My idea for Bow fix

Dan_Miathail

So the bow skill tree sucks, I love my bow and the passives are great but it just doesn't compare to other weapons when it comes to abilities, especially when used with certain classes such as oh I don't know maybe freaking nightblades!! As is well known the bow/nightblade/medium armour combo is currently very painful to play, now I like my medium armour and bow but it is just damn near impossible to quest in veteran content with that build due to lack of crowd control, interrupts and damage. It is though a lot of classes/weapons weren't designed to be used outside of grouping. The following may be a bit of a read but I feel it only right to specify what my problem with which ability is and how I would fix it, I will try to make it as easy as possible.

Interrupts

Problem:
First off the biggest problem I have with bow (especially when it comes to questing) is interrupts, the only way for me to interrupt a spell cast is to either be at melee range (making the long shots passive redundant) or to morph poison arrow. Even with the venom arrow morph however interrupting can still be difficult due to poor resource management with certain classes, Nightblade specifically.

To often I have gone up against a quest boss that I need to interrupt that also summons adds and even with stamina well overcharged trying to block, use scatter shot and interrupt will burn through stamina much faster than the boss and adds die not only leaving me defenceless but also unable to attack. On top of that having the only ranged interrupt in a morph for the poison arrow skill more or less forces players into selecting it which renders the other morph of poison injection obsolete.

Fix:
Its simple, we kill the batm.... wait sorry no, try that again *Ahem* Its simple, just like melee hitting both mouse buttons interrupts, can make it so you shoot a blunt arrow that smacks the caster in the face or something, this would not give bow any kind of special advantage that melee uses don't already have but would both make interrupts easier and free up poison arrow for some better morph options, speaking of...

Poison Arrow

Problem:
As pointed out players are pretty much forced into using the Venom Arrow morph which is probably why no one bothered making Poison Injection less useless. Don't get me wrong an extra bit of DoT damage is nice but only effecting targets under 35% health makes it pointless on anything other than bosses. Trash mobs and other players in PvP are only a move or two away from death at 35% health so in reality that little bit of extra DoT isn't going to do a whole lot.

Fix:
Now there is a couple of things here that could be done, first off with giving bow an interrupt Venom Arrow can be changed, what I would LOVE to see is an option to make it use mana instead of stamina to help with better recourse management but even just something like having it do fire/burning damage instead would still be OK. As for poison injection just remove the 35% thing, make the DoT last longer or even make it shorter in exchange for more damage.

Volley

Problem:
The mobs don't stay in the circle, the low damage this move does would be bearable if the mobs would at least stay in it. Is fine when you are in a group with a tank but then the low damage becomes and issue and your butt gets dumped for a DK or Sorc.

Fix:
Make this the bow wielders dark talons, mobs are stunned for a second or two when first hit, this would make questing, especially in vet content much, much more doable.

Arrow Spray

Problem:
For the moderate damage it does the stamina cost is insane, this would be the best move for fighting multiple mobs while questing solo with the slow and all but even with overcharged stamina you can only get a couple of shots off before you are potting and recharging resulting in not being able to dodge and block the very unhappy mobs now charging towards you.

Fix:
Reduce the stamina cost.

Snipe

Problem:
It take to damn long, 3 seconds + arrow travel time renders this move only useful for an opening attack or shooting jerks on keep walls.

Fix:
Reduce the cast time, 2 seconds at the most,

That is it, if you are reading this part then good for you, you made it. I don't expect to see these exact things implemented but something similar would be great, just so long as the issues raised here are addressed in some form because right now my love for archery hurts.

Reykice

The Nightblade has the best resource generation of all 4 classes... its not even a competition the NB is playing a completely different resource game.

Fleymark

What level are you?

I play a stamina build nightshade archer at VR4 and I absolutely gut mobs. Any single mob that can be knocked back has no chance. It takes skill and some juggling but most 3 packs are entirely doable...multiple casters or healers in the VRs can be dicey but with the right assassination/melee opener or a snipe it's usually doable. I recently added leaching strikes to my skill set and weaving light attacks with bombard now means I can aoe cc and kill packs if they aren't casters and stamina supply isn't a problem.

If you are higher level than me I would love to hear when you thought archery became underpowered so I can prepare. If you are lower level than me, then it sounds like you probably aren't doing it right.

Honestly the only problem I've ever had with my stamina build nightblade archer is there never seems to be enough healing. We just get that one siphon and withpotions it's tenable but it gets close a lot. Would be nice to have a better margin there.

Otherwise, I have zero complaints about my archer build this far.

Fleymark

PS Volley on it's own sucks. I've never used it all that much because I prefer other tactics but if you coordinate with the knockback and/or bombard it becomes a lot more effective.

