Vengeance of the Oppressed - what's the moral thing to do?

jesterstear

Spoilers!

As you enter the city of Ebonheart, you meet a pair of former Argonian slaves.

Their egg-sister was worked to death on the Volek family plantation, and they want to complete their revenge by killing the last surviving member of the family, Betina.

Her father was killed when the slaves rose up, and her mother was killed some years later by the Argonians when she attempted to return to the ancestral home.

Now they plan to ambush her daughter when she does the same.

Do you warn her of the ambush (Betina Lives) or keep schtum (Betina Dies).

I ended up helping Betina because the Argonians seemed to be taking their revenge too far. Betina is young, was she directly responsible for the slavery?

She talks of her family's poor reputation, of closure and gives no sign of harbouring hatred or supporting slavery... then upon turning the quest in, she reveals her true colours. She wants to restore the family wealth, looks forward to the end of the "unnatural" pact so they can return to the "old way" of farming!

Should have left her to die then right?

jesterstear

I've actually abandoned the quest without claiming the reward and am planning to redo it, siding with the Argonians. It's kind of hard to lead her into that trap though..

edit... well I did it and helped them kill her.

Perhaps the only moral choice is not to accept the quest at all.

Anvos

Honestly this is a no win quest where your doing something that is at best morally gray regardless, but saving the dunmer is probably the better thing for the Pact, since Argonians killing dunmer in a dunmer city puts the blame on the argonians.

Plus the argonians are the ones who the responsibility to walk away falls upon, considering it is her house.

jesterstear

Here's part of the storyboard. When you first talk to Betina, she introduces herself as the last of the Voleks, and asks if the name means anything to you. Reply "No" and she says,



note - "My family's been involved in things I'm not proud of"

"How come you came to be the last of the Voleks?"



"Why have you returned to Mournhold?"



note - "I was so little then, but I promised I would return"

"What can I do"



You're given two chances to warn her about the ambush, a second one outside the home. If you keep quiet a second time, she says something like ,

"So you're in on this too then? I know about the ambush. Well, I can't hide forever. I'm going inside the house"

I was under the impression you'd just wave her off then leave the Argonians to do the deed, but you actually have to go inside and help them kill her. Afterwards , they reward you with clothing from her dead body -

jesterstear

I actually had a bad dream about this quest and have felt weird about this all day at work !

As you can see in the storyboard above, she very much looks like the victim, and appears to disapprove of her parents actions. But after completing the quest on her side, she expresses a hope that the ban on slavery will be repealed so that she can keep slaves again. It appears her earlier statements were simply a manipulation. I was angry. Pretty stupid of her to reveal this really, why couldn't she keep her little lie to her self till after i'd gone, then I can walk away feeling i'd done the right thing?

So, I cancelled and redid the quest , siding with the Argonians. I thought this would just mean escorting her to her house and letting them do the deed out of sight and mind.

Having to pass up two chances to save her THEN her revealing that she knew all along was a shock. Credit to the acting here, she doesn't sound angry, just accepts her fate in a very resigned tone of voice. Finally, you have to actually participate in the gang killing of Betina. And you get rewarded with her personal effects !

Anvos wrote: »

Honestly this is a no win quest where your doing something that is at best morally gray regardless, but saving the dunmer is probably the better thing for the Pact, since Argonians killing dunmer in a dunmer city puts the blame on the argonians.

.

I need to learn to stop clicking and just cancel quests like this. It's like that famous experiment they did, getting people to administer electric shocks to people under the instructions of scientists (faked, but the subjects don't know that) and the shockers didn't question authority or stop to think what they were doing, they just went along with it.

I chose to kill Betina because I thought I was preventing a future evil - her keeping slaves - forgetting that it would only come to pass if the Pact breaks, which we know it will not. There's even a slim chance she'd have a change of heart over the years. So I'm commiting murder to prevent a crime which has not yet taken place and in fact will not take place.

On the other hand, if you side with Betina, rather than commiting premeditated murder, you simply act as her bodyguard and end up killing the argonians in self defence. However unpleasant you think she may be, that's the right thing to do, yes?

Anvos wrote: »

Plus the argonians are the ones who the responsibility to walk away falls upon, considering it is her house

On this point I am not convinced. That house, all her family's wealth came from the Argonian slaves. Morally she has no right to reclaim it. She is clearly a talented mage, surely she can find some other way to maintain at least a modest living.

On the other hand, the Argonians would hunt her down even if she chose not to reclaim the house.

Pendrillion

Well actually thats probably why I like ESO. Its not just black and white... Good and Evil. I like that they break with the obvious "Right thing to do" dualistic tendencies. I really would love to have some sort of Analysis about the choices you did through the quests. An ingame consequence of sort. Or maybe a narrative that puts things a bit into perspective. But... yeah such is life. EVERYONE has an Agenda in this game. Those who claim to be the most pure and righteous are usually the worst... And sometimes the killers are killers. But with a reason. Still I don't like it that there is often no way than to kill someone, or drop the quest.

