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How to (Actually) Fix Bolt Escape
NordJitsu
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Admittedly, I may have gotten a bit ragey and non-productive when I first heard about ZOS decision to nerf BE (which I strongly feel was poorly implemented). I'd like to change tone a bit and offer some constructive feedback on what might be a better way to fix the skill.
To begin with, 90% of the complaints about the skill were about people running away with it, not that they were dying to it or that it was too effective in combat. Thus, the answer to BE is to do the following things:
1. Remove the latest nerf entirely. Its dangerously close to a cool down and harms the "use your skills when you want to" promise that is so integral to ZOS's action combat system. If not remove it entirely, see the latter part of #2.
2. Remove the magicka regen penalty for Streak but not Ball of Lightning. Streak is use primarily to fight and in a fight a penalty to your magicka regen hurts you more than it does when you're simply running away. Keeping it for Ball of Lightning makes sense because it makes it a less spammable escape and also because Ball of Lightning has a lingering effect so it makes sense that it might harm your regen (much like Mage Light limits your magicka pool.) Alternatively, remove the magicka regen penalty but keep the subsequent cast penalty only for Ball of Lightning. Having both makes the skill bad. This has the added benefit of encouraging people to use Streak. Ball of Lightning is the current choice for a lot of sorcs and because its lets useful for actual fighting than it is for running away, people are encouraged to use it for running. Making Streak more desirable would solve many of the complaints on its own, since its not nearly as effective of an escape.
3. Make the use of BE remove CC immunity from any source (Immovable, CC break, Auto-immunity, ect.) This would prevent ZOS from harming the skills usefulness in PvE while providing an answer to the players who are unable to counter it and are frustrated by people running away from them. If BE removed CC immunity, you would ALWAYS be able to counter a Sorc with any form of ranged CC (Javelin, Destructive Reach, Obsidian Shard, Petrify, ect.) This would make it insanely easy to counter someone attempting to flee with BE and require a lot more use of LoS and a lot more intelligent play in general for a Sorc to use this to escape. This would be the largest change to BE yet, go further than past changes, and drastically change the way Sorcs play using BE while actually addressing the most common complaint against the skill.
Optional/Additional Changes
4. Increase the damage of Steak. Again, making this morph more desirable than BoL would solve a lot of problems already. Currently, Streak hardly does enough damage and has such a short duration CC that it isn't that desirable from a DPS stand point. Increasing its damage out put would encourage people to pick this morph and use it to fight rather than flee.
5. Decrease the range that one Bolt will take you. Like option 3, this is about reducing the skill cap needed to counter BE. If BE takes you less distance, then it would be easier for other players to Counter you and they'd get less frustrated.
I believe a combination of all or some of these changes would be superior to the most recent nerf for a variety of reasons but, primarily, because they address the problem people were actually complaining about (unlike the current nerf.) The most recent change harshly punished players who use BE in combat for damage and CC while doing very little to stop people who use it primarily to run away (since they can still usually cast it enough times to disengage if they start with a full magicka bar.)
Also, please keep flame out of this thread. I know this particular conversation tends to get heated (I've been guilty of it myself) but I'd like to keep it clean this time. Hopefully, with the help of the mods, we can keep this one constructive. I'm also aware that there are other threads on this topic but I feel that since my suggestions are quite specific and unique, they merit their own thread.
To begin with, 90% of the complaints about the skill were about people running away with it, not that they were dying to it or that it was too effective in combat. Thus, the answer to BE is to do the following things:
1. Remove the latest nerf entirely. Its dangerously close to a cool down and harms the "use your skills when you want to" promise that is so integral to ZOS's action combat system. If not remove it entirely, see the latter part of #2.
2. Remove the magicka regen penalty for Streak but not Ball of Lightning. Streak is use primarily to fight and in a fight a penalty to your magicka regen hurts you more than it does when you're simply running away. Keeping it for Ball of Lightning makes sense because it makes it a less spammable escape and also because Ball of Lightning has a lingering effect so it makes sense that it might harm your regen (much like Mage Light limits your magicka pool.) Alternatively, remove the magicka regen penalty but keep the subsequent cast penalty only for Ball of Lightning. Having both makes the skill bad. This has the added benefit of encouraging people to use Streak. Ball of Lightning is the current choice for a lot of sorcs and because its lets useful for actual fighting than it is for running away, people are encouraged to use it for running. Making Streak more desirable would solve many of the complaints on its own, since its not nearly as effective of an escape.
