Unreasonable Weakness/Vulnerability

boris719b14_ESO

I'm certain this has been mentioned but I thought I'd do it the honors I may with my own words.

I am a V4 Khajiit Nightblade who wears medium armor and dual wields. I am a vampire as well. I wanted to address the utmost nonreasonability of survivability in this game, at least to me.

First off, I will give a circumstantial example. Despite knowing I'm a vampire, an ability called "pyromancer heatwave" hit me for 1889 damage. My maximum health is 1774, and that is with 31 attribute points in my health tree. Being one shot seems... a little ridiculous.

Beyond that, general attacks on me deal 300-450. Even melee attacks. That means that I have between 3-5 hits at most before I die. In a one on one encounter, not too big of a deal. But in the veteran ranks, most battles are 2-3 enemies. I specialize in sneak and with that I can typically take out one enemy rather quickly. That makes 2v1 situations easy enough, but 3v1 are risky. If I don't get a sneak attack, I'm dead. Simple as that. If I do get my sneak attack, I have to work really quickly to not die, and often use a potion if need be, simply because I have to split my attention and I can't interrupt an enemy if they walked away.

Listen, I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining. I know there are methods to deal with this. Whether it's fire resist enchantments, whether it's HP enchantments, whether it's splitting my resources between medium and heavy armor. I get it. But at the end of the day what makes this game great is you can theoretically do whatever you want. I've even had people tell me that I need to use the healing morph of the Path of Darkness ability in the shadow tree, along with siphoning skills, to continuously suck HP to keep myself alive. In any game there should be better methods over others. But the gap should be kept to a minimum.

I also am aware comments have been made from Zeni regarding working on the Nightblade in an ongoing way. I just can't wrap my mind around how it ended up this way in the first place. How is a medium-armor wearing nightblade getting blown to bits so easily, and when it's obvious many would go dual wield (it is a pseudo-rogue after all), that somehow that very preference is leading to disastrous results.


All in all, can anyone point out what I'm doing so terribly wrong? Maybe I'm just missing some huge point. My ability bar includes the following:
*Swallow soul IV
*Ambush IV
*Concealed Weapon IV
*Rapid Strikes IV
*Double Take IV

And my Ultimate I use is Soul Harvest IV, particularly because it costs little (50 ultimate) and I still use three pieces of the V1 shadow set to heal me for 354 HP when activated (15 second cooldown).

All advice will be appreciated.

Gisgo

No cloak means no armor buff from getting out of invisibility (check the passive skills of shadow), and no Ember explosion means you get hit a lot.

boris719b14_ESO

Gisgo, I get the armor/spell resist buff from coming out of sneak. Shadow Barrier is the passive ability and I have two points in it. I'm not sure what ember explosion is though.

Gisgo

The buff lasts for 4 seconds, you should get in and out of invi often during a multi pull to keep it up.

Ember explosion is a morph of uuuh... lemme check... sparks!

boris719b14_ESO

Gisgo, sparks is only on melee attacks and for 4 seconds for one target. I use double take because it gives a 15% miss chance to everything attacking me for 26 seconds, and an additional 15% for the first 3.5 seconds. So 30% for the first 3.5 and 15% for the next 22.5 seconds. Since it is for all attacks and all targets I've used that instead of sparks.

Gilvoth

I too am a nightblade dual wielder with medium armor who can't stay alive.

Gisgo

boris719b14_ESO wrote: »

Gisgo, sparks is only on melee attacks and for 4 seconds for one target. I use double take because it gives a 15% miss chance to everything attacking me for 26 seconds, and an additional 15% for the first 3.5 seconds. So 30% for the first 3.5 and 15% for the next 22.5 seconds. Since it is for all attacks and all targets I've used that instead of sparks.

They do stack.
Honestly it starts sounding like you dont want to be adviced.
If i could stay alive, maybe i was doing something right...

Valerien

Fully agree.

First off Vampire is a must have for a stealth build cause of the increased movement speed which is necessary. Everything else aside the AI in the game is very good, NPCs move they turn they look about. Slowly sneaking up on them is no good, you have to be able to move fast or they notice you, if your sneak is ruined and the low dps low survivability NB has a hell of a time.

This makes the high fire damage though impossible for the NB to counter. 1889 fire damage would be roughly 1250 to a non vampire, a little more manageable but still very high percentage of your health very quickly down. You can't take too many of them even with a health build and as anyone thats played the game knows more often than not you are fighting multiple opponents at once.

The need for a stealth build causes further problems for the nightblade. Not that stealth builds are only available to the Nightblade, anyone in medium armour can go stealth and shadow a 2.5 invis is worse than most invis potions and doesn't work everytime. Sadly though as DPS builds go the Nightblade has to use stealth even as far as what survivability is available its enhanced coming out of stealth or invis.

The Nightblade needs more options for dps so they aren't so dependent on stealth. And on the whole something needs to be done about the high damage to keep it inline with the options available to the potential builds.

