Discussion on Skill and Attribute Point Reset Costs

nokomo109b14_ESO

I'm sure that this has been talked about before, but I would like to initiate a discussion on the cost of resetting skill and attribute points.

Currently, it costs 100 gold for each point that needs resetting, and all points are reset at once for either skills or attributes, depending on which shrine is used.

Personally, I give great consideration to the placement of my skill points. I ask myself two questions, coming from the perspective primarily of someone interested in PvE (solo and group) and role play:

1. Where can I place each point so that my experience will be fun and reasonably challenging?
2. Which skills and attributes best reflect the personality and ability of the character whose story I am exploring?

This has worked out very well for me. While I am not happy with every choice I have made, I chalk it up to being a learning experience and continue to develop the character in which I have already invested. However, I recently invited some friends to play the game with me - and these friends have ways of viewing the skill and attribute point system that are very different from my own.

One friend started playing as a Nightblade with the intention of creating a stealthy archer. He carefully chose his abilities and attributes, but after giving the concept some time he was still unsatisfied with how well it played. Competitive by nature, with interests in PvE (group) and PvP, he was seeking to prove his skill against others. He didn't feel that the bow skills had the kind of synergy he wanted with the Nightblade skills; ultimately, we ran all the way out to Mournhold so that he could reset his skills before it became too expensive, and since then he has been happier.

My friend has veered away from his original character concept and moved towards finding the skills that will make the "best" possible Nightblade in various situations. He feels that there are many builds worth trying, but we have to ask - what is the design goal of a system that encourages flexibility, yet seems to punish players for attempting to judge a build by trying it out?

Two other friends are almost purely interested in end game PvE (group) content, but are relatively unfamiliar with ESO and with the Elder Scrolls games in general. I am often asked, "What is the best way to do this? How do you know what abilities and attributes to choose? Which class should I be if I want to be a (role goes here)?"

I never know quite what to say. I want to tell them to try things out. I want to tell them to build a character that emphasizes the strengths and covers the weaknesses of their play styles and gaming abilities, but I'm not sure if that's reasonable at the current cost.

Questions I have:

• Would the game benefit from giving lower-level players a grace period for resetting skill and attribute points?
• Does the current cost of resetting skill and attributes encourage diversity, or limit it?
• Has a scaling cost for skill and attribute point resets been considered (the more times points are reset within a time frame, the more it costs to reset the points again)?
• If the game were to keep the current cost for resetting skill and attribute points, why not minimize the cost by allowing players to remove individual points?

I'd love to hear your perspective on this issue.

Haewk

I am all for removing individual points. Saying that you need to consider the following situation.

Lets say I have leveled all my crafting skills to max. It will be much cheaper now for me to switch between crafts, lets say 1.5K as opposed to for instance 15K for 150 skill points.

Similarly, switching between weapons or armor types becomes much cheaper.

I am not sure what the design intent is and whether they see a big issue with players being able to do this. I have never understood why games discourage this especially when you have to make decisions without fully understanding the effects of the decision (without extensive meta-gaming, ie googling).

How are you supposed to know whether the skill point cost of a hireling justifies what the hireling delivers? You need to commit 3 points to it and then you need to pay an astronomical amount of gold if you decide it is not worth it.

How are you supposed to tell whether to take the additional armor or additional damage morph as a low level tank when you only realize at higher levels that the additional armor will be largely wasted as it is very easy to overcap armor but the damage won't be wasted?

Additionally:

The development cost of creating the interface and logic for refunding individual points will push this to the back burner considering the other issues players are having I'm sure.

KamikazeTMX

ye man i have spend lotsa gold already on changing my first char failed nord class NB 2h heavy amror specc... and i again must again change because i made a little mistake by clicking on a skill i dindt want because after the big patch everything is slow on reaction that i missclickted something.. this game punish you on almost everything if the class race and skill use you wanna to do doesnt match ... and then you must pay for the *** reset of your mana stanima and hp tooo.. im like im getting punished to much in this game... i feel it like a big fail!!

KamikazeTMX

luckly rift doesnt punish that, and atleast you can get gold or plat out of stuff without too much running around... but in eso everything goes slow. i dont mind the lvling slow but getting gold for skill changes is soo irritating me

mr_stealth_b14_ESO

The skill reset cost was one of the major factors in my decision to let by sub lapse. I'm a huge fan of build experimenting in MMOs/RPGs, and ESO simply does not allow for that. I hate looking up builds that other people have made or going with meta builds, so this system became very annoying for me.

By the time my sorcerer got to level 30, I was to a point where I had made some regrettable skill choices. I was overall happy with my passives and attributes, but I had more than a few points wasted in skills. I wasn't having a lot of difficultly, but I knew I could make a better build. I would have been happy to remove/reset 10 or so points to try out some skills that might have been better choices. But with the all or nothing system, resetting my skillpoints would have meant being broke.

