Why do MMO's have levels?

Kaloran

GreySix wrote: »

Phantorang wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Phantorang wrote: »

If you dont like the idea of experience points or level gain in any way, then you should go play The Sims or some other social mmo.

So EvE players are weak-kneed sissy-boys who should be playing The Sims in your eyes?

Interesting. Have you ever lost thousands of dollars in real money after losing an online battle?

From what I understand, in Eve you build a ship, slowly and surely your ship(s) get more and more powerful guns etc by continously creating and buying new stuff. I would call that the same system as leveling.

It substitutes for leveling. Could not a similar piece be adopted by a traditional RPG-based MMO like ESO? You could progressively build up better armor and weapons over time (much as ships in EvE), and level wouldn't even be a factor.

There is also a certain amount of player skill involved. Sure, I can pilot a T2-fitted Rattlesnake, but only in PvE. Someone flying a T1 Stabber, and knowing what they're doing, would turn my ship to slag...

GreySix

Kaloran wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Phantorang wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Phantorang wrote: »

If you dont like the idea of experience points or level gain in any way, then you should go play The Sims or some other social mmo.

So EvE players are weak-kneed sissy-boys who should be playing The Sims in your eyes?

Interesting. Have you ever lost thousands of dollars in real money after losing an online battle?

From what I understand, in Eve you build a ship, slowly and surely your ship(s) get more and more powerful guns etc by continously creating and buying new stuff. I would call that the same system as leveling.

It substitutes for leveling. Could not a similar piece be adopted by a traditional RPG-based MMO like ESO? You could progressively build up better armor and weapons over time (much as ships in EvE), and level wouldn't even be a factor.

There is also a certain amount of player skill involved. Sure, I can pilot a T2-fitted Rattlesnake, but only in PvE. Someone flying a T1 Stabber, and knowing what they're doing, would turn my ship to slag...

In a purely PvP setting, that should be the case. And in a PvE setting, some enemies would naturally be tougher than others, so knowing what to do (or not) in an RPG-style of game would still come into to play.

isengrimb16_ESO

Zone levels, I just took that as the tradeoff for making an MMO as opposed, to, say, Skyrim. I'm used to those from WoW. Yes, I can pretty much go anywhere I want to at any level (except Outland and Pandaria, which are level-locked) ... but I mustn't be surprised when the welcome bear eats me. Yeah, I've run across Northrend as a lvl 40 just to pick up the exploration experience, because it got to be more fun than questing on my 10th or so alt.

I'm going to disregard EvE here, not because I have anything against it, but because it doesn't seem to be an "rpg" per se. A better question the OP should have asked is, "Why do RPGs have levels" not MMOs.

Building a person is a bit different from building a machine; the skills and things we learn are not compartmentalized. Everything we learn can be used in other contexts, and is part of our overall life experience -the thing that experience points and levels try to reflect. That's something that's a bit clumsy and difficult to quantize. I think it should really be used to help judge the age of your character; one level equals so many years or vice-versa (at least in an MMO setting; tabletop, you have downtimes and gaps between stories, which helps age your character without making him godly at 25.) The problem is lack of an in-game time-sense in an MMO. Ever notice how fast Skyrim's default clock is? Not only are our characters immortal, but they don't age, either. Tabletop, your character should age over a long story arc - and with age comes character development; not just skills and abilities-wise, but personality-wise as well.

tl;dr - Computers lack soul, and raw numbers don't reflect overall human(oidy) development very well. Levels (ranks, etc) are just a clumsy way of reflecting overall life experience/development of personhood.

Shaun98ca2

Crisscross wrote: »

I have been asking this question ever since GW2. In all honesty, levels are just an antiquated and irrelevant system that are only still around because the tradition has been rooted so deeply that people fool themselves into thinking that it provides them with fun.

They are not a method to convey progression, all they are is a content gate. They aren't much different from WoW's long ass flight paths. They distract you with pretty scenery and 'the feeling of progression', when in reality all they're doing is padding your game time and giving you the minimum value for your subscription fee.

Levels lock you out of zones. Levels lock you out of dungeons and PVP. Levels prevent you from questing with friends. Levels even prevent you from wearing pretty armor. There's simply no reason for their existence. Just think about how many systems games have employed specifically to CIRCUMVENT levels; the sidekick system in CoH to allow lowbie players to quest with their high level friends, downlevelling in GW2 to allow the reverse, level brackets or upscaling for PVP in a myriad of games, item appearance transmutation to allow you to continue looking the same even after you've outlevelled the item... All levels have ever been is a hindrance.

They had a purpose long ago, when RPGs were mainly played with paper and dice, or as single player dungeon crawlers. MMOs, however, are a different beast entirely. I'm just glad other people are starting to realize this, and really hoping EQN doesn't flop so that perhaps future MMOs will follow suit and do away with the system entirely.

I don't think EQN will flop but the combat from the SLIGHT bit they showed looked.............

Well so far TESO's combat still is a better idea over all. BUT everything ELSE EQN HAS would have fit TESO perfectly.

TESO combat + EVERYTHING ELSE EQN has to offer in a TESO setting would have been an Elder Scrolls fan's wet dream come true lol.

Evergnar

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

levels don't bother me, level restricted content does, All elder scrolls games have levels but dont really lock you out of content for been underlevelled..

^This. In fairness I have no idea how else they could have done it, but that open world feeling is lacking because of it.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

epeens

Cimos

Go play The Secret World. It has no levels or classes. You just have to level the skills for your spec/build.

SFBryan18

Since enemies will always be as strong as the player for new quests, the levels are pointless and only exist as an illusion to give players a goal to reach. They also split the map up into different level territory which is ridiculously lame and not like TES at all, which would have all enemies always scale to your level. One bad decision made for this game.

