Since when is Questing...

Gisgo

Kililin wrote: »

I sometimes wonder if the difference between people loving the quests and people hating them is a reading habit.
If you love and read books and literature you probably dont think that quest texts are especially good.
If you never read anything otoh...

I love Literature, my house's walls are covered with history books, thats why i cant stand videogame's writing, and i wonder how you can compare the two if you really did read any half decent book.

And no, R. Salvatore does not count, thats not Literature, its trash.

Stratti

Ragekniv wrote: »

Any tiered leveling system requires the laborious task of grinding regardless of method.

If you enjoy it or if you don't, it doesn't change the mechanics of MMOs or the definition of grinding.

Calling it a laborious task belies your view that the journey through the content is a barrier to overcome in order to reach end game . This view is regretful. I grinded to v1 and a bit of Anamoly for a few hours. Now I am focussing on the journal main quests up to v9 quests at v6 . My toon is handling the mobs and I throughly enjoying the game.

I do a bit of PvP with more PvP focused guildies as well and I'm really enjoying the game

Elencha

Mercurio wrote: »

Crisscross wrote: »

Yeah, I was just talking about MMOs, because you don't "quest" in single player games... You kind of just play.

And here we are. THIS is the root philosophy that we're identifying as erroneous. Have you ever played a single player RPG? Have you ever done 'missions' in GTA or the hundreds of similar games that have quest/mission mechanics? What pojnt are you making here? Only MMO(RPG)s have quests that advance the story/progression?

What the issue is here - we have so many MMO'ers that aren't RPG fans at all. They have no history with genre. I always wonder why so many people that hate RPG mechanics attempt to play MMORPGs? They flood forums demanding that things like levels, gear, and stats be removed. That everything be perfectly balanced into a 2D fighter model. That all forms of progression are a 'grind'. You can find these topics in every MMO message board.

They dont want a world but a lobby so they can "grind" their game for the rewards while playing LoL or minecraft on the side for fun.

They don't want to play the games or achieve anything at all. It's all a means to the end. They just want to flex their e-peens before moving on the next FotM game.

RPGs have quests. they have levels. they have stats. and they have gear. whether it's a clever relabeling or not these are staples of the genre. ok I went a little off the reservation there

Yeah, I have to agree. I find that this entire forum reminds me of an old Reese's Peanut Butter Cup commercial.

"Hey! You've got your MMO in my RPG!!"
"Hey! You've got your RPG in my MMO!!"
Only, there's very little in the way of realization that they are two great tastes that taste great together.


/copyright infringement

Azzuria

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

@op, it's not but good luck getting some of these individuals to admit it. Grinding is killing the same mobs over and over again, like the trains in craglon. Just because some of you hate questing or are bored with it does not make it grinding.

I think far too many people see end-game as THE game. I know in Wildstar they've stated that the real game start at level cap. ESO never said that. While Craglorn came out rather quickly after release and there will always be people who devour new content like a fat kid devours cake, the exploration was always a bigger selling point for ESO.

I played a LOT of WoW and even after running through the same zones a few times, questing never really felt like a grind. Boring at times, not really intellectually or emotionally fulfilling as the first run-through, but it never felt like a chore.

ESO quests have never felt grindy. And whether or not you feel a story arc is 'epic', I find the questing satisfying. Not for the XP and not for the loot. I can make better and seem to be leveling faster than I want. I like questing to make a difference in Tamriel. With phasing, when I end a battle, it -stays- ended... and that makes me feel awesome.

Mablung

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

@op, it's not but good luck getting some of these individuals to admit it. Grinding is killing the same mobs over and over again, like the trains in craglorn. Just because some of you hate questing or are bored with it does not make it grinding.

Grinding in an MMO environment is anything deemed repetative by the gamer. Some people find killing mobs over and over again to be a grind. Others find questing over and over to be a grind. The principle is the same. The method is relative to the goal. Both are in fact a grind.

wafcatb14_ESO

getting to end game isn`t the thing i`m worried about or how long it take to level, if you played EQ back in 1999- 2004 you`d know what i meant , it took you days if not a week to get 1 lvl and that was actually playing a lot

What annoys me is the game is desgined as a single player game with no real replay value due to it being story driven and quest driven to lvl and they only have 1 zone every 10 lvls to go to . meaning every alt you make on the same faction has to do all the same quests you already completed because there is no other zone to go to other than rerolling to a different faction.

what they should have done is make their little pve quest grind for those that want to do quest all day , and also have the option to level purely in AVA for those that could care less about saving the realm and getting their soul back ,

I enjoying doing quest , for a rare magic item, a sword, ring, cloak etc i can`t stand having to do meaningless quest over and over just to get lvl exp .

