Can we get rid of classes already?

Swordguy

I'll make this quick n dirty, cause I know that's how people roll in this forum.

The premise of this thread is that balancing between classes takes exponentially more development time, then it does to nerf a FoTM (flavour of the month) build periodically. this helps pvp'ers with balance, and keeps PVE from being turned into a yard sale of bad changes.

What makes sense at this point is to allow access to all class skills on a single character, and do away with needing alts for anything other than RP, PVP, mules, crafting etc... because, re-playability for alts is /wrists if you have a somewhat functioning long-term memory, and because it is inevitable that people are going to demand new classes, which will make the never ending balancing act eat up even more time... time that could be spent fixing bugs, or making coffee for the other devs if the dev(s) working on balance can't do anything else.

that being said, min-maxing is a lot more fun when things are mixed up periodically for everyone at once. However, a single class being nerfed repeatedly is another story, and forces a re-roll regardless if you pvp or pve, and leveling multiple alts in this game is less then ideal or fun, unless you pound back some liqueur and drool your way to VR level <enter current level cap here> .

Think about it Zen, it is all I am asking.

Blackwidow

This is the third thread on this is the last few hours.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/110414/take-away-classes#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/110307/this-is-going-to-sound-crazy-so-please-hear-me-out#latest

Mablung

While I understand the intent behind threads like these it is a futile effort to want the developers to drastically change the game in a way such as this.

The time and money invested with planning and creating the game is not something they are just going to throw out the window and that is essentially what people suggest when creating these types of topics.

Essentially what is being asked for is a new game because with the programming that is involved to get to the point we are at now and then to change classes as drastically as being suggested the only way to do so is to start from scratch.

Enkil

Agreed... Should have never had classes in an Elder Scrolls game...

Swordguy

Mablung wrote: »

While I understand the intent behind threads like these it is a futile effort to want the developers to drastically change the game in a way such as this.

The time and money invested with planning and creating the game is not something they are just going to throw out the window and that is essentially what people suggest when creating these types of topics.

Essentially what is being asked for is a new game because with the programming that is involved to get to the point we are at now and then to change classes as drastically as being suggested the only way to do so is to start from scratch.

how is having access to all class skill lines, both current and future, on a single toon a drastic change? are you a programmer, or have experience with it?

Bryong9ub17_ESO

Sorry, but in my opinion its a horrible idea. I like the class system, especially in a mmo. I would leave the game if they got rid of classes. But I guess I don't have to worry about that because its never going to happen. You are pretty much asking to re-work the entire game. Not going to happen.

Swordguy

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorry, but in my opinion its a horrible idea. I like the class system, especially in a mmo. I would leave the game if they got rid of classes. But I guess I don't have to worry about that because its never going to happen. You are pretty much asking to re-work the entire game. Not going to happen.

what do they have to rework exactly?

Mablung

Swordguy wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

While I understand the intent behind threads like these it is a futile effort to want the developers to drastically change the game in a way such as this.

The time and money invested with planning and creating the game is not something they are just going to throw out the window and that is essentially what people suggest when creating these types of topics.

Essentially what is being asked for is a new game because with the programming that is involved to get to the point we are at now and then to change classes as drastically as being suggested the only way to do so is to start from scratch.

how is having access to all class skill lines, both current and future, on a single toon a drastic change? are you a programmer, or have experience with it?

I have experience with leading programming teams. It is a huge change and would require more work than what you visually are seeing. As an end user (what gamers are) we tend to view things in a more simplistic, easily fixed sort of way. As someone who has seen what coding/programming entails on the back end we are asking for the Cubs to win the world series. Doable. Not probable.

The work would require an entirely separate team to begin something like this and then they would have to be coordinating with anyone working on new features, content and patches. It would be far simpler to create a new game imo.

Swordguy

Mablung wrote: »

Swordguy wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

While I understand the intent behind threads like these it is a futile effort to want the developers to drastically change the game in a way such as this.

The time and money invested with planning and creating the game is not something they are just going to throw out the window and that is essentially what people suggest when creating these types of topics.

Essentially what is being asked for is a new game because with the programming that is involved to get to the point we are at now and then to change classes as drastically as being suggested the only way to do so is to start from scratch.

how is having access to all class skill lines, both current and future, on a single toon a drastic change? are you a programmer, or have experience with it?

I have experience with leading programming teams. It is a huge change and would require more work than what you visually are seeing. As an end user (what gamers are) we tend to view things in a more simplistic, easily fixed sort of way. As someone who has seen what coding/programming entails on the back end we are asking for the Cubs to win the world series. Doable. Not probable.

The work would require an entirely separate team to begin something like this and then they would have to be coordinating with anyone working on new features, content and patches. It would be far simpler to create a new game imo.

so this is more work than creating new classes, and spending infinitely more time rebalancing?

Depending on how classes have been worked into the code, I would speculate that you may be understating the time and manpower needed to make the change, or overshooting how much impact each class has throughout the game.

As far as I can tell; Dialogue, quests, all other skill lines, weapons, armor, crafting, and pretty much everything else in game is not effected, nor depends on what class a character is. if this was the case, and the back end was a mess of spaghetti code for classes, then creating a new class would be equally as much work, as removing classes from the game.

