The Solution to Content: Elder Scrolls Online Construction Set (ESOCS)

Ser Lobo

Many Elder Scrolls fans have experienced how strong the modding community is for the franchise. Between massive quest lines and new guilds, to expansive world additions and amazing houses? Voice acted companions, modified armor, on, and on, and on.

Nude mods not withstanding.

But in the end, it's this wonderful community of dedicated talent that can turn a typical Elder Scrolls game into so much, much more. And it's missing from ESO.


What is a Construction Set

Well, that's what it used to be called. In Skyrim it became a Creation Kit for some reason. Either way, it allows players to alter the game world, by either adding new content, changing existing values, or removing things they disliked, all in a rather simple but powerful interface that was very similar to what the developers claimed to use.


Would it work for an MMO?

The short answer is yes. Looking at a similar system in Cryptic/Perfect Worlds games, including Star Trek Online and Neverwinter Nights, player-made content can function just fine.

Older games, such as Star Wars Galaxies, also included in-game tools allowing players to build quests and events (though to be honest, SWG's event tools were horrendously bad).


Is it right for a player to change the game world?

This is the downfall, but easily worked around. If you don't allow the player to change developer-designed content, you have to give them some place new to play. Luckily for us, The Elder Scrolls is full of alternate planes and dimensions, primarily in the form of the Aether and Oblivion.


Building in Oblivion? Isn't that like Coldharbour? Isn't it all lava like in Oblivion?

Not every plane of Oblivion is a blue-tinted foggy waste, or lava-ladden. Some are beautiful forests full of dangerous creatures, or insane cities of air and clouds. From the most mundane varieties to the most far-fetched, Oblivion is shaped by the minds of their creators, and follows few of the laws of Mundus.


What couldn't be changed?

One of the biggest issues developers and balance workers face is deciding what can and cannot be added. New armor with awesome bonuses? New skill lines with instant death? Out of character actors talking about their favorite television series?

A line has to be drawn for the sake of this multiplayer experience. Letting players know before they leave Tamriel that what they experience may be beyond the scope of the world? Easily done. But I don't believe players should have a say in creating new gear or skill lines, or anything that can be brought out into the world.


The social content connection.

Players can build their own houses, their own private hangouts, their own guild halls. These types of 'non-quest' locations could easily be handled by the game and the designers, allowing the player much more freedom of expression.


Where's the carrot?

For those quest missions, there would probably be two stages: Premier quests (those vetted by the developers and players and made semi-official, with decent quest rewards, experience gain, chests and objects to loot and possibly even skill points if it's good enough), and non-cannon quests (those that don't pass the vetting process and are considered 'for fun', with a small randomly generated item at the end and gold).

The vetting process, which could be handled on PTS or by the community, is important. As Neverwinter Online exhibited, many players are intent on creating methods to cheat the system, either through easy grinds or mass loot options, etc. Because of this, the vast majority of player-generated quests would have to be 'just for fun'.


What about voice acting?

Non-essential, if you ask me. Though if ESO found some really great quests, voice acting could be added. Or they could offer this up to the community, of which many have contributed great voice acting to some Oblivion and Skyrim mods.


Too long, didn't read

If you want infinite content, give it to the players. We're bored, we're creative, and we're as invested (if not more so) into Elder Scrolls as the developers themselves.

Zabus

I think this would be an awesome idea!

Laura

Neverwinter foundry has player created dungeons and stuff.

Heck even EVERQUEST TWO has player made dungeons.

would be awesome +awesome

Sturmwaffel

I stopped reading at

"Looking at Cryptic/Perfect World games..."

As soon as this game bears any resemblance whatsoever to a Chinese based F2P MMO where they purposely cause imbalance and all profits go to developing their star child game-- I'm out.

Never, ever, speak of a company so horrible in the presence of a subscription based game.

Ser Lobo

Sturmwaffel wrote: »

I stopped reading at

"Looking at Cryptic/Perfect World games..."

As soon as this game bears any resemblance whatsoever to a Chinese based F2P MMO where they purposely cause imbalance and all profits go to developing their star child game-- I'm out.

Never, ever, speak of a company so horrible in the presence of a subscription based game.