I ended up looking up some info/opinions of skills, since the info ingame is rather lacking. I found that some skills I had ignored were actually very good when morphed, and that there were some nice synergies hidden in morphs. What I got out of the researching was a bit more effective without having to pay for a reset, even if it did still need a few more skillpoints/skill leveling. The problem was that what I had pieced together wasn't a playstyle I really wanted, and the fact that the game's mechanics pretty much forced me to look up something instead of experimenting just discouraged me from playing.

In the end, a game that doesn't allow me to experiment and create my own build isn't a game I want to continue playing. The freedom is certainly there, but the cost of using it totally counteracts its viability. I wanted a game to play, not spending hours digging through forum posts and playing with build calculators (that often only show base/unleveled skill stats).

jeevin

I'm just shy off 20k required for my skills to reset. I've been wanting to respec and try some new builds but the need to spend 20k just to experiment is silly. I don't know why there isn't a way we can play for rather than pay for skill reset. Like as a dungeon or boss loot reward. It could be a once per day/week account bound reward to prevent farming.
There needs to be another option.

nokomo109b14_ESO

To save space, I've picked out pieces that I wanted to discuss.

Haewk wrote: »

Lets say I have leveled all my crafting skills to max. It will be much cheaper now for me to switch between crafts, lets say 1.5K as opposed to for instance 15K for 150 skill points.

How are you supposed to know whether the skill point cost of a hireling justifies what the hireling delivers? You need to commit 3 points to it and then you need to pay an astronomical amount of gold if you decide it is not worth it.

The development cost of creating the interface and logic for refunding individual points will push this to the back burner considering the other issues players are having I'm sure.

Actually, I wasn't thinking about crafting when I wrote the original post, but I can see your point. From one standpoint, it felt gratifying to be able to earn new abilities in a trade over time, instead of being able to be a master of everything. From another, it would be nice to "fire" some hirelings in favor of "hiring" others. Personally, I chose to have individual characters focus on one or two trades instead of having a crafting/bank character.

As far as development costs go, I agree that something like this could take a while; however, I disagree in that I think this issue affects most, if not all, players and should not be put on the back burner simply due to the fact that it is helping to turn people away from the game.

KamikazeTMX wrote: »

i made a little mistake by clicking on a skill i dindt want because after the big patch everything is slow on reaction that i missclickted something.

im like im getting punished to much in this game... i feel it like a big fail!!

I can see how accidentally clicking the wrong thing could be very frustrating. It would be nice to have to "lock in" skill point choices before leaving the screen, like you do with attribute points.

I want to clarify that I didn't start this discussion with the intention of heralding the doom of ESO. I'm still very happy with the game overall and have decided to continue playing, but thought it would be worthwhile to hear the experiences and perspectives of a variety of players on the issue.

KamikazeTMX wrote: »

luckly rift doesnt punish that, and atleast you can get gold or plat out of stuff without too much running around... but in eso everything goes slow. i dont mind the lvling slow but getting gold for skill changes is soo irritating me

I was so very happy that I started the game with a horse for every character. I don't even care that we all have white horses. Horses are crazy expensive, and I like to use my gold for other things, mostly bag upgrades. Don't even get me started on bank and inventory space upgrade costs - although I'm very glad the bank is shared between all of my characters for a number of reasons.

mr_stealth_b14_ESO wrote: »

I hate looking up builds that other people have made or going with meta builds, so this system became very annoying for me.

But with the all or nothing system, resetting my skillpoints would have meant being broke.

I ended up looking up some info/opinions of skills, since the info ingame is rather lacking. I found that some skills I had ignored were actually very good when morphed, and that there were some nice synergies hidden in morphs. What I got out of the researching was a bit more effective without having to pay for a reset, even if it did still need a few more skillpoints/skill leveling. The problem was that what I had pieced together wasn't a playstyle I really wanted, and the fact that the game's mechanics pretty much forced me to look up something instead of experimenting just discouraged me from playing.

In the end, a game that doesn't allow me to experiment and create my own build isn't a game I want to continue playing. The freedom is certainly there, but the cost of using it totally counteracts its viability. I wanted a game to play, not spending hours digging through forum posts and playing with build calculators (that often only show base/unleveled skill stats).

First of all, let me say that I'm glad there's another person out there that doesn't necessarily want to play the meta. I've always played the meta with group content for other multiplayer games or MMOs - especially with competitive friends - but on my own, sometimes I just want to do what feels fun. That's where a different reset system would come in handy, considering that I do indeed have competitive friends that are only interested in the meta.

Not to mention that some of the in-game information is wrong, because some things aren't working as intended. I know that these kinds of fixes are made all the time, but abilities that aren't working as intended still end up feeling like "wrong" choices and are ultimately taken off the bar.

I don't mind looking things up and making informed choices when it comes to playing with other people, but it would be nice to not have to stop for ten minutes every time I get a new point.

jeevin wrote: »

I'm just shy off 20k required for my skills to reset. I've been wanting to respec and try some new builds but the need to spend 20k just to experiment is silly. I don't know why there isn't a way we can play for rather than pay for skill reset. Like as a dungeon or boss loot reward. It could be a once per day/week account bound reward to prevent farming.
There needs to be another option.

Ouch. 20k...just...ouch.