So looks like i`m just gona do the 2 or 3 quest in each zone that grant a skill point and grind mobs the rest until next zone . repeat etc

Rev Rielle

Mercurio wrote: »

Everyone wants to play MMO(RPG)s these days, but none of them like RPG mechanics. I guess they didn't play the same games I grew up playing, where questing was the point : the only thing beyond stat advancement and exploration. Once you were done so was the game.

Yes, this (the above) pretty much sums it up.
People have lost touch it seems with what these games are about. They're always seemingly fighting to try and turn the game into something it's simply not.

xanikk999

Rosveen wrote: »

Any repetitive task is grinding. The key issue: "interesting content" is highly subjective. How many times can you save a village from <insert enemy here> before all the enemies look the same to you? It takes longer if you like listening to NPC stories, but even then they aren't all unique and start falling into the same patterns. And when you reach this point, there isn't much difference between saving the village and running the dungeon for the nth time. Especially when the reward is miniscule, like exp progress in veteran ranks.

People enjoy different things. Doing only one, no matter how well-designed, gets tiring.

This so much this.

I consider myself an rpg person but the quests in this game get so dull and repetitive after awhile even for me.

90% of quests are basically the same story.. kill X, save X, thank you now go to NPC B.

I have seen much better quest design from other rpgs not to mention mmos. I hope they do better in the future.

xanikk999

Other MMO Quests:

Quest Hubs: Where you pick up 5 quests, and run in each direction. Come back pick up another 5. -> Get another "talk quest" and move on to the next quest hub.

Generic Quests: Basically it's mostly kill 10 of that 10 of this. Or just pick up bear ass on every 2nd-3rd kill.

Number of Quests and Time it takes to do them: There is usually small zones with a lot of quests in them. However they are very basic and usually don't even take more than a minute, or max 5min per quest. In WoW I used to average about 200+ quests per day

Quest Depth and Story: Well if I take SWTOR out of the picture, quests don't really have any story, and there is definitively no depth. It's just mindless killing and looting. Mindset -> faster you're done with it, the better.

Quests XP: Well it's definitively not the fastest way to level, but still feels to fast. I ended up in pretty much every zone extremely overleveled. Not that it matters in WoW, as I could just pick up on the group of mobs that were 5 lvls higher than me with no problem at all.

This is ironic because I would definitly describe ESO's quest model as no different. ESO has its fair share of linear questlines and hubs and if you think the quests are full of depth and story well you are kidding yourself.

There are countless ways to ways to say "Save this town" or "Help me". No matter how you word it, it's the same experience.

ESO is no different IMHO.

Audigy

Azzuria wrote: »

Considered 'grinding'?

I see a lot of people complaining that they have to 'grind quests' in VR content.

Here I thought questing was the -point- of an epic fantasy game!

The same people who call questing 'grinding' also tend to complain about the lack of XP in dungeons and whine about not being able to level in PvP or by just slaughtering pack after pack after pack of mobs in the world.

Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?

I don't see questing as a grind, unless its a daily quest system like with WS and WOW.

To me a grind is something that you do continuously every time you log on, but this I don't see at ESO. All the quest´s are one timers, with a few exceptions that in my opinion should be adjusted over time like in pvp or Craglorn so that they can be done once only as well.

A quest should always be a one time journey in my books, just like any dungeon or raid. Unfortunately are many MMO´s these days about repeating the same things all the time, like the two mentioned above. It saves development time and cost´s a lot less money, guess why said games dont need such a huge budget like ESO did?
ESO is very far from being a grind, the only grind is Craglorn with the daily type of events and the trials and maybe they can find a way to improve that.

hk11

Kililin wrote: »

Darastix wrote: »

I hate questing, i never even bother to read the dialog since its nothing but dribble. I would rather just got out and wonder around killing what ever was in my path as i explore the areas.

I sometimes wonder if the difference between people loving the quests and people hating them is a reading habit.
If you love and read books and literature you probably dont think that quest texts are especially good.
If you never read anything otoh...

I love to read. I read every day. When it comes to MMOs I am the classic power gamer. I don't read anything unless I need to to progress. I love alts because then you can use the meta game to your advantage and make a more perfect character.

