I tend to spam Cleave with the damage shield morph, and block/interrupt mobs when necessary. Also try to begin the fight by sneaking up to a mob and landing a heavy attack from stealth that can do anywhere between 50% damage and instakill.

Bosses aren't too much trouble, so long as they aren't immune to the Uppercut ability.

All that being said, my character is a sorcerer and he uses one class passive that improves armour and heavy attack damage, and another class ability to boost weapon damage and self heal on critical hits.

I might be having a lot more trouble with 2handed weapon if I wasn't using a sorcerer.

traigusb14_ESO2

Did VR 1-11 as a Heavy armor Axe and Shield Templar.

With my build and using the spell/skills I have I'm really hard to kill. My DPS isn't great. Mostly using STA low cut and MAG AOE blazing Shards + support heals and STA regen buff.

In PVP, I act as bait. I walk unstealthed between keeps to clear pickets, with 1-2 casters/NBs (stealthed). When 1-3 people try to gank me I stand there and take it while my buddies sneak up and beat the tar out of them. I toss in a snare or a stun to help out. With the right stuff on my bars, I can be nearly unkillable by up to 4 people for like 30 seconds.

Before the last patch that made PVP almost unplayable... I held off a DK and a NB for a min and a half with no real end in sight while 1 friend was scouting a mine and another still in the bathroom. Wasn't pretty when they came back, both of the baddies had almost no resources left.

Ninnghizhidda

Nymirah wrote: »

I'm curious to know as someone whose preferred playstyle is melee, but finds it underpowered in this game - did you end up playing staff or bow in ESO? Or have you stuck it out with the melee?

When I first started playing MMO's way back when (how long ago you wonder? that's not polite to ask!) I use to play a paladin sort of character which graduated over time into less chivalrous and more badass warrior types. I felt really comfortable with this playstyle and seemed to do my best work that way.

However after one guild desperately needed a healer in another game (no, not WoW, & stop interrupting me, sheesh!) I realized how much I really liked playing support. Or rather, I liked being wanted and fawned over and appreciated instead of being the awkward last minute party addition.

As a healer I never had to hear... "Well we have one slot left in our group and there are no Gandalf's or L3golas's available so I guess the person with the pointy stick can come because it MAY be better than nothing."

But alas, in time I just couldn't take being the frilly, little "one-shot kill" girl hiding behind her tank and had to go back to being a warrior, knight, paladin, etc. So naturally, now I'm kinda scared it won't last in this game, and I will have to pull out the hair ribbons, skirts and lacy socks again.

So I'm quite curious. If you REALLY want to, is it worth it to stick with it in this game? Did you?

Even in ESO, I still play, and will only play, "warriors", I have 3 characters currently (apart from the other 5 "mules" - thank the awesome inv / bank system for this, but that's another story). Main character is a VR1 (almost VR2) DK 2-hander user. 2nd character is a lvl 48 Templar S&B "tank", 3rd character now is a lvl 32 DK S&B "tank".

The VR "main", ah well, it was alright until VR, can manage because of the class (DK), otherwise it isn't that much very fun anymore. The Templar "tank" is really laughing stock, even at pre-VR levels. The DK "tank" is certainly better, I guess because of the DK class / abilities. All characters in 5 pieces of Heavy armour + (usually) 2 Medium.

The story in a few words: ESO is not melee "friendly", end of story. It is not "warrior" friendly. It is highly "mage" friendly. It is the first MMO I experience this kind of "imbalance" to such a great degree, forced by the game itself.

If the question is, whether you can still have your fun playing the "underdog" build / role, I would say, yes certainly. Only because ESO is still an Elder Scrolls game with variety and so many choices and exploration and this and that. If you want to be "competent" though... tough cr*ps. If you want to "sail" through VR, more tough cr*ps. I am sure you can hit VR12 with the worst possible build and setup. Just that it will be done with "blood and tears", while some "Harry Potter" will do it in a fraction of the time and hardly any sweat.

And this has been the greatest failure of ESO in my eyes, while we had been "promised" the now (in)famous "play as you like, be what you want". Just my personal experience and opinion, of course.