In other words use your CC with it.

Speaking of which, Arrow Spray doesn't suck. Get Bombard morph. It stuns. That, combined with the passive that increases dmg to disabled mobs is awesome. Get leeching Strikes and weave light attacks between bombards. Stamina is no longer a problem. Get better stamina regeneration and/or conservation jewelry glyphs.

In fact, no offense, but I'm going to go ahead and suggest L2P. You make a lot of broad sweeping statements about archery, nightblade and medium armor builds sucking, which is odd, to me, because I use all of those. As a wood elf in medium armor and with all the passives I've got stamina at softcap just by wearing a full set of medium armor. By having 5 pieces of hundings on I've got it overcharged 5 or 6 points higher than I did from my old setup of 5 medium and one ring with 11 stamina recovery. Now that ring has stamina conservation on it instead. Combine this with leaching strikes and stamina is zero problem now assuming I weave properly. In fact, leeching strikes has been so beneficial I'm thinking about dropping the conservation from my jewelry and wearing weapon dmg add in those slots instead. Chanter friend hasn't been on for a couple days tho. If that makes up for the dmg penalty from leeching strikes or more, I'm absolutely set.

Again, I'm only VR4 so there could very well be a problem with this at higher VR that I haven't gotten to yet, but up to where I'm at now, there are zero problems, for me, with the very build you seem to be having problems with.

What level are you?

Dan_Miathail

Fleymark wrote: »

What level are you?

I play a stamina build nightshade archer at VR4 and I absolutely gut mobs. Any single mob that can be knocked back has no chance. It takes skill and some juggling but most 3 packs are entirely doable...multiple casters or healers in the VRs can be dicey but with the right assassination/melee opener or a snipe it's usually doable.

Generally mobs are fine in most areas yes, but multiple casters or more specifically caster bosses that summon adds prove to be pretty though. I am VR8 and can easily take out a pack of say, crocodiles in Craglorn by myself but when facing a VR5 caster boss + adds I get absolutely annihilated.

Reykice

I would look into Strife - Swallow Soul, its a heal over time and it passively gives you 10% more healing received...
Its a magicka bases ability so it doesn`t hurt stamina at all.

The way they designed it all classes have weaknesses with a bow... the Sorcerer has Critical Surge but has no stamina regen of any kind, the DK has a good weapon buff but has no other class ranged abilities to mix with the bow and so on.

Dan_Miathail

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

I would look into Strife - Swallow Soul, its a heal over time and it passively gives you 10% more healing received...
Its a magicka bases ability so it doesn`t hurt stamina at all.

I have this and use it frequently, however I seem to take far more damage then it heals.

SaibotLiu

I played a nightblade bow weilder with medium armor, and had no issues with resource management. If you arent using leeching strikes, you havent put a lot of thought into your build.

I will agree all bow abilities are absolutely useless. I only use my bow for normal attack, to keep pools up, which basically makes any class ability spammable for a nightblade if you can normal attack while doing it, which you can very easily.

That doesnt change the fact that Ive stopped playing because the game direction with VR levels is a complete joke.

PBpsy

The whole mechanic of the bow makes it mostly unbearable for me. Homing arrows are ridiculous. I would have preferred the old TES system where you had to aim the damn shots and they did good damage when they hit. I wouldn't take the bow again even if the increased the damage 4 times.

Dan_Miathail

Just a bit more info, I have full epics and have been using a build/enchant setup that with food buff overcharges both stamina and health, still can't do half the quest bosses in vet content solo because I can't defend, cc adds and attack with out burning through stamina and dying.

Have issues where at the exact same time I interrupt a spell cast a melee add will break stun and hit me with a power move that drops half my health. So I can either block that and get smashed by the spell or interrupt the spell and get smashed by the add or try and block both and lose to much stam to be able to do anything else. Biggest reason I want to see interrupt taken out of the morph and made to be like melee interrupt.

Fleymark

Good to know. Like I said I'm just VR4 but archery is serving me well, still.

The thing about interrupts on caster bosses with adds...I run into this too...You pretty much have to spam venom arrow on them, or weave it with a light attack to keep stamina supply up. If I'm really on it I can weave a bombard in to keep the adds under control. Problem usually is the adds creep up into being in the way of the caster in the back. Lol

I kind of like your idea for interrupts but got me thinking a long duration stifle would be nice. I suppose the 12 second siphon mez could work for that but a true stifle would be better because the mez breaks on dmg which takes bombard out of the picture. I like my bombard.

Lyall84

Volley kind of sucks, but other than that...bow skills are the only viable stamina buld, at least against single targets. Everything else does gimped damage compared to the students of hogwartz running around.