I love your idea, though. Implementing an item to cover skill and point reset costs seems like a good solution, one that could be taken in many directions. Anyone else want to expand on this idea?

Adramelach

In my own case, it's not so much the cost (though I agree it's ridiculously high, given the "play as you like" mantra) but the hassle and work involved. I have only a few points I'd love to re-allocate (like the now-wasted point in Bolt Escape and such), but the thought of having to completely re-do *everything* for the sake of a point or two makes it just not worth it.

I can live with a few points being sunk in now-obsolete or off-build places, but it's annoying to not be able to apply "finishing touches" to my sorcerer at V1 that I hadn't anticipated at level 3.

hamon

its just another bad decision by a company that seems unable to think things thro.

it should be capped at say 10k no more than that.. my next one will be over 25k probably when they next patch hits and they break some thing

Cogo

hamon wrote: »

its just another bad decision by a company that seems unable to think things thro.

it should be capped at say 10k no more than that.. my next one will be over 25k probably when they next patch hits and they break some thing

Are you every happy about anything else then gives you more power for free, or free stuff?

I think the price should be higher now when its easier to get gold in the game.
Most people can open every chest by now.

The reason for respecing being costly, is so you only do it if you have/want too.
Every skillpoint is valueble and should be considered carefully before applying it. NOT by following some guide, by following what YOU think.

Thats the whole idea about the game btw.

And for people who likes to try different things. You have 8 character slots. They cost you nothing to try a new build with.

I wonder if there would ever be a post saying, hmm.....I think I want to respec here, but really, so cheap? Then I can respec once a month and be a different character in Tamriel every month?

Noooo. Its to expensive! I think no matter what the price was.....the price would be to high.

I say raise it!

mr_stealth_b14_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

The reason for respecing being costly, is so you only do it if you have/want too.
Every skillpoint is valueble and should be considered carefully before applying it. NOT by following some guide, by following what YOU think.

Thats the whole idea about the game btw.

And for people who likes to try different things. You have 8 character slots. They cost you nothing to try a new build with.

I can't think of a good reason why being locked into a decision is better. Perhaps from a roleplaying perspective, but that is truly a minority of players and there is nothing stopping them from sticking to their choices on their own. Build experimentation and diversity is something all MMOs should be encouraging. Ridiculous restrictions like costly resets only encourage following guides and using only popular/meta builds.

And it is impossible to make an educated decision about skill/morph unlocks without looking up info, especially while still leveling. There is no way to see the morphs of skills that are still locked, which is a very important factor in deciding between morphs of your current skills. I'm not able to build skill synergies when I can't even see a large portion of my potential options.

As for using a character slot to try a new build. I can only hope that is not a serious suggestion, because it's more than a bit silly. Character slots are for trying new classes, or new class/race combinations. Not for spending tens of hours leveling just to try a few new skill morphs.

Cogo

mr_stealth_b14_ESO wrote: »

And it is impossible to make an educated decision about skill/morph unlocks without looking up info, especially while still leveling. There is no way to see the morphs of skills that are still locked, which is a very important factor in deciding between morphs of your current skills. I'm not able to build skill synergies when I can't even see a large portion of my potential options.

You are wrong. I am proof myself. I wanted to build a heavy tank. Maybe not the fastest and much magika, but everything in defense, so I would be able to block a big attack from a giant.

Now I learned I can move for it as well.

ALL skills have a description. Numbers are unimportant because they more then likely will be changed, since this is a skill based game. Balancing is a constant, and at one point or another ALL skills will be looked at.

So the number is pointless, but not the effect. And I am sorry if you do not know the morph, but you DO know the skill, and both morphs have something to do with that specific skill.

Also, you do not ONLY get a skill for the morph effect. You get it for the skill.
Some skills I do not morph.....

And Sir. I tank pretty damn well, just reached lvl 50.

YES, you do need to think about it, imagine what you want or need to use. And you do learn that while you are playing. unless you sit at the same spot, clicking the 2 same attacks over and over for 5 hours....

mr_stealth_b14_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

You are wrong. I am proof myself. I wanted to build a heavy tank. Maybe not the fastest and much magika, but everything in defense, so I would be able to block a big attack from a giant.

Now I learned I can move for it as well.

ALL skills have a description. Numbers are unimportant because they more then likely will be changed, since this is a skill based game. Balancing is a constant, and at one point or another ALL skills will be looked at.

So the number is pointless, but not the effect. And I am sorry if you do not know the morph, but you DO know the skill, and both morphs have something to do with that specific skill.

Also, you do not ONLY get a skill for the morph effect. You get it for the skill.
Some skills I do not morph.....

Something working out in the end for you is not proof that I (or anyone else) am wrong. The simple fact of the matter is that the game does not show you the necessary information to make a fully informed decision, then proceeds to charge a large amount of gold to fix those choices later. I am not referring to the numbers in the skill. I am referring to the fact that you cannot see the options you will have with skill morphs until that skill is unlocked and leveled.