If this was WoW, or another mmo where classes have locks on various gear, skills etc.., I would agree with you, and would not have made this thread. but having education and a background in programming and dba myself, I question just how deep the code runs in this game for each class, and for very good reason.

ErykGrimm

Swordguy wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

While I understand the intent behind threads like these it is a futile effort to want the developers to drastically change the game in a way such as this.

The time and money invested with planning and creating the game is not something they are just going to throw out the window and that is essentially what people suggest when creating these types of topics.

Essentially what is being asked for is a new game because with the programming that is involved to get to the point we are at now and then to change classes as drastically as being suggested the only way to do so is to start from scratch.

how is having access to all class skill lines, both current and future, on a single toon a drastic change? are you a programmer, or have experience with it?

How would everyone having access to everything balance class skills and abilities that are unbalanced. FoTM builds would be even more rampant than they are now because people would just pick the 3 most OP skill lines at any given time. Your intentions are good, but in practice this would be many steps backwards. It would also require re-tasking devs onto tackling that beast of a change instead of fixing the balance issues that will still persist in a "classless" system.

ErykGrimm

Enkil wrote: »

Agreed... Should have never had classes in an Elder Scrolls game...

Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had classes. In most you could customize your class, which, in eso, you can still do with your weapon/armor choices.

Enkil

ErykGrimm wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

Agreed... Should have never had classes in an Elder Scrolls game...

Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had classes. In most you could customize your class, which, in eso, you can still do with your weapon/armor choices.

Skyrim did away with the class names. Prior to that, you could chose a "class" that has a higher starting values in certain skills and that favored certain attributes like strength or willpower. However, your character still had access to all skill lines and could level any or all of them up to the max. They were more of a starting point.

Rev Rielle

Enkil wrote: »

Agreed... Should have never had classes in an Elder Scrolls game...

Well that's just it. This was never a traditional Elder Scrolls Game. Right from the very outset years ago development said it was an TES/MMO hybrid game. Players that have come here wanting an Elder Scolls game, just as those wanting a 'traditional' MMO game are often disappointed, because they haven't educated themselves about the product and simply do not know what ESO is.

I can't help but feel this is just another example of players these days selfishly wanting to be able to do/have everything. Classes are here, and here to stay. People just have to deal with that and get on with their online lives. Or if they can't, go find another game to play.

If it's such a big issue for people, why on earth did you buy the game in the first place?

ErykGrimm

Enkil wrote: »

ErykGrimm wrote: »

Enkil wrote: »

Agreed... Should have never had classes in an Elder Scrolls game...

Every Elder Scrolls game before Skyrim had classes. In most you could customize your class, which, in eso, you can still do with your weapon/armor choices.

Skyrim did away with the class names. Prior to that, you could chose a "class" that has a higher starting values in certain skills and that favored certain attributes like strength or willpower. However, your character still had access to all skill lines and could level any or all of them up to the max. They were more of a starting point.

You have missed the point. I am very well aware of how the previous titles worked. I have played them all. And again, you have the same access to armor and weapons as you did in any previous titles. Class skills are a bonus. Magic was overhauled completely in ESO. However, all discrepancy between this game and previous ones are irrelevant. ZOS stated that eso is not skyrim online. If thats what you want, there is actually a mod for that.

Ser Lobo

I support this. But imagine a player with bolt escape, cloak and vampire mist form.

Enkil

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I can't help but feel this is just another example of players these days selfishly wanting to be able to do/have everything.

If it's such a big issue for people, why on earth did you buy the game in the first place?

Wow, what a cynical and pessimistic view. Not everyone is motivated by self-interest you know. People just have certain expectations from games set in a certain universe. You wouldn't expect druids in a star wars games. You wouldn't expect people to carry a machine gun in a medieval fantasy game. And people that have been playing Elder Scrolls games for over a decade do not expect classes that limit their skill choices. One of the game's most beloved features is the fact that you can have access to all the skills on one character. It is basically intrinsic to the franchise.

If having no classes were impossible in an MMO, that would be one thing. It's not. It has been done already by many other MMOs. Take ArcheAge for example... it has what amounts to a classless system where you select skill lines a la Elder Scrolls.

I bought the game because I have been waiting for an Elder Scrolls MMO since Morrowind. I enjoy the game, but like many, I am shocked at how horrible the balance is and that something as important as stamina based weapons and skills are not even viable at end game. These are fundamental flaws... which is why you are seeing people post more radical suggestions to correct it.

If the classes were properly balanced and stamina was viable things would be different.

Pellaeon

Enkil wrote: »

Wow, what a cynical and pessimistic view. Not everyone is motivated by self-interest you know. People just have certain expectations from games set in a certain universe. You wouldn't expect druids in a star wars games. You wouldn't expect people to carry a machine gun in a medieval fantasy game. And people that have been playing Elder Scrolls games for over a decade do not expect classes that limit their skill choices. One of the game's most beloved features is the fact that you can have access to all the skills on one character. It is basically intrinsic to the franchise.