I can't argue too much on that. There developer practices alone, of cycling a small development team between six or more games to design a new expansion each month, means updates and patches are often months in between.

Not to mention the cash shop.



But then again, lessons can always be learned, even from Forrest Gump.

Sturmwaffel

Even so, Neverwinter did have a unique "Foundry quest builder" mechanic. However that only turned into one guy building a fast 15-minute quest (minimum time for daily quest) and everybody speed running it.

Construction set? Hell yeah I would be behind it, but if it has any connection to reward or advancement-- it will break the game, I guarantee it.

Ser Lobo

Sturmwaffel wrote: »

Even so, Neverwinter did have a unique "Foundry quest builder" mechanic. However that only turned into one guy building a fast 15-minute quest (minimum time for daily quest) and everybody speed running it.

Construction set? Hell yeah I would be behind it, but if it has any connection to reward or advancement-- it will break the game, I guarantee it.

I think borrowing again from Neverwinter, with a community-run group that checks new quests for bugs, lore breaking or cheats?

The key being that actual rewards are added to the end of the process. Instead of just being another daily grind reward.

Mablung

Great idea OP. I hate to say though that we will not see this anytime soon. Has to do with that ego and vision thing I have mentioned in other posts.

Anyhow, while am not a big modder, I do have over 200 mods attached to my Skyrim game. The creations made by modders in Skyrim community are fantastic and honestly, modding is what has made the ES series so successful.

Chatoyancy

I've never played an MMO that had that type of content, but it would be really cool to try. I can't even imagine the consequences -- good or bad -- of having that kind of content.

I'm for it.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Very cool idea. I have always been a player that embraced mods in previous TES games. Hell, my last save from Skyrim was rocking over 200 mods. Ultimately though, i think major player mods like you are suggesting are unworkable in an MMO like TESO, as it is currently at least. Add-ons like we have now are one thing, but say a mod of the same caliber of one of my favs from Skyrim, Better Vampires, just won't fly.

In offline TES games, mods work because aside from occasional official patches, the client is fairly static. And players have the option to pick and choose which mods-if any-they actually use.

In an MMO, as much as some players hate the concept, balance must be maintained. Say a player-made mod is accepted for large scale implementation by ZOS, that means all players would have to use the mod. It also means the content of said mod would have to become a consideration of the devs when they are adding other content down the road. Not to forget someone will have to keep this player mod up-to-date.

And this is one mod. Multiply the very rough idea of mine above to many player made mods.

Now i did read your whole OP and i did see where you gave a sort of solution to my concern. But your solution just wouldn't work without not insubstantial necessary changes to the game engine.

...Letting players know before they leave Tamriel that what they experience may be beyond the scope of the world? Easily done...

Yes, player characters won't be bringing things back from player made mods and the environments they experience elsewhere wouldn't need to follow the same rules as in the main game, but what would happen to the characters themselves? What kind of system would have to be in place to facilitate moving character data to and from player made mods? And what would safeguard said character data from things like corruption, total loss, unforeseen stat changes, etc.?

Like i said first off, great idea. Maybe, if ZOS can seriously shore up the stability of TESO, they can try implementing something like your suggestions down the road. But currently, i'd really want them to be able to successfully implement a relatively simple inhouse content patch consistently first.

Ser Lobo

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

Yes, player characters won't be bringing things back from player made mods and the environments they experience elsewhere wouldn't need to follow the same rules as in the main game, but what would happen to the characters themselves? What kind of system would have to be in place to facilitate moving character data to and from player made mods? And what would safeguard said character data from things like corruption, total loss, unforeseen stat changes, etc.?

Like i said first off, great idea. Maybe, if ZOS can seriously shore up the stability of TESO, they can try implementing something like your suggestions down the road. But currently, i'd really want them to be able to successfully implement a relatively simple inhouse content patch consistently first.

I believe you are making it more complex, probably unintentionally, than it really is.

The mod incorporates itself using the gameworld. Your character doesn't really LEAVE the server at all (as local environments and whatnot are all client hosted anyhow, not server-based). Your client just tells it to load known textures in selected x,y,z locations, and viola ... your still on the server, but in a private area.



Now as far as most TES mods are concerned (which edit the mechanics of the game world, like changing the weight of items, or the power of an ability), these obviously wouldn't be acceptable levels of change, unless they were somehow set aside for special instances.