I cannot (with ingame info) make an informed decision about a skill morph of a level 20 skill until that line has reached level 42. Yet, when that level 20 skill has been used enough to be morphed, the game encourages you to do so. You are prompted to morph it by the skill interface, and tempted to do so by the improved versions of the skill. Either choice you make at that time is going to be an improvement to that skill and your build. But you have no way of knowing (without outside info) which choice is better in the long run for your build/playstyle, because you have no way to knowing what future skill morphs, interactions, and synergies will be available as you continue leveling that skill line. And the morph you want later, might actually a poor choice now. So, you are left with either having a skill that later needs reset, or left with a poor morph until that higher level skill synergy can be unlocked.

There are indeed skills that I unlocked primarily, if not entirely, for one of their morph effects. Had I not looked up out of game info about those skills, they would have remained locked till some point in the future when I had skill points to spare for experimentation.

It is also worth noting that for many of us, these decisions were made at a time when information was not as readily available. Or when info was likely taken from beta and could have changed in the release version. Even now, a decision made at level 15 can be based on skill morphs that change before you unlock the other part of your planned synergy. And it is not only the numbers that can be looked at and changed. It is very likely that some skills or morphs will have complete overhauls at some point.

And if all of that isn't enough, you have the fact that a specific skill morph might not be appropriate for all situations. A decision that is good for solo'ing/leveling, might be bad for group play/dungeons. A decision that is good in pve, might be terrible for pvp.

There are just so many reasons why locking in skill decisions behind a costly barrier is a bad idea, and very few good things I can think of about it. It might have been the devs' original intention, and it might work out sometimes for some people (as it did for you), but neither of those are reasons for, or proof of, the restriction being a good idea.

[edit]
I think I should state that I don't think the lack of info in game is the real problem here. It is a minor annoyance, but I do think skill morphs should always be visible in the interface even for locked skills. The problem is the cost required to deal with those decisions later on. Even the cost of a full reset isn't the biggest issue, it's the fact that a full reset is the only option to fix a single morph. This could be fixed by either allowing morphs to be toggled, or allowing individual skill/morph resets.

blutstein

they should add a few options: Reset a skill line for 500-750 per point, reset a morph for 2500g or all points for 100g per point like it is - and it would be perfectly fine.

thorspark

blutstein wrote: »

they should add a few options: Reset a skill line for 500-750 per point, reset a morph for 2500g or all points for 100g per point like it is - and it would be perfectly fine.

I agree but would go a little different and give two new respec shrines :
- Morph respec : 200g per morph point - resets all your morphs
- Skill Line respec : 200g per skill point - resets one skill line

And the actual one which resets everything, for 100g per SP

Cogo

Why not make all respec free? And every mob drop 1000 gold. 2 motifs and 3 epics that you need?

Oh...no thats WoW.

nokomo109b14_ESO

blutstein wrote: »

they should add a few options: Reset a skill line for 500-750 per point, reset a morph for 2500g or all points for 100g per point like it is - and it would be perfectly fine.

I like the idea of having a few different reset options based on how extensive of a reset is needed. This could work for both lower level players and higher level players.

Cogo wrote: »

YES, you do need to think about it, imagine what you want or need to use. And you do learn that while you are playing. unless you sit at the same spot, clicking the 2 same attacks over and over for 5 hours....

Cogo wrote: »

Why not make all respec free? And every mob drop 1000 gold. 2 motifs and 3 epics that you need?

Oh...no thats WoW.

I am interested in your perspective. I don't want this thread to necessarily be focused on lowering the cost - I think that it is more meaningful to discuss the pros and cons of the design as a measure of its effectiveness.

I agree that the choices made should be meaningful in the long-term, and I don't want to see everyone constantly chasing the meta. Cookie cutter builds are boring, and I'm happy to see diversity in ESO. As I said in my first post, I am happy with creating builds that reflect individual characters, even if I find flaws in my builds later.

As you were building your character, did you rely on sources outside of the game, or did you use information from the tooltips? Do you believe that tooltips could be improved in order to better inform players before locking into choices?

As a veteran WoW player, I understand what you mean. Inflation in the game has gotten rather ridiculous. "Epics" don't feel all that epic anymore.

Cogo

nokomo109b14_ESO wrote: »

I am interested in your perspective. I don't want this thread to necessarily be focused on lowering the cost - I think that it is more meaningful to discuss the pros and cons of the design as a measure of its effectiveness.

I agree that the choices made should be meaningful in the long-term, and I don't want to see everyone constantly chasing the meta. Cookie cutter builds are boring, and I'm happy to see diversity in ESO. As I said in my first post, I am happy with creating builds that reflect individual characters, even if I find flaws in my builds later.

As you were building your character, did you rely on sources outside of the game, or did you use information from the tooltips? Do you believe that tooltips could be improved in order to better inform players before locking into choices?

As a veteran WoW player, I understand what you mean. Inflation in the game has gotten rather ridiculous. "Epics" don't feel all that epic anymore.

First, we where a few friends who made a guild on day one. If I learned anything about MMOs, is that a guild can make or break a game for you.
Guild with the right people and ABSOLUTELY NOT do invites to anyone. Each possible recruit had to spend quite some time with us before we invited them. They are still in the guild btw.