Lyall84

Some people, especially you night blade types, need to take a better look at your own skills and bow skills before saying they suck. Get snipe, get shadowy disguise, and mark target on your bar. Look at them and think, meditate if you have to. In the right rotation those 3 skills, 2 night blade and 1 bow, can drop people in seconds if you know what you are doing.

Fleymark

JD_Dart wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

I would look into Strife - Swallow Soul, its a heal over time and it passively gives you 10% more healing received...
Its a magicka bases ability so it doesn`t hurt stamina at all.

I have this and use it frequently, however I seem to take far more damage then it heals.

Me too...is what I was referring to before. That, plus pots usually does the trick but it gets really close a lot. In fact it's usually healing that I'm worried about the most because our margins are so narrow there. Altar helps but I find that of marginal usefulness because it's stationary. This makes random pops and adds a nightmare.

Does anything else a NB gets heal besides the mark target morph? I haven't tried it but doesn't one of the path of darkness morphs heal?

Be nice to have something. There's also a mage guild (i think) heal dot that appears to work just like the siphon heal. Wonder if they can be stacked?

Hypertionb14_ESO

The Bombard Morph of Arrow Spray is a bow users Dark Talons.

Lyall84

Fleymark wrote: »

JD_Dart wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

I would look into Strife - Swallow Soul, its a heal over time and it passively gives you 10% more healing received...
Its a magicka bases ability so it doesn`t hurt stamina at all.

I have this and use it frequently, however I seem to take far more damage then it heals.

Me too...is what I was referring to before. That, plus pots usually does the trick but it gets really close a lot. In fact it's usually healing that I'm worried about the most because our margins are so narrow there. Altar helps but I find that of marginal usefulness because it's stationary. This makes random pops and adds a nightmare.

Does anything else a NB gets heal besides the mark target morph? I haven't tried it but doesn't one of the path of darkness morphs heal?

Be nice to have something. There's also a mage guild (i think) heal dot that appears to work just like the siphon heal. Wonder if they can be stacked?

Siphoning tree is healing for night blades.

Strife is heal over time, morph one makes it add the hot to 2 allies, the other increases your received healing from all sources.

Leeching strikes morph, heal on hit, but as of now I would not chose this over the other morph.

Sap essence morph, aoe instant damage that instant heals based on number of targets hit.

And yes, refreshing path morph heals but it is weak.

Obscure

This VR10 Medium Armor, DW/Bow Dragonknight disagrees. The Bow is, in my opinion, the strongest of the underpowered Stamina based skill lines. Yes, they are all underpowered, but for damage Bow is the most optimal usage of burning out your Stamina leaving you unable to dodge, block, CC break, sprint, sneak, or bash. Yes there's substantial resource inequality to mention between that and spamming your magicka skills in light armor with a magic stick, but that's a topic best kept in the several other threads dedicated to resolving that injustice to Stamina specializations.

Suffice it to say there's more than one way to load out your Bow skills, and it's pretty versitile. Between Bombard to play keep away on multiple targets, to Volley to punish them in for balling up, to waiting for that right moment to stun them with a Magnum Shot to keep them from doing anything while that Snipe skill warms up to blow their face out the back of their head. So don't focus on what you can't do, that'll get you nowhere. Instead think of what you can do, and then use that to murder everything in your path.

Sure it's going to be worse than wearing a dress and face rolling everything with a staff, but everything that isn't using Light Armor and a Staff (or two) is sub-optimal anyhow. Generally speaking, Magicka > Stamina, it's not particularly the Bow.

born2beagator

Won't stay in the volley circle? Easy. Fire off scorched earth, then follow immediately with bombard as soon as it hits.

Dayv

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

The Nightblade has the best resource generation of all 4 classes... its not even a competition the NB is playing a completely different resource game.

At a HUGE sacrifice of dps

Lyall84

Dayv wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

The Nightblade has the best resource generation of all 4 classes... its not even a competition the NB is playing a completely different resource game.

At a HUGE sacrifice of dps

Short term dps, I would agree, but long term disagree. Lets say you can pull 1500 dps for 1 full minute before running dry on resources, then can only limp along at 700 to 800 with potions and natural regen. Or you can do 1000 dps forever because you never run out of resources, any fight longer than 4 or 5 minutes the sustainable damage will be more dps. Granted, we are now talking dpm, instead of dps, but the sustainable aspect in some situations out weigh the loss in direct damage.

Sev

PBpsy wrote: »

The whole mechanic of the bow makes it mostly unbearable for me. Homing arrows are ridiculous. I would have preferred the old TES system where you had to aim the damn shots and they did good damage when they hit. I wouldn't take the bow again even if the increased the damage 4 times.

That would basically result in damage scaling with latency. OP if you live next to the server, utterly useless if you're across the Pacific Ocean.