Vizier

They need to make the benefits and disadvantages of putting points into attributes more viable. Make the benefits of stats gained through spending skill points way more effective then stats gained through enchantments. Right now most people simply put all points into health because the net gain far surpasses points spent in other categories.

It should be that you can not have a maxed out manna pool with uber regen and NOT one point spent on Manna. Make them(mages) less mobile in that unless you have spent serious points in stamina your combat regen slows to a crawl.

Stealth is a valuable skill available to all classes, highly used in PvP. Being stealthy takes strength and conditioning. It's tiring work to move quickly and quietly, yet everyone does it effectively without spending a single point in Stamina. You could keep the TES flavor of all classes using all abilities but make it so sustained stealth is just not possible without points spent in Stamina. I'd even take it a step further and improve upon abilities such as shadow cloak by adding time for those with deeply specked stamina pools.

As is we can be an effective Mages having spent no points in magicka. And can do so while wearing heavy armor on top of it. This should not be possible. TES series hallmark is to allow all classes to use all abilities. Fighters use magicka but it should be incidental use not fundamental to their builds...unless they have spent points in Magicka.

So what we have is a population of with Maxed out HP and health regen while at the same time meeting at least the soft cap levels through enchantment, basically bringing all the needed benefits from the Stamina and Magicka pools as well.

I believe the above mentioned approach to stats pool benefits and disadvantages would even out the balance and allow roles to be more pronounced based on skill sets...just sayin...

Lynx7386

A ranged weapons expert using bows / crossbows / throwing weapons, should suffer some penalties while attempting to fight in melee, while would obviously be at advantage and deadly at range.

Guessing you've never been whacked upside the head by a bow.

Sarcasm aside, this would be fine if snares and such actually worked properly and werent so easy to break out of.

if that were the case, I'd be fine suffering a damage penalty when enemies are within 7 meters. Then again, the bow range would need to be boosted up to 40+ meters so that we could at least get a few shots off before the meleer just charges into range.

Melee can charge at 28 meters (or more with some buffs), and since bow range is currently 28 meters (30ish, really), a meleer can get into attack range instantly when engaging a ranged opponent. If you throw in a damage penalty for the ranged guy in that situation, you're severely hindering that side of the fight. That isnt balance.

1) Even a "mere" 1 handed sword is a pretty much guaranteed hit and oneshot kill on someone not actively defending with a melee weapon to parry of their own or holding a shield.

And getting shot in the chest with an arrow is pretty much a guaranteed oneshot kill as well, dont you agree?

I can see heavy armor fending off arrows pretty well, as chainmail and plate are both designed to fend against arrows and bolts, but medium and light armor would not stand a chance against an arrow coming at them.

2) Ranged weapons cannot be used on melee range targets. Staffs cannot be used to cast spells while blocking with them.

As said above, if a meleer can charge into weapon range instantly at the same max range that a bow can even start shooting at, you cant penalize the ranged player without creating an even worse imbalance.

Give bows that 40-50 meter range and working snares, and throw some disabled limbs and oneshot kills in to the targets you hit, and then we'll talk.

3) Bows cannot be used while moving at more than a slow walk.

The most famous archers of the old world were genghis khan's mongolian cavalry archers. They could hit a bullseye with a bow from horseback in full charge, and could draw and restring another arrow within a second.

Now since we dont have mounted combat, I'd agree that it is much less likely you're going to hit a target while moving that fast on foot, and at least an accuracy penalty should be present there. Then again, a guy in full heavy plate armor wielding a greatsword shouldnt be able to move at more than walking speed, either, so the archer would have no need to run and shoot at the same time.

5) Shields should be as effective blocking magical attacks as they are against range.

A wooden shield isnt going to be all that effective against a fireball, or a metal shield against lightning. That said I've no love of spellcasters in this game, so I wouldnt entirely disagree.

6) Arrows are heavy and bulky and the player can only carry so many of them.

All the more reason those arrows should be accurate to their real-world deadliness, then? If you're going to limit my ammo then I want those one shot kills against anyone not covered head to toe in platemail.