I even had a beta key which I choose not to use, to not ruin any experience for me. I dont use any addon, no googling, no outside source.
I do admit I ask others for advice. For what effect stamina attribute would do on this effect or something. This was how I decided to sacrifice 2 pieces of heavy aarmor and use 2 medium, for the stamina regen. Really needed that.

Already before I SAW the character screen for the first time....havent even seen that before I started the SECOND the servers where online on 5 days early access. I know what race and build I wanted. A CORE tank that can mitigate damage for a group. Good or bad, I had no clue, but that was and is what I feel is "me" playing.

I have followed ESO for about 1.5 year before release, but my interest was in features, what the core game was, was there and end game (I am a raider).

Took a while before I understood that ESO was its own kind of MMO. So I just had to explore it and see for myself. Following a guide is the worst thing you can do I think. Even if it guides you to the "best" things....you end up "working" and not playing!

I know of the freedom to choose whatever I wanted. And that the game isn't only story driven, but the long term plans for ESO was out, and quite clearly stated that Tamriel is a living world, which will change over time, but keep to its lore.

And of course that it was skills based, not class based. This I like a lot, because I want more options then I can pick. Even options I wouldnt pick, for diversity in Tamriel. I had enough of MMOs where its more a game with different popular classes. I tried to calculate how many "builds" which could be called classes but stopped that almost before I started. To many to even think about it.

I wanted a player experience, not another Class/quest, end raid. Did that several times over already.

Orc tank, Dk ended up to be my choice. Templar just seamed to much paladin like, and when I saw their 3 trees at launch, I saw they could do everything. I never liked to pick something that was better then others. I want to earn my respect and honor by my actions.

I looked at the skills, and picked accordingly to what I felt was the next step. I only looked at the tooltip. They described just fine what the skills and passives did. Not in numbers, but in general.

"Bow skill 1, shoots arrows, hurts target if you hit it."
Didnt really need more info then that.

The more I played, the better view I got what to pick next. I was always battling with which of the 6 skills I wanted, should I put THIS skill point on. And I did a few mistakes, skills I still have on me which I dont use. Even an ultimate, I don't use. But later when I learned about the journal, who included a skyshard tip...my explore included hunting skyshards as well!

Sure.....very time demanding thing and there where people who started when I did, who played as much as me, who where lvl 50 before I was lvl 15.

I did manage to nail doisha lvl 8 quest at lvl 12, BEFORE the nerf. Took me bloody 15 mins and I dont remember how many times I tried. Took all day more or less. From there I was sure I needed some more way to do damage, but how to slot them in the action bar and still be the CORE tank, I wanted to be.

I kept choosing skills and play style as I played. My first REAL big lesson was the first instanced dungeon. In pact its Fungul Grotto (or whats it called).

I was lucky, that my first group there was with my friends + someone we met. So we took our time to go through it. It really was like a mini raid!

Died loads, but got it in the end. Id say it was this encounter that gave me the most information what to focus on and what was important for me as a tank.

Then of course when I tried another instanced dungeon, I saw....eh....these are not even simular. Their are different, with different tactics, so I had to adapt.

Skills, passives I kept choosing by what I felt I was lacking, and what skill could improve my game. Still, I saw no problem with the tooltip, even if Zenimax is upgrading them to contain more info.

I changed to another ultimate at level 35-40 somewhere. A good 2 months or so in the game.

When you do play a lot. and run around all over a zone..over and over again to find a skyshards thats hidden behind a tree I keep passing for over 2 hours lol, I do encounter mobs to fight. Which teached me move, block, and even something I had no interest in, magika abilities. Self heal was nice, hehe.

At one point, I dont recall, I started more serious with the 2 tradeskills Id chosen from start. That was also a tricky thing, cause use the next skill point in the tradeskill, or morph the damage shield? Hmm.....

I learned as I went along. The more mistakes and wipes I had, the more I learned and know what skill to aim for. Since I liked to run around everywhere in every zone, I stumbled across on Quests where a skillpoint was one of the rewards. I had no idea what rewards where, but listening to every single quest, following em, and having the pleasure of seeing the difference in the races. How they act, talk....that alone made me want to find new quests.

Done some Vet level stuff. Havnt respeced yet, but I still have lots to see and craglorn might completely throw around my build. But until then, Im pretty decent now.

20 days from my last trait research in heavy armor chest. Few others in heavy armor. Got all skill points allocated in Blacksmiting and provisioning. Got all blue recipes, some purple, and mats enough for purples in bank, ready for Vet level encounters.

With the guild grown enough, and having members I am starting to call my friends, I do feel we are ready for the next step. Yesterday a guild group nailed not 1, but 4 undaunted achievements in the Vet dungeons.

Rome wasnt built in a day, but it was built, and lasted quite long. Thats my plan in building my character. I built it level by level. Skill by skill.

draxredd

I think skill morphs should be switchable on the fly at no cost once you have bought both with skill points

poodlemasterb16_ESO

I put maybe 300 hours and 4 chars into Skyrim before I made one I really liked. It's funny but I have ended up taking a similar path in ESO.