Check out this article from a book my friend published in the 80s. There are just different types of gamers.
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/models/robinslaws.html

Cody

I enjoy Vet zones, but I am also a little disappointed in them. I expected the veteran zones to have their own, unique storylines, and you fighting the enemy alliances, when they KNOW that you are a bada**, and knowing that they will utilize any means necessary to take you down. I DO NOT like this "alternate timeline" crap. and having to HELP THE ALLLIANCES THAT YOU SPENT 3 MONTHS FIGHTING. and none of them even at least knowing who you are. My other problem, is that the rewards are not worth it. I actually LIKED the storylines of the DC vet zones iv done so far, that is what kept me going. the quest rewards are down right pathetic, me getting only 200-300 gold for spending 30 frustrating minutes going thru a quest filled with groups of enemies, that are, because of the difficulty of vet zones, almost as powerful as mannimarco himself.... is... just no. The XP(its actually VP but im calling it XP) you get from them is very discouraging, and it forces a lot of people to completely change their play styles. it DOES feel like a grind sometimes. Again, I did, overall, so far enjoy the vet zones, but I am disappointed with what they turned out to be. maybe I just expected to much. idk.

Mablung

NookyZooky wrote: »

I enjoy Vet zones, but I am also a little disappointed in them. I expected the veteran zones to have their own, unique storylines, and you fighting the enemy alliances, when they KNOW that you are a bada**, and knowing that they will utilize any means necessary to take you down. I DO NOT like this "alternate timeline" crap. and having to HELP THE ALLLIANCES THAT YOU SPENT 3 MONTHS FIGHTING. and none of them even at least knowing who you are. My other problem, is that the rewards are not worth it. I actually LIKED the storylines of the DC vet zones iv done so far, that is what kept me going. the quest rewards are down right pathetic, me getting only 200-300 gold for spending 30 frustrating minutes going thru a quest filled with groups of enemies, that are, because of the difficulty of vet zones, almost as powerful as mannimarco himself.... is... just no. The XP(its actually VP but im calling it XP) you get from them is very discouraging, and it forces a lot of people to completely change their play styles. it DOES feel like a grind sometimes. Again, I did, overall, so far enjoy the vet zones, but I am disappointed with what they turned out to be. maybe I just expected to much. idk.

Wall of text is ...

Crisscross

Mercurio wrote: »

And here we are. THIS is the root philosophy that we're identifying as erroneous. Have you ever played a single player RPG? Have you ever done 'missions' in GTA or the hundreds of similar games that have quest/mission mechanics? What pojnt are you making here? Only MMO(RPG)s have quests that advance the story/progression?

What the issue is here - we have so many MMO'ers that aren't RPG fans at all. They have no history with genre. I always wonder why so many people that hate RPG mechanics attempt to play MMORPGs? They flood forums demanding that things like levels, gear, and stats be removed. That everything be perfectly balanced into a 2D fighter model. That all forms of progression are a 'grind'. You can find these topics in every MMO message board.

They dont want a world but a lobby so they can "grind" their game for the rewards while playing LoL or minecraft on the side for fun.

They don't want to play the games or achieve anything at all. It's all a means to the end. They just want to flex their e-peens before moving on the next FotM game.

RPGs have quests. they have levels. they have stats. and they have gear. whether it's a clever relabeling or not these are staples of the genre. ok I went a little off the reservation there

Um, yes I have? I think we'd be hard pressed to find a gamer who hasn't played GTA or Skyrim or one of Bioware's titles in this day and age.

"Questing" is "Questing" because there are other options to do within an MMO. I can choose to spend my play time "Questing", I can choose to spend my play time "PVPing", I can choose to spend my time "Raiding", etc. In Skyrim, there is only questing and crafting. In GTA, there is only questing and going on killing sprees. In Mass Effect, there's only questing, and I suppose MP if you count the third. I never said they don't have questing, it's merely that the term is redundant when "questing" is really just "the game".

The term is used to distinguish the activity when the game offers alternative play styles, which MMOs do (or should). You could use the term in some single player games sure, such as Mount and Blade for example, because "questing" there is a distinct entity within the game which is otherwise mostly about managing an army and conquering the map. For the most part, however, the term is lost on single player games, and yes - that's all we're really talking about here. Terms.