Spiritreaver_ESO

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

I believe you are making it more complex, probably unintentionally, than it really is.

The mod incorporates itself using the gameworld. Your character doesn't really LEAVE the server at all (as local environments and whatnot are all client hosted anyhow, not server-based). Your client just tells it to load known textures in selected x,y,z locations, and viola ... your still on the server, but in a private area.

I didn't describe well, admittedly. This prolly won't be any better, sorry up front.

The player character ends up in a private area, or in the parlance of a megaserver, a shard or instance?

But my questions are still essentially the same. I mean, as much as i actually do like the game despite everything, what kind of safeguards would need to be in place to handle character data? As is, 2 months plus after launch, you sneeze on the engine and character data un-syncs and causes all sorts of issues.

I'm still having to /reloadui or do full game shutdowns followed by client repairs on an almost weekly basis. And that is with just with the base game from ZOS.

Yes, some sort of framework to standardize player-made offerings would by necessity have to be made. But it would still be a brand new system layered on top of a currently not too stable one. Are players going to have to keep their mods in working order? Or is that gonna fall to ZOS? And what happens if upkeep falls through the cracks?

My main concern: The safety of Character Data.

Like i said before, i actually love your idea. I just can't see it doing anything other than ending in tears until after ZOS gets an actual handle on the game's stability.

WrathOfRegicide

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Many Elder Scrolls fans have experienced how strong the modding community is for the franchise. Between massive quest lines and new guilds, to expansive world additions and amazing houses? Voice acted companions, modified armor, on, and on, and on.

Nude mods not withstanding.

But in the end, it's this wonderful community of dedicated talent that can turn a typical Elder Scrolls game into so much, much more. And it's missing from ESO.


What is a Construction Set

Well, that's what it used to be called. In Skyrim it became a Creation Kit for some reason. Either way, it allows players to alter the game world, by either adding new content, changing existing values, or removing things they disliked, all in a rather simple but powerful interface that was very similar to what the developers claimed to use.


Would it work for an MMO?

The short answer is yes. Looking at a similar system in Cryptic/Perfect Worlds games, including Star Trek Online and Neverwinter Nights, player-made content can function just fine.

Older games, such as Star Wars Galaxies, also included in-game tools allowing players to build quests and events (though to be honest, SWG's event tools were horrendously bad).


Is it right for a player to change the game world?

This is the downfall, but easily worked around. If you don't allow the player to change developer-designed content, you have to give them some place new to play. Luckily for us, The Elder Scrolls is full of alternate planes and dimensions, primarily in the form of the Aether and Oblivion.


Building in Oblivion? Isn't that like Coldharbour? Isn't it all lava like in Oblivion?

Not every plane of Oblivion is a blue-tinted foggy waste, or lava-ladden. Some are beautiful forests full of dangerous creatures, or insane cities of air and clouds. From the most mundane varieties to the most far-fetched, Oblivion is shaped by the minds of their creators, and follows few of the laws of Mundus.


What couldn't be changed?

One of the biggest issues developers and balance workers face is deciding what can and cannot be added. New armor with awesome bonuses? New skill lines with instant death? Out of character actors talking about their favorite television series?

A line has to be drawn for the sake of this multiplayer experience. Letting players know before they leave Tamriel that what they experience may be beyond the scope of the world? Easily done. But I don't believe players should have a say in creating new gear or skill lines, or anything that can be brought out into the world.


The social content connection.

Players can build their own houses, their own private hangouts, their own guild halls. These types of 'non-quest' locations could easily be handled by the game and the designers, allowing the player much more freedom of expression.


Where's the carrot?

For those quest missions, there would probably be two stages: Premier quests (those vetted by the developers and players and made semi-official, with decent quest rewards, experience gain, chests and objects to loot and possibly even skill points if it's good enough), and non-cannon quests (those that don't pass the vetting process and are considered 'for fun', with a small randomly generated item at the end and gold).

The vetting process, which could be handled on PTS or by the community, is important. As Neverwinter Online exhibited, many players are intent on creating methods to cheat the system, either through easy grinds or mass loot options, etc. Because of this, the vast majority of player-generated quests would have to be 'just for fun'.