Anyway you can't best build your char without a lot of experimenting. I have seven useful ones. The last one I made, my Dunmer Battlemage is almost perfect. This is because I know a lot about the game now. It takes a while to figure it out because it's complex, and understanding the numbers is required. I guess the respec addresses this to some extent, but rolling a char you want from scratch, with knowledge is the best.

Taiminator

I don't mind the cost as much as the hassle of having to re-allocate every single skill point each time you want to try out a different morph. That's insane when you have over 260 skill points.

Please make individual skill/morph resets possible, even if it has to be at a high cost to keep up that silly type of gold sink. I do agree that gold sinks are necessary but this form is a bit infuriating. Give us more meaningful options to spend our gold instead of this.

reften

yeah...I wasted a ton of gold on skill point resets...don't waste the gold. You get so many skill points in this game, it just ends up no mattering.

I currently have nearly every skill for med armor, NB class, Bow, race skills, woodworking, clothing, enchanting, and provisioning maxed.

Things I did leave out are.

SPs for things in provisioning that deal with drink.
Crafting things that show off where nodes are...highlight them or whatever.

I've also dabbled in guild skills.

Currently sitting at 11 unspent skill points at VR5...and I see that # increasing

nokomo109b14_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

Rome wasnt built in a day, but it was built, and lasted quite long. Thats my plan in building my character. I built it level by level. Skill by skill.

I enjoyed reading this post. Thank you for sharing your point of view. This is the kind of viewpoint that I believe will extend the longevity of this game. The design will never be perfect, but I believe that the game brings in a truly unique experience and I would like to see that preserved.

draxredd wrote: »

I think skill morphs should be switchable on the fly at no cost once you have bought both with skill points

This is an interesting thought. I like the idea; I almost always have a hard time choosing between morphs. I realize that choosing different morphs could be helpful in different situations.

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

I put maybe 300 hours and 4 chars into Skyrim before I made one I really liked. It's funny but I have ended up taking a similar path in ESO.

Anyway you can't best build your char without a lot of experimenting. I have seven useful ones. The last one I made, my Dunmer Battlemage is almost perfect. This is because I know a lot about the game now. It takes a while to figure it out because it's complex, and understanding the numbers is required. I guess the respec addresses this to some extent, but rolling a char you want from scratch, with knowledge is the best.

I'm glad that you said this, because it reminds me of my Nightblade friend from the original post. The only reason he hasn't rerolled the character is because I didn't want to waste the Rings of Mara that I brought to the table. For that reason, he will probably reset his points a few times until he feels like he got it right. He's taken a very proactive effort to understanding how the abilities work and what kind of damage output they have in order to be a strong, solid character.

oren74 wrote: »

yeah...I wasted a ton of gold on skill point resets...don't waste the gold. You get so many skill points in this game, it just ends up no mattering.

I currently have nearly every skill for med armor, NB class, Bow, race skills, woodworking, clothing, enchanting, and provisioning maxed.

Things I did leave out are.

SPs for things in provisioning that deal with drink.
Crafting things that show off where nodes are...highlight them or whatever.

I've also dabbled in guild skills.

Currently sitting at 11 unspent skill points at VR5...and I see that # increasing

I had wondered about whether or not there would be unspent or unneeded skill points at veteran levels (at least until new content is released). With so many skyshards to find out in the world, I certainly don't feel a lack of skill points as I level up. Could it work, I wonder, to put an additional point into abilities that have two interesting morphs so that you could have access to both, but only one at a time?

GwaynLoki

While levelling my NB through veteran content I repeatedly had to respecc because I was trying to find a decently viable melee build. I ended up wasting about 120k on respeccs, leaving me completely broke when I reached VR 12.
My own fault? Sure. But the truth also is that you can never determine how well a build works before you tried it in combat. Sometimes you just need to switch one skill(in other games)/morph(in this game) to make a build successful.

Anyways, I shelved my NB since I am not willing to grind >20k just to be able to try ONE new build for PvP/VR-PvE - whether a ranged or a melee one. Those people saying "you can try skills at low levels (and waste less money)" forget how much VR content and difficulty changes game experience. A skill completely viable sub-50 can suddenly become extremely weak above level 50.

It's really a shame that this game seems to discourage experimenting with skills because in other games I really liked theorycrafting builds and trying them. In this game I just can't seem to afford that moneywise.

Aoifesan

thorspark wrote: »

blutstein wrote: »

they should add a few options: Reset a skill line for 500-750 per point, reset a morph for 2500g or all points for 100g per point like it is - and it would be perfectly fine.

I agree but would go a little different and give two new respec shrines :
- Morph respec : 200g per morph point - resets all your morphs
- Skill Line respec : 200g per skill point - resets one skill line

And the actual one which resets everything, for 100g per SP

Are you terrible at math or something? 200g per morph point (where easily half your skill points go) resetting all the morphs, is a minimal savings at best and the same exact cost at worst.

reften

Aoifesan wrote: »

thorspark wrote: »

blutstein wrote: »

they should add a few options: Reset a skill line for 500-750 per point, reset a morph for 2500g or all points for 100g per point like it is - and it would be perfectly fine.