Now that I explained what I meant about the term "quest", let's talk about "grind", which is the topic of this entire thread. "Questing" becomes a "grind" because it's repetitive. Anything becomes a "grind" when it's repetitive. Mass Effect was an absolute blast, and I think many would agree with me on that. Play it over and over again, however, and I guarantee you at some point you'll feel like you're stuck in a "grind".

No one does that, however, because people simply stop playing single player games when they get tired of it, when it's "finished" for them. That's fantastic and all, but that cannot happen in an MMO, and especially not in an MMO with a subscription fee. MMOs, and in fact most multiplayer-driven games, are built for longevity; if they cannot sustain their players' attention, they die. Simple as that.

That's where endgame comes in. That's where raids and PVP come in. That's where daily quests, expansion packs, and the content treadmill come in. All that is well and good, and has been proven to work in the past. The problem is that ESO only dangles that stuff for you at the very end of this dreadful veteran rank grind. It doesn't matter that the quests are brilliant (and I do think they're brilliant), the fact of the matter is that I've already -done- them on my other characters, and I cannot progress via PVP and dungeons to break up the monotony like I could do in other games. Subjective as it may be, that's what alot of people are feeling, and that's why it's very valid to call ESO questing a "grind", no different than the more mundane quests of other MMOs. It's just a damn shame, because nowhere does it say that "good story" and "good MMO content" are mutually exclusive.

Schallen

If the questing wasnt so boring I wouldnt whine.

drogon1

For me, questing is grinding when there's too much of it and it's the ONLY viable way to advance your character. In most MMOs, players have a choice to level their character in a variety of ways: typically questing, dungeoning, pvp'ing. In ESO, only the first - questing - is viable pre-VR. VR content - doing the same quests you did on your alts from the other factions - is ... not a good design.

Elencha

I have to admit, I stand on both sides of this issue. I have two main characters, one in Daggerfall Covenant, and one in the Aldmeri Dominion. I love these stories, they are 98% of the reason I play this game at all.. I grab a cigarette and sit back when I find a book so I can read it. I am all about the questing. BUT, there is absolutely, positively nothing in me that wants to redo all of these quests on ultra hard mode. Dang that.
On the other hand, I understand and respect the reasons they made this decision. some people, perhaps even a lot of them, are going to make one character, and they'd like to experience all the stories too. I do wish there were some other content once that main quest is finished that didn't involve me duplicating quests I've already done, but, hey, games have to end sometime, right?

charles_crowe

Belitseri wrote: »

I admittedly agonized over the sacrifice of the companion for Molog Bal, I get gleeful when dealing with Sheogorath, I adore Cadwell...

Old uncle Sheo gets me in a good mood whenever I see him.

on topic: i quite enjoyed the story lines of the other factions, and was able to imagine "if I had washed up on another shore."

My chosen alliance was the EP, and I'm a Breton. Once I made it to the DC areas, I found myself instantly enamored with Jakarn and the rest of the Spearhead crew. I felt a sense of pride when I thwarted an attempt on Emeric's life.

When I made it to the AD areas, Raz quickly became my favorite character. I found myself actually enjoying the time I spent protecting Ayren.

With what little of Craglorn I've been able to do on my own, I've found it a great story, and fantastic expansion to TES lore.

@ZOS_Devs: you've really got something good here. I really wish some of this was canon. (Another Warp in the West maybe?)

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

2 character cant wait for vet lvl again, 1-50 too easy its dumb i like the questing grind, it is the point, it is an mmo, what's the rush really enjoy the game i say.

Catches_the_Sun

Azzuria wrote: »

Considered 'grinding'?

I see a lot of people complaining that they have to 'grind quests' in VR content.

Here I thought questing was the -point- of an epic fantasy game!

The same people who call questing 'grinding' also tend to complain about the lack of XP in dungeons and whine about not being able to level in PvP or by just slaughtering pack after pack after pack of mobs in the world.

Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?

I completely agree with you. The mentality of VR12 exists, therefore I must be VR12 ASAP is a player problem, not a ESO problem. This game has a great deal of content & it appears the majority of the playerbase couldn't give a skeever's arse...they'd rather just skip it, exploit past it, etc etc.

Enkil

If you have completed the quests once, they become a monotonous grind going thru them a second and third time. You are running errands and playing fetch for NPC's...clicking thru dialog that you've already heard before.. Already aware of what the outcome will be...