What about voice acting?

Non-essential, if you ask me. Though if ESO found some really great quests, voice acting could be added. Or they could offer this up to the community, of which many have contributed great voice acting to some Oblivion and Skyrim mods.


Too long, didn't read

If you want infinite content, give it to the players. We're bored, we're creative, and we're as invested (if not more so) into Elder Scrolls as the developers themselves.

I got to agree that would be pretty bada** but, I don't know how it could work in a MMO setting. I mean they would have to regulate everything everyone submits, and I doubt zeni would want to put that much effort into looking at every persons construction set submission.

kassandratheclericb14_ESO

I'm curious OP...before I ask more....have you made mods for TESO games or just used them?

Tannakaobi

Sturmwaffel wrote: »

I stopped reading at

"Looking at Cryptic/Perfect World games..."

As soon as this game bears any resemblance whatsoever to a Chinese based F2P MMO where they purposely cause imbalance and all profits go to developing their star child game-- I'm out.

Never, ever, speak of a company so horrible in the presence of a subscription based game.

Such a closed mind. The post in no way said these games were good or even bad for that matter. It was an example, a good one too because as bad as those games are the user based content is really a very good feature.

All the faults in PWE are based around the structure of the company. The games are designed to have minimum development for maximum profit. They use big names such as Star Trek and D&D to create a small but consistent fan base. They add over the top item shops and a cash for gold system. These are the reasons why they are poor. The player-made content just happens to be something they stumbled across designed by Cryptic. PWE don't even know what to do with it.

Edit: Op, I agree. I made a thread myself but it's didn't generate much interest. I honestly don't see the type of people that make these mods bothering with ESO for too long to be honest.

ESO is so far away in terms of gameplay.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/111823/should-there-be-a-modable-map#latest

Ser Lobo

kassandratheclericb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm curious OP...before I ask more....have you made mods for TESO games or just used them?

Quests and houses, and in Oblivion, one armor re-skin.

Did a lot more modding in Oblivion. Talos Plaza Home was one of the few I shared outside of friends and family.

Tannakaobi

WrathOfRegicide wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Many Elder Scrolls fans have experienced how strong the modding community is for the franchise. Between massive quest lines and new guilds, to expansive world additions and amazing houses? Voice acted companions, modified armor, on, and on, and on.

Nude mods not withstanding.

But in the end, it's this wonderful community of dedicated talent that can turn a typical Elder Scrolls game into so much, much more. And it's missing from ESO.


What is a Construction Set

Well, that's what it used to be called. In Skyrim it became a Creation Kit for some reason. Either way, it allows players to alter the game world, by either adding new content, changing existing values, or removing things they disliked, all in a rather simple but powerful interface that was very similar to what the developers claimed to use.


Would it work for an MMO?

The short answer is yes. Looking at a similar system in Cryptic/Perfect Worlds games, including Star Trek Online and Neverwinter Nights, player-made content can function just fine.

Older games, such as Star Wars Galaxies, also included in-game tools allowing players to build quests and events (though to be honest, SWG's event tools were horrendously bad).


Is it right for a player to change the game world?

This is the downfall, but easily worked around. If you don't allow the player to change developer-designed content, you have to give them some place new to play. Luckily for us, The Elder Scrolls is full of alternate planes and dimensions, primarily in the form of the Aether and Oblivion.


Building in Oblivion? Isn't that like Coldharbour? Isn't it all lava like in Oblivion?

Not every plane of Oblivion is a blue-tinted foggy waste, or lava-ladden. Some are beautiful forests full of dangerous creatures, or insane cities of air and clouds. From the most mundane varieties to the most far-fetched, Oblivion is shaped by the minds of their creators, and follows few of the laws of Mundus.


What couldn't be changed?

One of the biggest issues developers and balance workers face is deciding what can and cannot be added. New armor with awesome bonuses? New skill lines with instant death? Out of character actors talking about their favorite television series?

A line has to be drawn for the sake of this multiplayer experience. Letting players know before they leave Tamriel that what they experience may be beyond the scope of the world? Easily done. But I don't believe players should have a say in creating new gear or skill lines, or anything that can be brought out into the world.


The social content connection.

