Would you kindly ....

EdonilTebaun

kill that son-of-a-*****
Whoops, wrong game.

Actually, I would appreciate it if somebody could explain to me exactly how DK's are so "overpowered" at this current state of the game?

I don't play the meta-builds, I haven't even gone into PvP. I've played as a tank in all my previous MMO's and the DK was the class that stuck in my head. Granted I'm only level 34 on my DK tank (I play with my spouse), due to limited time.

Redguard, DK
Stat point placement: 7 Magicka / 20 Health / 6 Stamina
Armor: 3 heavy / 2 medium / 2 light
Primary Weapon Set- 1H & Shield
Primary Ability Bar - Ransack, Burning Embers, Green Dragon Blood, Fragmented Shield, Shield Charge Ultimate: Magma Armor

Secondary Weapon Set- Dual Wield
Secondary Ability Bar - Blood Craze, Lava Whip, Whirling Blades, Fragmented Shield, Green Dragon Blood Ultimate: Standard of Might

DK Passives: Kindling 2, Searing Heat 1, Iron Skin 2, Elder Dragon 1, Eternal Mountain 2, Battle Roar 2
Weapon Passives: Fortress 1, Sword&Board 2, Deadly Bash 1, Dual Wield Expert 1, Controlled Fury 2, Ruffian 1
Armor Passives: (light) Evocation 1, Recovery 1, (medium) Wind Walker 1, (Heavy)Resolve 1, Constitution 1
Racial Passives: Vigor 1, Conditioning 1

As you can see, I don't use a staff, nor do I run around in a robe as so many claim is the best. I will accede to the claims that stamina based damage is severely underperforming in comparison to magicka based damage (I have a sorc alt). But then I'm not here to destroy everything in the first few seconds; I'm here to be a damage sponge so everyone else can destroy everything in the first few seconds.

I feel mostly survivable with the abilities I have, but not excessively so. Even with my spouse (who plays a healing templar) I've seen my health bounce like a yo-yo and ended up dead more than once because I just got crushed by something. So in all actuality, I don't feel overpowered at all, and maybe a bit underpowered now that I had to take Choking Talons off my bar considering it's costing me 2/3 of my Magicka pool to drop just one which basically eliminated my only CC ability.

Yes, I have tested the Dark Talons line in multiple casts. The stated tooltip cost of 285 is most definitely wrong. At 887 Magicka that should leave me with 602, yet with my addon, it shows approximately 315 after use. So either there's another reduction in play, I'm currently bugged, or I missed something in the patch notes.

Now maybe I'm doing it wrong, that's entirely possible, and anyone with constructive advice is welcome to offer it.

But what I really want to know is this:
How, exactly, are DK's so overpowered in comparison to other classes?

kieso

You'll know when you see a DK with LA and Fire staff. Sadly it's only one build..

dsalter

The passive for fire damage boost, dragons blood healing thing, desto staff+ robes, maybe standard of mightMagma armor. all in one is brutal

Blackwidow

EdonilTebaun wrote: »

Actually, I would appreciate it if somebody could explain to me exactly how DK's are so "overpowered" at this current state of the game?

Ah. The old "don't nerf me" plea.

Lovely

EdonilTebaun wrote: »

As you can see, I don't use a staff, nor do I run around in a robe as so many claim is the best.

So... you ask how DKs are considered OP while you know you are not using the good build? I'm not sure what the point of your post is - to prove that by having a bad spec you are not OP?

Ok, I'll answer. Because other classes on their best spec are not as good as DK on its best spec. That covers it?

EdonilTebaun

Blackwidow wrote: »

EdonilTebaun wrote: »

Actually, I would appreciate it if somebody could explain to me exactly how DK's are so "overpowered" at this current state of the game?

Ah. The old "don't nerf me" plea.