I agree but would go a little different and give two new respec shrines :
- Morph respec : 200g per morph point - resets all your morphs
- Skill Line respec : 200g per skill point - resets one skill line

And the actual one which resets everything, for 100g per SP

Are you terrible at math or something? 200g per morph point (where easily half your skill points go) resetting all the morphs, is a minimal savings at best and the same exact cost at worst.

ok, half of your SPs are not in morphs...so why flame? Especially when you're wrong.

All the passives aren't morphed. I'd say maybe 1/3 of SPs are spent on morphs.

Cogo

GwaynLoki wrote: »

It's really a shame that this game seems to discourage experimenting with skills because in other games I really liked theorycrafting builds and trying them. In this game I just can't seem to afford that moneywise.

@nokomo109b14_ESO
@mr_stealth_b14_ESO

I think you nailed the reason why there are posts like this, demanding cheaper way to "try" different builds and "Theorycrafting builds".

The build system in ESO is not flawed or discouraging to try a build of any choice. I'll try to explain why and try to keep this to the facts of the game.

Warning, long post from someone who enjoys the game


ESO has a different MOO "class" style where the players choices, skills system, play style, story driven world events, teamwork, tactics, outside effects and the ongoing planned changes in Tamriel to create an evolving living world defines your role as a hero, champion, adventurer or any number of roleplaying "classes".

The keyword has always been "your choice", not to be confused with "the right choice".

This is what Zenimax have been clear on long before the launch. Tamriel is supposed to offer a play experience that will change overtime just like a living ongoing world.


Theorycrafting in ESO

ESO offers the freedom for a vast number of different "builds", a play style/combat system where the "effect" of all character skills have a different "power" depending on the persons play style/personal skill in using their build and skills.

What ESO does NOT offer is the ability to be the best at everything.

Example

Want to be the hardest, toughest tank, that can mitigate any damage?
Even be able to withstand giant smashes at you that would One-shot anyone else, then you can choose to.

But of course, this is what you do well. Soloing, doing damage, everything else that everyone does, will and should be harder and in some cases not even availible for you. This is called balance and creates diversity in Tamriel.

Again, you choose what build you are, but you can not be the best at everything.

This is an intended feature of ESO.


To be able to do any fair, correct "theorycrafting build" with the correct numbers and suit so many different play styles. Would require almost daily changes and constant feedback from many different builds to the creator of the "theorycrafter" to be of any longer term use for those who wants to build "the best build, with the best numbers"

It would however provide examples of builds, that gives suggestions and ideas to your own build, or even spark an interest in a new character.

Even if the "best build" is correct, the player who uses this build still is a big impact on how good it is for that player.

A very important fact to understand is the balance between PvE and PvP.
All MMOs who have both these as core parts of the MMO, still to this day, struggles with balancing and we simply have to accept this and adapt in the game.

This does not mean that you should not mix the two, just be aware of the over 17 years struggle among a lot of MMOs to balance this is still ongoing.


PvP is an integral part of ESO, like it or not, Tamriel is in conflict and you choose to assist your alliance or keep out of the war. BUT what happens in Cyrodiil, effects you in the long term. Just like PvE parts effects everyone in the long term.

This is intended to create and evolve a "real living Tamriel"


Since ESO is not a 1vs1 PvP game, but a war zone army against army, with 3 different alliances, adding not just 1, but 2 enemy alliances to fight against, along with having the PvP part in the biggest zone in the game and tools available such as war machines, tents, mercs, powerful NPCs and more additions coming. Making ESO different to "classic" PvP.

ESO even goes so far, that "lower" and less skilled classic PvP players can with wits, teamwork and almost real world military tactics not only contribute to their alliance, but even win a battle over for example a keep.

1vs1 PvP skills, still is a big part of the strength of your army, but is one of the many parts of Cryodiil events, instead of being the only part.

ESO "PvP" has goals of the conflict like control of land, fame and glory and even the ability to decide effects for your alliance, your guild and even the future to come. It is not static, where PvP only effects one char and the outcome has no impact of the rest of Tamriel.



Trying and experimenting with different skills and builds

The ongoing balancing of all skills, and adding of new skills/effects/gear and other effects like potions, food, resists, enchants and outside effects like mondus stones, temporary buffs from shrines or other effects that is unknown, or coming in the future, creates so much to do, that it offers almost an endless amount of builds and play styles.

ESO offers the player to choose their path, whatever that may be. Stupid to some, Best to other. It is meant to be a never ending world.

It is also meant to discover what is right for you. Maybe on paper, 1 skill looks hot to you, but when you mix is with your game play and the role you want to be, you may find that this powerful skill, was not for you anyway. OR, it was!

The respec option is expensive for the same reason that you should consider carefully what skill to pick, among all.

If you have all the skill points, and could pick all skills to experiment with very easily. You WILL get bored, just as quickly.