The quests are awesome the first time.. But we need more options where we can grind xp in dungeons or at fast spawns once you've been through the content, or as in my case you refuse to go thru the other factions content when it makes zero sense for that character. If I make an Ebonheart Pact dark elf, I do not want to do content in AD or DC unless it involves invasion, spying, subterfuge, etc.

Catches_the_Sun

FrauPerchta wrote: »

ESO is not a very well thought out game. The forced playing through other factions' zone is nothing but lazy Devs.

Lazy? This feature was requested by the playerbase during closed Beta and Zenimax delivered. I, for one, would much rather experience all of the content that ESO has to offer without having to create characters from the other factions.

Enkil

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

FrauPerchta wrote: »

ESO is not a very well thought out game. The forced playing through other factions' zone is nothing but lazy Devs.

Lazy? This feature was requested by the playerbase during closed Beta and Zenimax delivered. I, for one, would much rather experience all of the content that ESO has to offer without having to create characters from the other factions.

This "the players wanted it" is such a common refrain to excuse lazy development. Reminds me of a toddler that says "he made me do it" when they get caught doing something they shouldn't.

Do you honestly think players wanted to do the exact same content as a newb in that alliance?

Would it not be logical to assume that when people wanted to have the entire map available to them, they mainly wanted access to the map, dolmens, dungeons and environs?

Would people really prefer to do the same exact quests as if they made a character in that alliance... Or is it more likely they would prefer their veteran leveling experience in enemy factions to be unique and consistent with the storyline??

You know.. Spying, assassination, subterfuge, infiltration... Maybe even diplomacy and neutral mage/fighter/thief guild quests.

Hmm..... ?

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO

Enkil wrote: »

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

FrauPerchta wrote: »

ESO is not a very well thought out game. The forced playing through other factions' zone is nothing but lazy Devs.

Lazy? This feature was requested by the playerbase during closed Beta and Zenimax delivered. I, for one, would much rather experience all of the content that ESO has to offer without having to create characters from the other factions.

This "the players wanted it" is such a common refrain to excuse lazy development. Reminds me of a toddler that says "he made me do it" when they get caught doing something they shouldn't.

Do you honestly think players wanted to do the exact same content as a newb in that alliance?

Would it not be logical to assume that when people wanted to have the entire map available to them, they mainly wanted access to the map, dolmens, dungeons and environs?

Would people really prefer to do the same exact quests as if they made a character in that alliance... Or is it more likely they would prefer their veteran leveling experience in enemy factions to be unique and consistent with the storyline??

You know.. Spying, assassination, subterfuge, infiltration... Maybe even diplomacy and neutral mage/fighter/thief guild quests.

Hmm..... ?

Not that I am programmer, but I think making possible to replay other alliance quests with increased difficulty must have been the easiest job for them, so I don't think they coukd come up with something better if they did nit spend this little time on vet content.

BTW I don't like veteran rank system. I love to have a chance to play whole content with single character, but as I mentioned previously. This vet content should never make your character stronger in stats. It should have been optional and vet ranks shoukd have been only prestigue. Something like look at thus guy... He did a lot of content and quests... Also he was improving his player skills in more difficult content. Now it is... Oh well power leveler that will 2 shot me in PvP...

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Azzuria wrote: »

Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?

It's simple: grinding is having to something you hate because there are no viable alternatives which you prefer doing (if any alternatives exist at all).

So in this case, YOU like questing so don't see that others HATE it .. not sure what the pat-on-the-back you gave yourself by being too well-adjusted has to do with this.

steveb16_ESO46

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

Has it ocurred to you that maybe it isn't supposed to have endgame? The experience is the entire game itself, I dunno why MMO players can't wrap their heads around the idea of having most of the game's content available before the lvl cap.

I dunno why you can't wrap your head around the fact that we're telling you the whole VR faction grind against inexplicably super-powered trash mobs every 5 steps is a lousy game experience.

Zubba

Gisgo wrote: »

Since it has been forced by not having any other viable option to gain XP.

Cyrodiil is fine now after all the Changes. It's actually not slow at all to get VP/XP.

Archie

I think such complainers did not have to do the mindless and silly questing in most other MMOs.

Most quests in ESO are very well written, scripted and voice-acted. Some are full of surprises, pretty intriguing, with even dramatic climaxes. I have often felt like being part of a mini tv series.

While it is unbalanced, broken and buggy in some aspects, questing is ace in this game. Apparently too much of a good thing can be a bad thing for some people.