I'm making no plea in any way, shape, or form. I'm asking a valid question. There seems to be a great deal of complaining about light armor and destruction/restoration staves, and it's not just limited to DK's. Granted there are those who benefit more or less from it. If you would look at the following:

EdonilTebaun wrote: »

Redguard, DK
Stat point placement: 7 Magicka / 20 Health / 6 Stamina
Armor: 3 heavy / 2 medium / 2 light
Primary Weapon Set- 1H & Shield
Primary Ability Bar - Ransack, Burning Embers, Green Dragon Blood, Fragmented Shield, Shield Charge Ultimate: Magma Armor

Secondary Weapon Set- Dual Wield
Secondary Ability Bar - Blood Craze, Lava Whip, Whirling Blades, Fragmented Shield, Green Dragon Blood Ultimate: Standard of Might

DK Passives: Kindling 2, Searing Heat 1, Iron Skin 2, Elder Dragon 1, Eternal Mountain 2, Battle Roar 2
Weapon Passives: Fortress 1, Sword&Board 2, Deadly Bash 1, Dual Wield Expert 1, Controlled Fury 2, Ruffian 1
Armor Passives: (light) Evocation 1, Recovery 1, (medium) Wind Walker 1, (Heavy)Resolve 1, Constitution 1
Racial Passives: Vigor 1, Conditioning 1

It's pretty obvious that I'm certainly not using whatever light armor+destro staff combination that's going around out there (nor do I want to, I'm a tank). If there are abilities that need to be adjusted, so-be-it, it's not like my single voice is going to change any decision made by Zenimax. But I would like to understand the reason that my tanking survivability is being reduced.

Swordguy

making classes was the worst feature that came back into the elder scrolls. instead of having to balance one or two top builds, the have to balance classes against each other, taking way more time to balance and fix.

Blackwidow

EdonilTebaun wrote: »

if somebody could explain to me exactly how DK's are so "overpowered"

I can't give you the math, but I can tell you a short story.

I am a templar and my friend is a NB. We were going through that dungeon where all the tigers are in that one hallway, like 6-8 a group and there is two groups.

Anyway, we were making our way down the hall, but it was a bit of a challenge for the two of us.

On the way back out we saw a solo DK, the same level as us, walk up to one group of tigers and kill them in like 3 seconds. His life barely dropped at all.

I was very impressed.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have never asked anything to be nerfed and i never will, but that did blow me away.

EdonilTebaun

Swordguy wrote: »

making classes was the worst feature that came back into the elder scrolls. instead of having to balance one or two top builds, the have to balance classes against each other, taking way more time to balance and fix.

True, but that's been the case with MMO's since Everquest (when I started playing them), and probably even before that. I seem to recall hearing about a lot of angst in DAOC with the balancing act they tried. At least in ESO, there's only 4 classes to balance against one another.

RylukShouja

The reason that people say that DKs are overpowered is because the DK passives synergize so well with a fire attack destro build that it IS overpowered. It is not every single aspect of every single skill and ability, it is one build that does far more damage than it should, and than it does on any other class because of your passives and a few DK abilities that complement it.

So you are the unfortunate victim of the nerf bat...your chosen build was not overpowered, but ZOS seems to have chosen to use a battleaxe to perform class surgery rather than a scalpel. There is bound to be collateral damage.

Amsel_McKay

You need to focus on something... your stats and armor are all over the place.

All light armor, all Magicka and staff build you will be able to tank as well as you are now but have 4 times the DPS.

EdonilTebaun

Blackwidow wrote: »

EdonilTebaun wrote: »

if somebody could explain to me exactly how DK's are so "overpowered"

I can't give you the math, but I can tell you a short story.

I am a templar and my friend is a NB. We were going through that dungeon where all the tigers are in that one hallway, like 6-8 a group and there is two groups.

Anyway, we were making our way down the hall, but it was a bit of a challenge for the two of us.

On the way back out we saw a solo DK, the same level as us, walk up to one group of tigers and kill them in like 3 seconds. He is life barely dropped at all.

I was very impressed.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have never asked anything to be nerfed and i never will, but that did blow me away.

I've seen things like that too, and usually just ended up sitting in my chair with my jaw on my desk. Most of the time, though, I thought it was another sorcerer since most of the time there was a clanfear and twilight harbinger following them around.

Maulkin

Welcome to DK thread #2718728.