Conclusion about ESO builds and finding "the best build"

ESO is a skill based game for all, with 10 races and 4 classes (Currently) as a base for your "Taste" in what type of character you want to be.
All characters, not restricted by class, race or alliance can pick any of the "General", skills like armor and weapons.

More skills are available through exploring and finding guilds like the mage guild, that gives you a skill tree, or quests that can grant you a skill tree.
Even certain PLAYERS with a specific skill tree can in a way "give/teach" it to you, like Vampires or warewolves currently.

We all know that more skill trees are coming in different types.

One of ESO main features is that there is no right or wrong build. What is right, is your choice.

This is not my view, but how Zenimax explained about what type of MMO ESO is and how they look at its future development.

In contrast to most other MMOs, any skill can and likely WILL be subject to adjustments, making the description of a skill, or your personal wish what you want to become more important then the "stats" of the skill.

I can understand the frustration some players feel, when they invest all they have into a build, with the intention to keep it just like that and do not want any changes that would make them choose something else.

Here is where respec comes in, and this is how its meant to be, since Tamriels skills will not add/change once a year with an expansion, but constantly for my reasons above.

End of conclution


On a personal note, this is the first MMO I have ever played (among 20, each over 1 month at least. Several for years) that has given me a BURNING desire to create not one, but several alts. I still have not done that, because there is so much to do with my main, who a few days ago, reached Vet levels.

Jimm_ay

it should be a fixed price for attributes and skill points not based on a per point as you cannot just buy one or two or ten..it is all or nothing. Also a trial to earn a free respec would be nice.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Just go build a few on the PTS server. You can try anything you like there.

GwaynLoki

Cogo wrote: »

ESO offers the freedom for a vast number of different "builds", a play style/combat system where the "effect" of all character skills have a different "power" depending on the persons play style/personal skill in using their build and skills.

What ESO does NOT offer is the ability to be the best at everything.
[...]

Again, you choose what build you are, but you can not be the best at everything.
[...]
To be able to do any fair, correct "theorycrafting build" with the correct numbers and suit so many different play styles. Would require almost daily changes and constant feedback from many different builds to the creator of the "theorycrafter" to be of any longer term use for those who wants to build "the best build, with the best numbers".


Trying and experimenting with different skills and builds

The ongoing balancing of all skills, and adding of new skills/effects/gear and other effects like potions, food, resists, enchants and outside effects like mondus stones, temporary buffs from shrines or other effects that is unknown, or coming in the future, creates so much to do, that it offers almost an endless amount of builds and play styles.

ESO offers the player to choose their path, whatever that may be. Stupid to some, Best to other. It is meant to be a never ending world.

It is also meant to discover what is right for you. Maybe on paper, 1 skill looks hot to you, but when you mix is with your game play and the role you want to be, you may find that this powerful skill, was not for you anyway. OR, it was!

The respec option is expensive for the same reason that you should consider carefully what skill to pick, among all.

If you have all the skill points, and could pick all skills to experiment with very easily. You WILL get bored, just as quickly.
[...]
ESO is a skill based game for all, with 10 races and 4 classes (Currently) as a base for your "Taste" in what type of character you want to be.
All characters, not restricted by class, race or alliance can pick any of the "General", skills like armor and weapons.
[...]
One of ESO main features is that there is no right or wrong build. What is right, is your choice.
[...]
Here is where respec comes in, and this is how its meant to be, since Tamriels skills will not add/change once a year with an expansion, but constantly for my reasons above.

I am not sure i understand the points you are trying to make which may be due to English not being my native language.

So your point is that in this game you can make an almost unlimited number of builds - the effectivity of these is of course also down to personal skill. As in most games, you can't be a master of everything - obvious and reasonable. These unlimited number of builds you mention plus the different types of armor, food and other stuff that can influence the performance of a build makes the number of possible builds and play styles legion. I can agree with that. Then you say that to find a build that suits the personal play style of a player, you need to try the skills and builds out in combat and not just look at them on paper - agreed.
It's your finale statements I can't understand. In the beginning you said this game has almost unlimited play styles and builds and thereby the potential to keep me busy trying those for all eternity. And then you suddenly claim a player would get bored quickly if he was able to try those builds, so high respec costs are necessary? If that's what you are trying to say I fail to understand that argument (in my case the high respec costs meant that I didn't get bored from trying builds but that I just quit my char since I couldn't afford wasting so much time on trying to make enough money to afford the costs for respecs). Also you say I should carefully consider which skill I pick - another reason for the high respec costs. But earlier you admitted that you can never determine how well a skill works on paper.

I am sure I must have misunderstood you, since your arguments - or rather, the way I understand them - seem to be contradictory.

Obscure

The cost of a full skill respec is fine by me.

...but I don't want a full respec. I only ever want to change a morph choice here or there from time to time. Charge me by the skill point, fine, but let me respec by the skill point. Heck let me buy the other morph as well and change between them out of combat, and then there's no need for me to ever respec. It's not a bad design choice, just an unnecessary waste of gold for people who just change a single morph for the same cost for changing everything.