But I guess those are intrinsic realities of the gameworld. To play this, you have to become part of the game and its set of rules. Its pretty much like the real world? Isn't it?

Infidelzombie

Just found this quest working on Cadwell's Silver...would have liked to see the more Mass Effect/Dragon Age (or even Skyrim?) -style third path where you sometimes are able to talk someone out of murder or reconcile opponents rather than making a binary choice.

But I appreciate ESO's effort at depicting moral gray areas in their quest plots.

I previously dropped the entire Thizzrini Arena questline when I decided "I really don't want or need to kill all these people. They are not my enemies." Fictional people though they may be.

Dave2836

Too bad we can't kill the argonians either. I do like the moral ambiguity though.

vegecannibal

jesterstear wrote: »

I chose to kill Betina because I thought I was preventing a future evil - her keeping slaves - forgetting that it would only come to pass if the Pact breaks, which we know it will not. There's even a slim chance she'd have a change of heart over the years. So I'm commiting murder to prevent a crime which has not yet taken place and in fact will not take place.

On the other hand, if you side with Betina, rather than commiting premeditated murder, you simply act as her bodyguard and end up killing the argonians in self defence. However unpleasant you think she may be, that's the right thing to do, yes?

I disagree with both points, first off, Slavery is in fact legal in Morrowind in the 3rd era, so killing her would prevent her family from ever returning to the slave trade, even if it is generations down the line.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Slavery
"Slavery was once widespread throughout Tamriel, whether it was the practice of using defeated enemies as slaves or selling your own children to combat hunger, and the Dunmer have raided Black Marsh for slaves for ages. Since the advent of the Third Era, slavery was illegal throughout the Empire, but protected by law in Morrowind. This exception was granted by Tiber Septim in the Armistice of 2E 896 as a concession to the Dunmer, who saw the use of slaves as their ancient right."

(I Haven't played through siding with her, but I assume you kill the argonians for her.)

Secondly, calling what you do when you side with her "Self-Defence" takes some serious bending of reason, you know that she is going to be attacked, and by agreeing to act as her bodyguard you are agreeing to kill people who are attacking her, whom you have previous knowledge of. It's like running into a store that is being robbed just so you can kill the person robbing it and claim self defence, which is psychotic.

Either way you end up just being a contracted killer.

ConvictedRambo

Why worry about moral choices? Just give me the experience.

Xvorg

On moral decisions, I like "Crimes of the past" in Rivenspire. Well writen and acted

Stories-Bones-Tell

The only thing that matters is what the rewards are.

Enodoc

Stories-Bones-Tell wrote: »

The only thing that matters is what the rewards are.

@Stories-Bones-Tell So what happens when the tangible rewards are the same? (As they nearly always are in ESO)

Aro247

jesterstear wrote: »

Spoilers!

As you enter the city of Ebonheart, you meet a pair of former Argonian slaves.

Their egg-sister was worked to death on the Volek family plantation, and they want to complete their revenge by killing the last surviving member of the family, Betina.

Her father was killed when the slaves rose up, and her mother was killed some years later by the Argonians when she attempted to return to the ancestral home.

Now they plan to ambush her daughter when she does the same.

Do you warn her of the ambush (Betina Lives) or keep schtum (Betina Dies).

I ended up helping Betina because the Argonians seemed to be taking their revenge too far. Betina is young, was she directly responsible for the slavery?

She talks of her family's poor reputation, of closure and gives no sign of harbouring hatred or supporting slavery... then upon turning the quest in, she reveals her true colours. She wants to restore the family wealth, looks forward to the end of the "unnatural" pact so they can return to the "old way" of farming!

Should have left her to die then right?

This is the way I see it. Betina might not be proud of her parents owning slaves. This is noted when she talks about her family's poor reputation. Or maybe she is just lying because socially she doesn't want to sound like a psycho since there are some Argonians in the bar when you talk to her. She states she wants her family house back since it was a promise she had made to her parents. Even though it really isn't hers since the wealth accumulated was from slavery. When completing the quest for her she states she looks forward to the end of the pact so they can return to owning slaves. But! What if she is only saying this because she knew the Argonians were tailing her trying to kill her. Maybe she really doesn't believe or want to enslave the Argonians its just that in the moment she is upset that the Argonians can't let go of something her parents did. If you side with the Argonians she knows her fate and accepts it as if they have been tailing her for years and she has just given up. Either side you choose you are agreeing to premeditated murder. To me it seems that the Argonians are taking it too far they seem to have followed her for years murdered her family and now trying to murder her even tho she was a child when this all occurred. Maybe this is why she states she would return to enslaving Argonians. Or maybe she really is planning on owning slaves again. There really is no right choice I'm just giving some insight.