Now, with all that stupid arguing over with, there are other issues you guys arent taking into account:

-This is a fantasy setting, where magic exists and is widely used. Armor is not going to be effective against magic. Someone in plate steel is going to be either cooked alive by fireballs or electrocuted by lightning.
-The tradeoff there is that you do not suffer a movement speed penalty for wearing heavy armor here. Would you really want to be reduced to 25% movement speed just because you choose to wear heavy instead of light or medium?

-Bows in this game should not be lumped in with magic. Right now, bows are given the weapon power attribute of a 1handed weapon, despite using both weapon slots. That's why bow damage is so poor at the moment.

-Melee definitely needs a damage boost if you ask me, but then again so do -all- stamina based skills in the game.

Maximis_ESO

[quote

-Bows in this game should not be lumped in with magic. Right now, bows are given the weapon power attribute of a 1handed weapon, despite using both weapon slots. That's why bow damage is so poor at the moment.

quote]

You must be mistaken, bow damage is not weak and utility it provides with knockback/slows is amazing. Also, it is almost guaranteed to get a sneak attack in any fight, compared to other weapons where you have to get closer and run that risk of not getting it off. Bow damage is not low.

monkeymystic

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

I was just wondering how everyone felt about melee compared to range. I have been leveling through the VR and have noticed that if I play a bow its pretty easy mode. Some of the world bosses can be slowed and knocked down with stonefist from the earthen heart skill line so its a cake walk.

Melee on the other hand is very difficult for me.

Tank build with 49 points in health, defensive abilities etc it can be done but with difficulty.

Now lets take a melee 2 hander built for more offense. I get my face smashed in by a few VR mobs and can barely kill a "strong" monster associated with the main quest line in the alikr'desert.

Anyone else have the same issues? Do I just need to readjust my melee builds or is everyone else experience something of this sort?

Also, on a side note. My 2 hand sword has a higher base damage than my bow. However, on the same creature, heavy attacks with my bow yield higher damage even though it has a lower base damage. I even have more points spend in 2 hand passive abilities which I thought was odd.

Range > melee. Especially in pvp.
Having the option to deal damage to someone from range, while they are unable to attack back is simply better.

Maximis_ESO

monkeymystic wrote: »

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

I was just wondering how everyone felt about melee compared to range. I have been leveling through the VR and have noticed that if I play a bow its pretty easy mode. Some of the world bosses can be slowed and knocked down with stonefist from the earthen heart skill line so its a cake walk.

Melee on the other hand is very difficult for me.

Tank build with 49 points in health, defensive abilities etc it can be done but with difficulty.

Now lets take a melee 2 hander built for more offense. I get my face smashed in by a few VR mobs and can barely kill a "strong" monster associated with the main quest line in the alikr'desert.

Anyone else have the same issues? Do I just need to readjust my melee builds or is everyone else experience something of this sort?

Also, on a side note. My 2 hand sword has a higher base damage than my bow. However, on the same creature, heavy attacks with my bow yield higher damage even though it has a lower base damage. I even have more points spend in 2 hand passive abilities which I thought was odd.

Range > melee. Especially in pvp.
Having the option to deal damage to someone from range, while they are unable to attack back is simply better.

Yes, but in most games once the gap is closed the melee have the advantage but that isn't the case in ESO, which makes melee absolutely obsolete.

Giraffon

VR2 doing Sword and Board DK. Mostly in PvP. It's ugly on most days. Fun, but ugly. PvE feels like vacation after a few hours of getting abuse by Zerg AOEs

R0M2K

Melee damage should be buffed x2.

- its a hit vs 1 player/mob most of the time
- You expose yourself


Cant understand why devs dont buff it asap.

eventide03b14a_ESO

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, I feel the biggest problem with melee (especially in third person), is auto-tracking. Targeting is so poor, there are misses that should have been hits (enemy well within range, etc).

My opinion is, like the bow, there should be a small 'auto-target' function built in. The pure 'aim target' mechanics suffer the same as they did in Skyrim third person.

Definitely the hit boxes need to be way more forgiving. For instance if I use ambush and want to follow up with a shadowy disguise and concealed weapon combo it won't go off if my reticle is even slightly off. That's not the case with bows or any other ranged weapon. Honestly if your character is even facing the same direction as a mob and you are in range you should be able to hit them. Melee combat is an exercise in frustration in this game, especially if you play a class like a nightblade.