3. Make the use of BE remove CC immunity from any source (Immovable, CC break, Auto-immunity, ect.) This would prevent ZOS from harming the skills usefulness in PvE while providing an answer to the players who are unable to counter it and are frustrated by people running away from them. If BE removed CC immunity, you would ALWAYS be able to counter a Sorc with any form of ranged CC (Javelin, Destructive Reach, Obsidian Shard, Petrify, ect.) This would make it insanely easy to counter someone attempting to flee with BE and require a lot more use of LoS and a lot more intelligent play in general for a Sorc to use this to escape. This would be the largest change to BE yet, go further than past changes, and drastically change the way Sorcs play using BE while actually addressing the most common complaint against the skill.
Optional/Additional Changes
4. Increase the damage of Steak. Again, making this morph more desirable than BoL would solve a lot of problems already. Currently, Streak hardly does enough damage and has such a short duration CC that it isn't that desirable from a DPS stand point. Increasing its damage out put would encourage people to pick this morph and use it to fight rather than flee.
5. Decrease the range that one Bolt will take you. Like option 3, this is about reducing the skill cap needed to counter BE. If BE takes you less distance, then it would be easier for other players to Counter you and they'd get less frustrated.
I believe a combination of all or some of these changes would be superior to the most recent nerf for a variety of reasons but, primarily, because they address the problem people were actually complaining about (unlike the current nerf.) The most recent change harshly punished players who use BE in combat for damage and CC while doing very little to stop people who use it primarily to run away (since they can still usually cast it enough times to disengage if they start with a full magicka bar.)
Also, please keep flame out of this thread. I know this particular conversation tends to get heated (I've been guilty of it myself) but I'd like to keep it clean this time. Hopefully, with the help of the mods, we can keep this one constructive. I'm also aware that there are other threads on this topic but I feel that since my suggestions are quite specific and unique, they merit their own thread.
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Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because zen wanted to add two funtions to the skill , they made a mess and now they are having problems to control it.
If sorcs want their BE back , it is possible , make one morph only jump foward the target one will only jump back (pick one for the original), BOTH will then require a target and only jump X distance from a target , which will then return the usual , the guy gets far you use the gap closer , both spend resources ...
Outside adding a target so people stop the stupid spam to run away from pretty much anything than not a NB with luck (and yes , even these require luck to get to the sorcs who decided to run) , i support the cost increase.
Still , personally would have made 0 magicka regen penalty , so you can use in combat , 75/100% cost increase on the BASE COST (no magicka cost reduc here) , so you wont spam it for sure and keep the 4 secs.Edited by Nox_Aeterna on June 14, 2014 5:57AM"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
bolt escape (as path of shadow or any skill like that) should NOT EVER have a damage or cc component, neither a healing component......
speed increase/port and maybe protection from some dots/CCs (thats bugged since a long time) are fine but N EVER anything else
before you ask i am a v12 sorcEdited by andreas.rudroffb16_ESO on June 14, 2014 5:56AM0 -
Emohsnevar✭✭At OP, you are obviously a Streak user. So everything that you said in your post is nerfing Ball Lightning, but buffing Streak??? You make me laugh.
V12 Sorcerer, ball lightning user.0 -
Venithar✭✭✭While I agree something needs to be changed with the nerf they made to BE, I can't really agree with you in regards to what needs changing.
I use ball of lightning because of the spell absorption, which I don't think can be said to be any less of a thing used in combat then streak.
The reason I dislike the change though, was shown perfectly in a 1v1 fight I had tonight. I am a ranged sorc, I do not enjoy being a "super DPS FOTM AoE" sorc, I use spells and a bow. A such my fight went like this:
crystal shards out of stealth
poison arrow
endless fury
4 seconds of inability to hurt DK
bolt back out of range
4 more seconds of inability to hurt DK
bolt back some more
4 more seconds of inability to hurt DK
bolt away from pointless fight
have 0 magicka while being hunted by DK that I can't hurt at all from range
So you see, even had I had streak, I would have been screwed in that fight, and because I had to flee the fight at an absurd magicka cost plus not having any regen, I ended up being killed shortly there after. Sadly, this isn't something ZOS seemed to consider when they nerfed the skill. All they seemed to care about was people complaining that sorcs could stay out of their range.0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭andreas.rudroffb16_ESO wrote: »bolt escape (as path of shadow or any skill like that) should NOT EVER have a damage or cc component, neither a healing component......
speed increase/port and maybe protection from some dots/CCs (thats bugged since a long time) are fine but N EVER anything else
before you ask i am a v12 sorc
So you are saying bolt escape should be exactly doing the things people complained about (run away), rather than being used in combat.
OP, BE only has a range of 15m, considering you are not on top of opponent in combat, further reduction to distance will make the skill useless.
If yout want to require target for casting BE, then it should have the same range as any other gap closers, 22m.0 -
Halrloprillalar✭✭✭✭✭While I agree something needs to be changed with the nerf they made to BE, I can't really agree with you in regards to what needs changing.