If having no classes were impossible in an MMO, that would be one thing. It's not. It has been done already by many other MMOs. Take ArcheAge for example... it has what amounts to a classless system where you select skill lines a la Elder Scrolls.

I bought the game because I have been waiting for an Elder Scrolls MMO since Morrowind. I enjoy the game, but like many, I am shocked at how horrible the balance is and that something as important as stamina based weapons and skills are not even viable at end game. These are fundamental flaws... which is why you are seeing people post more radical suggestions to correct it.

If the classes were properly balances and stamina was viable things would be different.

I agree, I love the ES series and was very excited when I heard this was coming out. I remember going to Bethesda Forums and talking in threads about wanting a multi-player or MMO version. This just has not been what I was expecting.

Rev Rielle

Enkil wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I can't help but feel this is just another example of players these days selfishly wanting to be able to do/have everything.

If it's such a big issue for people, why on earth did you buy the game in the first place?

Wow, what a cynical and pessimistic view. Not everyone is motivated by self-interest you know. People just have certain expectations from games set in a certain universe. You wouldn't expect druids in a star wars games. You wouldn't expect people to carry a machine gun in a medieval fantasy game. And people that have been playing Elder Scrolls games for over a decade do not expect classes that limit their skill choices. One of the game's most beloved features is the fact that you can have access to all the skills on one character. It is basically intrinsic to the franchise.

If having no classes were impossible in an MMO, that would be one thing. It's not. It has been done already by many other MMOs. Take ArcheAge for example... it has what amounts to a classless system where you select skill lines a la Elder Scrolls.

I bought the game because I have been waiting for an Elder Scrolls MMO since Morrowind. I enjoy the game, but like many, I am shocked at how horrible the balance is and that something as important as stamina based weapons and skills are not even viable at end game. These are fundamental flaws... which is why you are seeing people post more radical suggestions to correct it.

If the classes were properly balanced and stamina was viable things would be different.

Yes, I agree. But making a classless system would not fix the problem you're talking about: Of the perceived imbalance in the mechanics of the game. It would just sweep it under the carpet. They're two separate issues.

Anyone that took time to learn about the game before it came out would know that it had classes. It was one of the things development said was a concession they made when adapting the series for Online. If people want to buy a product based solely on their hope for what it will be, and not do any research into what it actually is, well I guess they're often going to be disappointed.

Instead of always seeming to want everything, I think people should just be happy with what we've got. For remember back; there was a time when we couldn't allocate our skill/attribute points.

Artis

Yes, classes must go. It's not cool that they force us to level alts if we want to try something new.

Mablung

Instead of asking to get rid of classes, maybe we all should just ask for skyrim online. That is really what we all want right?

Enkil

Mablung wrote: »

Instead of asking to get rid of classes, maybe we all should just ask for skyrim online. That is really what we all want right?

Well the Morrowind system of attributes and skills best lends itself to implementation in an MMO.. And Oblivion is better suited also... Hmmm... Why not call it Elder Scrolls online? Oh wait ...

Swordguy

Mablung wrote: »

Instead of asking to get rid of classes, maybe we all should just ask for skyrim online. That is really what we all want right?

Most of the skills are classless, but the skills that aren't are constantly being adjusted (and will be for years to come as long as there are classes). This should tell anyone with a brain that classes need to go now, before even the hardcore players flip Zen the bird and leave.

Mablung

Swordguy wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

Instead of asking to get rid of classes, maybe we all should just ask for skyrim online. That is really what we all want right?

Most of the skills are classless, but the skills that aren't are constantly being adjusted (and will be for years to come as long as there are classes). This should tell anyone with a brain that classes need to go now, before even the hardcore players flip Zen the bird and leave.

I agree with you that the classes definitely should not have been part of the game design. An Elder Scrolls game has always started with a generic base race and you place points into the many skills available. You build your character how you wish. Of course morrowind had some preset classes that offered suggestions on how to take your character a specific way but really that is not what Elder Scrolls became.

That is why I only referenced Skyrim. It has everything you could want in an RPG, now to just translate that to an MMO. This game is too big in scale for that though and is designed for PS4/XBox One controllers. As each day passes, I get the feeling that we've been had.

ErykGrimm

Swordguy wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

Instead of asking to get rid of classes, maybe we all should just ask for skyrim online. That is really what we all want right?

Most of the skills are classless, but the skills that aren't are constantly being adjusted (and will be for years to come as long as there are classes). This should tell anyone with a brain that classes need to go now, before even the hardcore players flip Zen the bird and leave.

Insinuating that everyone that disagrees with is brainless removes any validity that any of your points may have ever had. It is too late to "switch" to a classless system. It would have done nothing to improve balance had it been the case at launch. Just how would everyone having access to all the "OP" skill lines at all times help the game in any way? Just cause everyone can, doesn't make it balanced and makes the viable builds even more limited.

ZOS_JordanH

Hello, everyone. This thread is a duplicate of a pre-existing thread. In the interest of facilitating discussion, we are closing this thread and redirecting you so you can join in on the conversation already in progress! Thank you!

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/110307/this-is-going-to-sound-crazy-so-please-hear-me-out