Players can build their own houses, their own private hangouts, their own guild halls. These types of 'non-quest' locations could easily be handled by the game and the designers, allowing the player much more freedom of expression.


Where's the carrot?

For those quest missions, there would probably be two stages: Premier quests (those vetted by the developers and players and made semi-official, with decent quest rewards, experience gain, chests and objects to loot and possibly even skill points if it's good enough), and non-cannon quests (those that don't pass the vetting process and are considered 'for fun', with a small randomly generated item at the end and gold).

The vetting process, which could be handled on PTS or by the community, is important. As Neverwinter Online exhibited, many players are intent on creating methods to cheat the system, either through easy grinds or mass loot options, etc. Because of this, the vast majority of player-generated quests would have to be 'just for fun'.


What about voice acting?

Non-essential, if you ask me. Though if ESO found some really great quests, voice acting could be added. Or they could offer this up to the community, of which many have contributed great voice acting to some Oblivion and Skyrim mods.


Too long, didn't read

If you want infinite content, give it to the players. We're bored, we're creative, and we're as invested (if not more so) into Elder Scrolls as the developers themselves.

I got to agree that would be pretty bada** but, I don't know how it could work in a MMO setting. I mean they would have to regulate everything everyone submits, and I doubt zeni would want to put that much effort into looking at every persons construction set submission.

They could manage it much the same way as moderators on the forum. Add to that a red flag system then hey presto. Having played Neverwinter I can say that abusive content is rare. It's the exploiters you need to watch.

But once you have a community within the player made content they will pretty much look after it themselves, using the flag system. The idea being is anyone can red flag player made content and then a mod will follow up. Anyone abusing the flag system will be added to an ignore list without even knowing it. Jobs a good un.

Tabbycat

The modding community for Skyrim is huge (as is the one for Morrowind, and probably Oblivion too). But there's so much potential for abuse with implementing the construction set in an MMO. There would have to be rules implemented, stuff would have to be tested before it could be added into the game, and you'd need a group of developers to make sure everything is balanced and blends well with the core game. I don't think it would be quite as easy to do as you might think.

Arsenic_Touch

As long as players could only design things, and not alter mechanics, it could work. They could run contests as well. They can have set criteria for resolution on aesthetics so we can design our own armor but not bog down other players. Set limits in creation sets so it doesn't interfere with in game mechanics. They could seriously foster a wonderful community out of such a system.

Hell, they can provide the bare essentials of a zone and let players finish it and then they take the player's work and mmoify it. I could see a system like that working wonders, but it will never happen in this day and age, especially with this game.

Istyar

People have to admit that ESO is a MMO and not a single player TES game. This will never be implemented.

Ser Lobo

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

As long as players could only design things, and not alter mechanics, it could work. They could run contests as well. They can have set criteria for resolution on aesthetics so we can design our own armor but not bog down other players. Set limits in creation sets so it doesn't interfere with in game mechanics. They could seriously foster a wonderful community out of such a system.

Hell, they can provide the bare essentials of a zone and let players finish it and then they take the player's work and mmoify i. I could see a system like that working wonders, but it will never happen in this day and age, especially with this game.

I agree completely with all you said, except for that last part.

I think, of ALL games, it could happen with this one. Even developers have to realize that a month of building a toolset and the mechanics to support it, could turn into years of content generation that doesn't require a lot of development oversight.

The selling points are huge. Elder Scrolls games are known to be in-line with it. Elder Scrolls' playerbase are some of the most competent and diehard modders out there. And ESO lore is particularly suited for it.

ArRashid

If you guys think you should do dev's job for free, I don't mind.

But 99% mods don't have any "standards" and the game could VERY quickly turn out to be hideous mix of 13925203984 different art styles and so on. I've seen what it can do to Skyrim, and I had enough of that..

KariTR

Sturmwaffel wrote: »

Even so, Neverwinter did have a unique "Foundry quest builder" mechanic. However that only turned into one guy building a fast 15-minute quest (minimum time for daily quest) and everybody speed running it.

What a way to rubbish the many, many splendid Foundry authors who spent months creating some wonderful stories for us to play through

billp_ESO

I loved how Ryzom did it with the Ryzom Ring. You created scenarios and then could either play along with people when they did it, or be the invisible dungeon master to watch and interact with them as they play it.