I use ball of lightning because of the spell absorption, which I don't think can be said to be any less of a thing used in combat then streak.
The reason I dislike the change though, was shown perfectly in a 1v1 fight I had tonight. I am a ranged sorc, I do not enjoy being a "super DPS FOTM AoE" sorc, I use spells and a bow. A such my fight went like this:
crystal shards out of stealth
poison arrow
endless fury
4 seconds of inability to hurt DK
bolt back out of range
4 more seconds of inability to hurt DK
bolt back some more
4 more seconds of inability to hurt DK
bolt away from pointless fight
have 0 magicka while being hunted by DK that I can't hurt at all from range
So you see, even had I had streak, I would have been screwed in that fight, and because I had to flee the fight at an absurd magicka cost plus not having any regen, I ended up being killed shortly there after. Sadly, this isn't something ZOS seemed to consider when they nerfed the skill. All they seemed to care about was people complaining that sorcs could stay out of their range.
Don' try to gank a DK 1v1 unless you know you can take them.
I have solved the DK problem for 1v1 (as long as it is truly, only, 1v1, if there are 2 of them or if it's an emp/vamp you need to GTFO).
Message me if you want help.
As for the OP, I disagree with this favoring of streak b/c it is definitely the more powerful ability to begin with, especially in pvp. The stun and more importantly the ultimate gain is extremely strong already. I don't like the 50% nerf (especially since they didn't do their math right so it's not actually 50%) but I don't think the skill needs any buffs. The increase should actually really be incremental to discourage its use as spammable: just have an added 25% cost every time you cast it until you deal damage (with a long reset timer or while in combat). Problem solved. That way you can still streak a group if you are feeling ballsy, but can't run away forever as long as anything is chasing you."nerf rock, paper is fine" - scissors
https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/2n/35zpb92kfggx.gif0 -
Venithar✭✭✭Halrloprillalar wrote: »I have solved the DK problem for 1v1 (as long as it is truly, only, 1v1, if there are 2 of them or if it's an emp/vamp you need to GTFO).
My point was, people complained BE was OP because people could escape a fight denying them AP, and yet DKs can deny me AP simply spamming a skill, or templars can do it by simply healing through my attacks, and NBs can just vanish constantly throughout a fight. Each class has a skill of equal or greater annoyance to BE. The skill never needed to be nerfed without nerfing the other classes equally annoying skills.1 -
Grimbim✭✭
That sounds like a very good idea.Halrloprillalar wrote: »The increase should actually really be incremental to discourage its use as spammable: just have an added 25% cost every time you cast it until you deal damage (with a long reset timer or while in combat). Problem solved. That way you can still streak a group if you are feeling ballsy, but can't run away forever as long as anything is chasing you.
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Sleepydan✭✭✭I think the removal of cc immunity and restoration of mana efficiency was an interesting suggestion, and worth exploring0
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SuperJChat✭✭✭Nord, again you are arguing over BE, and again you have given bad reasons to "un-nerf" it as you say.
1. Everyone knows that it isn't a cooldown, and your argument of "breaking Zenimax's Word" doesn't even fly BECAUSE its NOT A COOLDOWN. If they said "we will never implement timed penalties" then your agument would have some basis, but as it stands, They didn't break there word, so you are just mad cause you can't spam it, end of story
2. So you want a move called "Bolt Escape" to be... bad at escaping? While your argument that if its being used for combat it shouldn't have penalties sounds good on paper, you have to realize that the real issue with Streak was Sorcs Streaking into Large Groups (Becuase Zerg is Starcraft), Nuking the group, then Streaking, Nuking, and Streaking out to Regen. While the Group is trying to ressurect its dead the Sorc would be back to full HP/Mag/Stam, and would Streak, Nuke, Streak, Nuke the group again. Rinse and repeat until the whole group is dead. Thus making the Steaking Sorc an un-killable Killing Machine, Just like how Vamps used to be (see a pattern?) The Issue is the Spamming of BE/Streak/BoL, not its general use.
3. Again, this is Nerfing the Escape aspect of BE, but this one makes less sense than anything you've said so far. Take it from me the Escape aspect is the most annoying part of it, but i don't thing removing CC immunity after using it would be a good idea at all. Hell they should fix the issue when they can BE while they are Talon'd, and considering they are Magicka users, wasting a little stamina on a dodgeroll wouldn't kill them. I get insanely furious when someone BE's out of our fight away from me, but at the same time its kinda like a Shame skill. It's like admitting defeat without dying, raising the white flag of surrender. At the end of the day, no actual harm is done. So allowing them to be susceptible to CC after 1 use of BE would be possible the worst idea for the skill.
4 and 5. both of these are just, bad. I shouldn't even have to explain why1 -
it dosnt cost enough mana its joke a of a move, skill should be removed and a new one should be made.0