Because the subject wasn't quite exhausted in the previous 2718727 threads...

RylukShouja

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

You need to focus on something... your stats and armor are all over the place.

All light armor, all Magicka and staff build you will be able to tank as well as you are now but have 4 times the DPS.

While this is entirely true...I think that's ridiculous. You shouldn't be able to tank in light armour...IMO, tanks should be wearing heavy armour, unless they have the ability to keep some magical armour (bound armour, DK spell, etc) up.

EdonilTebaun

RylukShouja wrote: »

So you are the unfortunate victim of the nerf bat...your chosen build was not overpowered, but ZOS seems to have chosen to use a battleaxe to perform class surgery rather than a scalpel. There is bound to be collateral damage.

Mostly likely true, I'll just weather out the storm and learn to work around what I'm left with.

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

You need to focus on something... your stats and armor are all over the place.

All light armor, all Magicka and staff build you will be able to tank as well as you are now but have 4 times the DPS.

Thank you for the suggestion. Though it doesn't fit with my idea of a tank, I can accept that it's a perfectly viable and valid alternative. Though I don't believe that it should actually be the case, much like RylukShouja said.

WebBull

They were, and now they have been nerfed twice. They are good now. However, they will be nerfed again at the same time other classes will be buffed. The DK elevator will continue going down to the bottom while the other classes elevators go up. It will be a classic overnerf.

Heishi

I believe the DK is considered OP in the dps role, not so much the tank. I have two DK, but both of them are dps test/non-standard builds. Neither of them are high level either (16 and 22).

The lv 16 one is an AoE beserker type using dual wield and medium armor. That one has Talons, but I haven't noticed a extreme magicka usage from them. Granted it's been a week or so since I was last on it.

My other is an old test build. Originally I started it in beta, then remade it when the game actually launched. He's a dark elf fire.. I don't even know what to call it. He wears heavy armor, high health similar to what you have in stats (1m, 2h, 1s ratio). He uses a bow. Basic combat flow for him is to use the bow AoE the make a circle of fire, use poison arrow to start dot ticks, use chain to pull/interrupt, slash with the fire claw for more dots, then use magnum shot to interrupt again push them back. For added fun he has the standard too. Out of all my builds he's oddly the most capable of taking down large groups (can take out about 6 higher level mobs without standard). He uses extended chain to be able to reach about as far as the bow. I actually do have destro staff as his secondary, but I've hardly touched it.

If I had to guess with what you have there, I'd say the skill points are too spread out. I could be entirely wrong though. I know also there's a lot of hate for DW being weak and under powered (I personally don't agree but it seems to be generally accepted). I do know Whirlwind is problematic in that it's tempting to use on a large group, but it's base damage is pretty low. It's damage increases as the enemies health is lower so it works for kind of a finisher and to do mild starting damage to others.

Amsel_McKay

EdonilTebaun wrote: »

RylukShouja wrote: »

So you are the unfortunate victim of the nerf bat...your chosen build was not overpowered, but ZOS seems to have chosen to use a battleaxe to perform class surgery rather than a scalpel. There is bound to be collateral damage.

Mostly likely true, I'll just weather out the storm and learn to work around what I'm left with.

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

You need to focus on something... your stats and armor are all over the place.

All light armor, all Magicka and staff build you will be able to tank as well as you are now but have 4 times the DPS.

Thank you for the suggestion. Though it doesn't fit with my idea of a tank, I can accept that it's a perfectly viable and valid alternative. Though I don't believe that it should actually be the case, much like RylukShouja said.

It may not be my idea of a tank either, but it IS ESOs idea of a tank. The fact is this build is to scattered and you need to focus. I have a full heavy DK S&B and he was fine until V1 and a full medium armor, 2hd DK that was a beast until VR3 none of these build though would be asked to group because DPS that is light/staff is the only one people want and sorc tanks are the color of the week...

EdonilTebaun

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

It may not be my idea of a tank either, but it IS ESOs idea of a tank. The fact is this build is to scattered and you need to focus. I have a full heavy DK S&B and he was fine until V1 and a full medium armor, 2hd DK that was a beast until VR3 none of these build though would be asked to group because DPS that is light/staff is the only one people want and sorc tanks are the color of the week...