Magdalina

Cimos wrote: »

After about 7 days of playtime, even well written quests with great audio become boring.

You have to be a true hardcore RPGer (or have ALOT of drugs) to play/ listen/read/engage in every single quest in all 3 factions.

Usually around that 100-150 hours of playtime, players are tired of questing/leveling and are looking for more end game stuff: PvP, group PVE, end game gearing, etc.

ESO strength as an MMO comes in the first 100-150 hours of gameplay because the quests are so good. After that, its a sharp decline because of the lack of end game options.

...I feel bad now. I have thoroughly enjoyed EVERY SINGLE QUEST in 2 Alliances(EP and DC) with my char now while reading EVERYTHING chars had to say=( Is that really so wrong? I mean, TES has always been about questing, stories and npcs. Yes, some of the questing doesn't feel so fun because you always have that arrow to show you where to go but guess they had to do compromises between MMO and TES crowds. Me, I belong to the TES one, never played a MMO before.

Vet zones have a lot of problems - the difficulty of trash mobs is way over the top, provisioning ingredients don't scale and green rewards are ridiculous. However, exp rewards? Why do you even CARE? You get...what, +10 to every stat with each vet lvl? So that's +120 for ALL 12. And I think my (light) armor goes up by like...2 points a piece every lvl, the only reason I actually make new one is for the looks. What sort of magic bonus do you see at vet 12 that FORCES you to "grind" through those quests? You can access Craglorn at vet 1. Trials? Well, I dunno, maybe the +120 bonus could be a big help there but you can farm Craglorn if vet content disgusts you so.

That said, idea of going in different factions I'm supposedly at war with is indeed a bit odd. But I actually like the story, like seeing new scenery with this one char and all. Some quests might be repetitive, but a lot are not. I got to talk to a spider Daedra in Daggerfall(don't remember, think Alik'r...or was it Bangkorai?)!=D Non aggressive, just talked and looked at her up close for once, so interesting. I spent time with my favourite Darien in DC and now I meet Razum-Dar in AD who's very different but equally fun. You get to make choices that actually affect the game, in every zone. How can you just call all of it boring grind? I guess some ppl just have a different(standard MMO? I'm not sure) mindset which first says "MUST get to vet 12 for endgame content, ***, gotta grind for it, BORING...", then when they get there it's "***, no vet 12 endgame content, wth???" Not saying this is bad, to each their own, but clearly ESO devs had a different idea in mind.

steveb16_ESO46

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

It's amazing how many people claim to hate reading in an RPG. The people whining about grinding have clearly never played a Korean mmorpg.

I'm playing the alpha of the Trion conversion of ArcheAge (Korean) and apart from the story implementation (it being the standard respawning quest hub model) I'm afraid it beats ESO in every other respect.

• Combat is much better - if only because it actually works.
• Character and build flexibility is at least on a par but with more skills open to use at any one time.
• The landmass is huge and I can go wherever my nerve and skill can take me.
• Crafting is powerful, highly detailed and immensely rewarding.
• I can level up in numerous ways from crafting to exploration.
• Itemisation is incredible.
• It utilises the whole world from gliding to undersea exploration from ships you can build and own yourself using breathing apparatus you can craft yourself.
• Guilds have a real purpose. They can build castles from scratch, fleets of ships from scratch and then crew them in PvP battle etc etc.

This is what in many respects a next gen MMO looks like.

Sure - it takes a lot of work to craft your own catamaran. But hell - I can craft my own catamaran and sail across hostile waters, deep into enemy territory to make a valuable trade run should I dare.

So yes - technically building a catamaran from wood, fabric and iron I'd gathered and refined myself, purchased from the AH with gold i'd made questing and trading, or been given by guild friends, is 'grinding'.

But unlike tackling another 3 super-powered trash mobs, just to get to tackle the next and the next and the next and the next group of trash mobs just to get to the boss and complete another mission, it's fun and rewarding.

ESO has a great story (the alpha is still in Korean but it's by an large a text based Old School thing) and all things being equal I would rather play it.

But i'm sorry - compared to the Korean 'grinder' once you hit VR it becomes for me a joyless, repetitive and unrewarding grind.

But I love the Elder Scrolls series and would seize on any chance to stick with it but it has to be fun. Give me a proper VR story line for my faction, get class and skill balances working, cut out the super-powered trash mobs and i'm so there - catamarans and gliders be damned.