Couple of basic rules are needed:
- no loot, except what the DM hands out from his own inventory. You can give rewards to players, but no loot drops
- no XP, so people can't create a simple farming situation to get XP. However, I used to hand out XP pots to players, the number based on how well they solved my scenarios.

Tannakaobi

KariTR wrote: »

Sturmwaffel wrote: »

Even so, Neverwinter did have a unique "Foundry quest builder" mechanic. However that only turned into one guy building a fast 15-minute quest (minimum time for daily quest) and everybody speed running it.

What a way to rubbish the many, many splendid Foundry authors who spent months creating some wonderful stories for us to play through

Indeed. I was one of those authors. I made a campaign over multiple quests and a number of solo quests, even came third in a competition and got a quest featured with a advert video to boot. Which I will shamelessly link.

The Neverwinter foundry was so good is so many ways, my only complaint is that it was too limited. No nodes, no bosses and very linear story boards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63YIoZbyfxE

CheesyDaedra

Make something like the steam workshop, wehere players can submit their creations and wait for developer approval to be implemented in the game.

AlienSlof

And all I want is to retexture horses...

Ser Lobo

AlienSlof wrote: »

And all I want is to retexture horses...

Honestly, client-based retextures (as in, things only you can see) shouldn't be too terribly difficult to do.

I can't do it, don't get me wrong. But I've seen it done in many other MMO's.

nerevarine1138

An editor on that scale is opening a huge can of worms. You think complaints about bots were bad before? Wait until average players can just hack the game through the editing tool.

Yes, ZO could try and regulate which stuff got in, but the fact is that opening up the software like that is inviting a ton of malicious programming in to the mix.

Ser Lobo

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

An editor on that scale is opening a huge can of worms. You think complaints about bots were bad before? Wait until average players can just hack the game through the editing tool.

Yes, ZO could try and regulate which stuff got in, but the fact is that opening up the software like that is inviting a ton of malicious programming in to the mix.

It's possible to scale it down. The construction set and creation kits we got with Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim were already scaled down versions of what the developers used, not exactly allowing us full control, but much more than any other toolkit out at the time.

A toolkit which allows you to place objects, but only in new world instances (not in standard world environments), without being able to change world values? Not an impossible task.

The coding required to allow players to pull from files on their hard drives, separate from standard game files, is already in place with addons. What this would require is a door (doesn't need anything more fancy), that allows you to enter one of your client-based addons. You're character, their server, but nothing earned in this 'amateur' mods would be taken back to the world. Maybe a chest when you exit.

Any really good addons, ZOS can pull and incorporate more fully into the game world. For an addon designer, this is sometimes the end goal ... to create something so immersive it becomes part of the game itself. Kinda like what we did with modular housing in Oblivion, only to see it used by devs in Skyrim years later.

nerevarine1138

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

An editor on that scale is opening a huge can of worms. You think complaints about bots were bad before? Wait until average players can just hack the game through the editing tool.

Yes, ZO could try and regulate which stuff got in, but the fact is that opening up the software like that is inviting a ton of malicious programming in to the mix.

It's possible to scale it down. The construction set and creation kits we got with Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim were already scaled down versions of what the developers used, not exactly allowing us full control, but much more than any other toolkit out at the time.

A toolkit which allows you to place objects, but only in new world instances (not in standard world environments), without being able to change world values? Not an impossible task.

The coding required to allow players to pull from files on their hard drives, separate from standard game files, is already in place with addons. What this would require is a door (doesn't need anything more fancy), that allows you to enter one of your client-based addons. You're character, their server, but nothing earned in this 'amateur' mods would be taken back to the world. Maybe a chest when you exit.

Any really good addons, ZOS can pull and incorporate more fully into the game world. For an addon designer, this is sometimes the end goal ... to create something so immersive it becomes part of the game itself. Kinda like what we did with modular housing in Oblivion, only to see it used by devs in Skyrim years later.

I'm going to go ahead and create an original dungeon that's entirely populated with skeevers and aspect runes. Farm, rinse, repeat. And that's completely ignoring the potential available to me if I'm any good with code.

Again, it sounds really nice in theory, but in practice, it will lead to cheating.