So, looking at what I already have (since I'm determined to stick with a more traditional tank) would you be likely to suggest resetting my points to a heavy health/magicka build, heavy armor, retain the Ransack (for the taunt) and then just fill in with class abilities like talons (to lock things down) and fire breath (AoE damage)?

Granted, I probably won't get a lot of groups, but I still have hope that the class they built for survivability will be capable of actually tanking without resorting to light armor & staff. Then again, maybe I'm overly optimistic.

Evergnar

The "I'm making doing just fine in levels 1-50 with my build" just doesn't apply at other levels/areas. You can make just about any build work in the first 50 levels. Not saying you should change your build now but at some point you may have to.

I took the approach to play the build I wanted to as long and far as I could. Knowing that at some point I would have to work on my "Little Bo Peep" skill line.

Amsel_McKay

I would go 100% into health, you will then be able to glyph mana, and ransack is the only stamina ability you need (and that is even if the taunt portion is working, I'm not sold on that). You can tank everything in the game with that build, its just trying to convince groups. Solo takes a while to take down mobs and I have found 2HD is better solo / S&B group (If you want to stay true to the tank build)

EdonilTebaun

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

I would go 100% into health, you will then be able to glyph mana, and ransack is the only stamina ability you need (and that is even if the taunt portion is working, I'm not sold on that). You can tank everything in the game with that build, its just trying to convince groups. Solo takes a while to take down mobs and I have found 2HD is better solo / S&B group (If you want to stay true to the tank build)

I'll have to give the redistribution a try and see how that works. Since I only play the character with my spouse (templar healer) that gives me a little more leeway. While I prefer the aesthetics of the dual wield style, I'll definitely take a look at the 2HD.
Thanks for the suggestions.

Brutalis

The problem with these posts are they are started by folks who have yet to reach level cap... this one goes as far as to say they never PVP'd...

This thread should have disintegrated into the ether, since none of the OP's personal opinions are substantiated or valid. The immediate post after the initial post should have went like this. "You'll find out soon enough".... *Thread Locked*

EdonilTebaun

Brutalis wrote: »

The problem with these posts are they are started by folks who have yet to reach level cap... this one goes as far as to say they never PVP'd...

This thread should have disintegrated into the ether, since none of the OP's personal opinions are substantiated or valid. The immediate post after the initial post should have went like this. "You'll find out soon enough".... *Thread Locked*

Well, you're right about not reaching level cap, but I don't see anything wrong with asking for advice earlier on.
I do have a VR4 Nightblade who's currently getting wrecked (also a stamina build) in the Level 50+ content. As for the fact that I choose not to PvP, that's my personal decision. I have been in Cyrodiil on my NB and I wasn't very happy with the result, but that was my fault as I was solo.

Brutalis

I guess it your prerogative to "ask". But It should have been your intelligence to simply read the thousands other post on the subject and form your own opinion.

Instead you simply created yet another discussion because you were lazy or feel the need to have your own platform to state your opinion. If the latter is the case then refer to my last previous post.

AlexDougherty

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Welcome to DK thread #2718728.

Because the subject wasn't quite exhausted in the previous 2718727 threads...

271728 threads on the subject, 271728 threads.
Take on down pass it around.
289,624 Threads on the Subject.

Sung to 100 bottles of beer.
:O :O :O :O :O :O :O :O

Wifeaggro13

kieso wrote: »

You'll know when you see a DK with LA and Fire staff. Sadly it's only one build..

and they destroyed every other build to bring that one in line. ive no faith in the Zos team they made a great game . in concept its awesome End game implementation was just horrible. Zos is showing some out of the gate inexperience. Its very unfortunate because the team has a wealth of veteran designers in the midst. right now this game is casters on line for all classes . And i dont see any sign of it changing . ill play until Archeage release screw around there and likely come back in some months.
Currently the next juggernaught that will hit the market is EQ next and that game looks shady right now.