TicToc

Tannakaobi wrote: »

If they didn't, then everyone could do what they want, as in dungeons, pvp, pve...

There could still be skill levels and gear stats...

I don't know why no one has thought of it... or at least no one with a decent budget.

Edit: also it would remove the 'end game' concept.

The thing is, having skill levels and gear stats is still leveling, it just isn't called levels. It would be an illusion. It would still require the game to make harder content for people with higher skills and better gear, thus it would not be a level playing field. People would still have to level their skills and gear to be viable, so there would still be an end-game.

That said, character progression is an important part of an RPG. If you remove that, as some suggest, then you really just have an action/adventure game.

Mablung

Zubba wrote: »

Eve Online don't have player levels. Only skill lines you train over time, even if you are offline. It's a way better system than player levels.

Every MMO that has come out with skill lines has been better than any leveling game. Eve and SWG just to name the most recent that come to my mind.

TheVindelator

I've played MMO's where the levels are very limited. GW1 and the secret world.

It makes things feel less epic. There's no journey. Just gear grinding which is just like leveling except with less character customization.

I'm sure some people love the concept but it's not my thing.

Tannakaobi

What is EQN

TicToc wrote: »

The thing is, having skill levels and gear stats is still leveling, it just isn't called levels. It would be an illusion. It would still require the game to make harder content for people with higher skills and better gear, thus it would not be a level playing field. People would still have to level their skills and gear to be viable, so there would still be an end-game.

That said, character progression is an important part of an RPG. If you remove that, as some suggest, then you really just have an action/adventure game.

Aye, you would need content that is difficult and content that is easy and content in between. But the difference between a well geared character and a not so well geared character would be much smaller. Skill levels would really help this as a not so well geared player that has spent all the points in one skill could be as strong as another character that has a more broad range of skills but, better armor. This would be more realistic. Done like this, maps would be far more versatile in difficulty. Hell, you could even add a big 'ding' at certain points in skill progression.

With levels it is expected that you can do all the content in one way or another that is level appropriate. The problem is people in themselves have differing levels of skill. With a no level system this is much more open to interpretation, so you could have really hard battles that will be challenging for anyone, impossible for some. But what is wrong with that? Every map could be mixed up in terms of difficulty, excellent for exploration. Maps would be a mutch better mixture of people so if you needed help, chances are someone really goos is around. Or you could likewise help out.

Character progression is an important part of an RPG, I agree, which is why you could use titles instead and more meaningful rewards. Most of the progression would be in improving skills, an ever ending target of perfection. i.e. max stats in every skill. With new skills coming as the game grows.

If a game has a hotspot for any reason, you would not be locked out from enjoying it while it's fashionable to do so. Which would open up possibilities for better made events in an ever changing world.

I can think of so many reasons why levels are not good for mmorpg's but only one in favor which is the illusion of progression.

Shaun98ca2

Youtube Search Everquest Next Worldwide Debut

The 1st 26 minutes is worthless and can be skipped its just artwork.

AlexDougherty

Tannakaobi wrote: »

What is EQN

EverQuest Next was the working title for a world builder program, where you can build the structures and vehicles you want.

But it's not a game, it's supposed to be a bootstrap into making games, not sure how well it will work. (at least thats what the reviews I've been reading, plus one interview with the lead designer, say)

Pele

The Secret World has no levels and no barred classes. Every skill available can be unlocked by all players. One character can be a DPS, a tank, and a healer.

Your gear and skill levels in different skill trees determines your power.

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

*How does this Secret World work? It's not "poke your weak little nose out of a city and get your face smashed by a heavy-armour clad dinosaur" is it? When I go into a _computer_ game, I want to be sure I have at least a chance to get by; so many computer games were so unfair to a starting character, it was sick.

You needn't worry about iron-clad dinosaurs smashing you to death in the starter zones. The roaming zombies probably ate them.

The zones get progressively difficult as your character progresses via skill unlocks. The dropped gear in zones are on par with zone difficulty, and you should be fine if you equip them and you've the right skills.

Tannakaobi

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

What is EQN

EverQuest Next was the working title for a world builder program, where you can build the structures and vehicles you want.

But it's not a game, it's supposed to be a bootstrap into making games, not sure how well it will work. (at least thats what the reviews I've been reading, plus one interview with the lead designer, say)

Yeah, I googled it, looks a bit dull imo, but then I'm not a fan of the whole cartoon thing. Why nearly all mmo's do this is beyond me.

I don't know why I put that. Well, actually I do. I was going to ask and then thought better of it. The site saved it and when I replied to another thread that was still there. I failed to notice.

But thanks all the same, I didn't know it wasn't a game though. I thought the building part was just an extra.

Does that mean there are no in game quests etc... It's all user based inventions? That sounds like Neverwinters foundry without Neverwinter. Sounds interesting.

yarnevk

Everquest Next does not exist yet, he is talking about Everquest Landmark, which is a building crafting open world sandbox game much like MineCraft just with a modern voxel engine. It has nothing to do with EverQuest Next gameplay other than using the same engine, it is not even the same world though they might have contests to create assets for EverQuest Next, you could also make scifi stuff instead if you want.

The disadvantage to open sandbox worlds is they are very hard to write main quests because you cannot just use place as triggers, which is why ESO zones exist, but instead you would have to track quest states and phase people based on that (which it does somewhat already with the choice quests)

Zones have nothing to do with megaserver and phasing because they already was able to add different player levels playing in the same zones with different mob difficulty, as that is what VR is. They are already changing it so people in different phases can see each other, but not quest with each other. It would be very easy to extend that to change mob difficulty to level within the range of the adhoc group fighting a mob, it is what Defiance and I am sure other MMO do this.