BennyButton

i helped her because she was cute and clearly flirted with me to get her way

ankhor8

This is the best spoiler have come across.
First, will state that i'm a very pro-Saxhleel Saxhleel. Yet my perspectives are strict and maintained.
When these Saxhleel called to me, I gladly gave my attention. When they proposed attacking the offspring of an opponent that was not attacking, I told them goodbye and they've been calling me ever since. We are not a hateful people, we do care about balance and protection. We guard viciously overtly or covertly. Since she was no longer a threat, our way is to allow her to flow down river.
Now learning from this post that she aspires to oppress my marsh kin further, I am looking forward to killing her this evening. It'll be one of the first tasks today. May even broadcast it. All opposition earn a quick trip to the void.
Kota-Sax-Blood

BashMegaMoth

Kill the damned dunmer, all of them!

Toophat82

The way i see it she was a child when this all happened and both parents already paid for it with their lives and no child should be judged or responsible for thier parents past misdeeds or crimes. These argonians at this point are blinded by vengeance and going too far as there has been enough death and blood shed already. Two wrongs don't make a right and the right thing would be to make peace and help guide her on right path so that she and the next generation of Voleks strives to make up for past and learn to do better and not become like her parents.

Now whether or not how morally wrong slavery is it was once legal and a normal practice for many cultures not just dunmer so no culture has a perfect past or the moral high ground when it comes to slavery or their history period every culture has been responsible for things they not proud of you can only learn from it and strive for better in future.

Now about wealth when they accumulated their weatlh it was legal unlike murder which is always wrong as we don't go around murdering people just because we don't like or agree with their morals. So in the end she still has the right and claim to the wealth her parents left her regardless if we morally don't agree with how they got it it was still accumlated legally during an era where such a thing was common and allowed. Also as far as her comments after its completed she obviously gonna be mad about those argonians trying to go to wipe out her whole family bloodline and not be as sympathetic toward argonians who are trying to wipe out her family as hate and vengeance only breeds more of it.

Now regardless of her final words to you she seems to be someone abides by whatever is law and her hopes mean nothing as the pact can instead stay strong, slavery remain banned forever, and she can also have a change of heart and come to her senses over a time where slavery is no longer accepted or common practice and argonians and dunmer are actually learning to coexsist freely and peacefully.

Bighits

Since my character is an Argonian, the choice was simple. Gotta back the brothas. The cooch had to die.

TelvanniWizard

The moral choice depends on you. For me it was simple: How dare those filthy argonians attack a lovely dunmer? Now she is safe. And they are dead. An argonian never should ask help from a telvanni when it comes to damage other dunmer (with no clear profit, of course).

Castagere

I find the replies here amusing. It really is all about you as a human being. If your ok with slavery then side with the slaver if not help kill her and be done with it. Notice how she likes to play the victim and how guilty she feels and some of you by that BS. You guys are feeling sorry for her and not the slaves.

Hippie4927

I think the 'moral' choice is to warn Betina because being involved in a murder is always morally wrong. Once you have taken the moral highground, what the others do afterwards, is on them. That being said, my character is not a moral person and chose to murder her!

manta_ghost

I took the rp stance as an argonian intending to mediate between the two sides upon entering, did not draw my weapons. The dunnmer girl attacked my bear first and it defended itself. I tried to cast healing spells but no one would listen to reason so she fell under the bear's claws while her body guard fought with the argonians. I tried to break up the fight and the body guard attacked me and I summoned an ice shield in defense. The body guard died because she would not listen and kept fighting ,again I did not draw a weapon against them only defended myself with an ice shield.

fierackas

As a dunmer I sided with her and now have a nice new pair of crocodile shoes

Bluedragonark

I sided with my own people, the Argonians, and I got a level up from this quest too.

SeaWoodStage

My initial thought was to warn Betina because as horrible as her family was, it wasn't her fault, and murdering her for revenge seemed excessive. But then I did the quest, and she turned out to be manipulative and arrogant, so I abandoned it and did it again, siding with the argonians. Not that I think they're completely in the right, but given what I knew from the first time around, I thought they had the better claim.

And you never know - maybe they'll think "Gosh, murdering someone was actually pretty terrible. Maybe we'll rethink our revenge strategy." Or maybe they'll just feel better, and get closure. Better either of those than a nasty little elitist who wants to bring back slavery.

Personally I'm not a fan of these sneaky little quests that turn around on you at the last minute. I'm all for difficult choices in games, but to make them truly difficult, you need to know the characters and their viewpoints beforehand. Going through with a choice and then getting information that wasn't telegraphed beforehand is just annoying and sloppy.