Gisgo

Valerien wrote: »

First off Vampire is a must have for a stealth build cause of the increased movement speed which is necessary

No it isnt.
This is turning from a "i need help" thread to a whine really really fast.

boris719b14_ESO

Gisgo, I wasn't just asking for help. The point of the matter is that I shouldn't have to use two of my five available abilities on dodge abilities - one of which is single target. In that respect I'd heavily be relying on luck to not get hit.

I completely understand your recommendations. I didn't think they don't stack, as one is a self buff I can enact before battle while still in sneak. But you're reiterating the point too that in order to play the class, the implication is that you HAVE to do these things or you die. What kind of game is that, where you have to have two of your five abilities decided upon before anything because you'll die unless you use them? That's not sandbox. That's not customizable. That's not "play whatever style you want." That's "if you want to do it this way, you have to use this stuff or die." That's not a very realistic, fun, or even practical approach to class balance and development.

Gisgo

Nonono.
There are many ways to stay alive, i only suggested what i did as a DW NB.
It worked and got me to VR12.
Im sure someone else will suggest you different skills/builds to do the same thing.

Play like you want doesnt mean go in battle with a skill bar that doesnt make sense and expect to stay alive.

Ambush is doing nothing for you, in PVE, replace it with something that helps you staying alive. The cloak would be much better, as it would give you an armor buff and a stamina regen.

Also check blood craze.

boris719b14_ESO

Ambush is a stun and it boosts the damage of my next attack, which helps for my ultimate and for getting between opponents. I don't know what blood craze is.

Gisgo

Ambush is a gap closer that will boost your damage for the next attack. For ONE attack.
Its really good in pvp, not so much fighting packs in pve.

In fact, it sucks fighting packs in pve.

If you used Shadowy disguise instead, you would have your next attack do even more damage on top of an armor/spell resistance buff and a stamina regen.
What do you think is better?

Be open minded and try new stuff.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArII4nGY0Yf3dC0xM0YtQ3phVnNjUVdCbkJkaUl3VWc&usp=sharing#gid=0

seneferab16_ESO

These are the abilities I use facing a group of 3 or more Vet mobs and why:

Quick esohead Skill Calculator. No passives/gear included.

I always go for the ranged/caster first. Engage with my bow and start off with a Focused Aim, quickly followed by another and maybe a third if your location is good. Then I do Crippling Graps (NOTE: this ability is bugged and will break Dark Cloak, so only ever use it if you know you won't have to cloak soon) and nuke with bow followed by an Impale or two. The mob should be dead.
I activate Haste and switch to my melee bar where I Funnel Health, then Dark Cloak and Concealed Weapon on the second mob. The third mob usually open with a special or heavy attack so I ignore the stunned mob and block/dodge/bash. Dark Cloak and Concealed Weapon on first mob again, followed by a heavy attack.
If the third mob is causing me too much trouble I switch to Utility bar and fear it, switching back again to Funnel Health, Dark Cloak and Concealed weapon. If the mob dies slowly I activate Leeching Strikes so I can keep popping in and out of stealth. I spam Impale as soon as it reaches 20%.

Sometimes I get in trouble from the go, and will stay with my bow, repeating fear/cripple/heavy attack. In these situations I wish I had switched Haste and Leeching strikes with each other. I am still not sure which one I like on which bar.
Haste does not currently work with a bow.


Edit: I have not yet seen social behavior from feared mobs, so don't worry about fearing it in the wrong direction and accidentally pulling a second pack.

seneferab16_ESO

Valerien wrote: »

First off Vampire is a must have for a stealth build cause of the increased movement speed which is necessary.

Wat?
http://esohead.com/skills/36238-concealed-weapon

seneferab16_ESO

Gisgo wrote: »

Ambush is a gap closer that will boost your damage for the next attack. For ONE attack.
Its really good in pvp, not so much fighting packs in pve.

In fact, it sucks fighting packs in pve.

What Gisgo said. Ambush is not a PvE skill, and it will cause mobs to do more damage to you in a shorter amount of time, as you'll ambush in smack in their faces, conveniently in melee range. If you pull them from afar and use Crippling Grasp, they will reach you one at a time, and you will have much more control over the fight.

boris719b14_ESO

Senef, they stack. I now sneak faster than normal run (not sprint).

Also, I have put cloak back on the 5th slow and put focused attacks in my second instead of ambush. I imagine the strategy of open with concealed weapon, kill with rapid strikes, then cloak and do those two attacks to another target will be pretty potent. I may get rid of focused attacks for sparks at one point. since i can use my weapon swap to activate the 26 second double take ahead of battle and regen my mana before I start. I'll see how this goes. I appreciate the feedback.

Gisgo I have no idea how to read that table but if you can explain it I feel it would be useful

seneferab16_ESO

boris719b14_ESO wrote: »

Senef, they stack. I now sneak faster than normal run (not sprint).

It's still not a must have. But if you really want to keep that insane speed, but ditch Vampire, look into the Shadow Dancer set. I move faster than other people sprint in that thing if coupled with Concealed Weapon.

boris719b14_ESO

seneferab16_ESO wrote: »

boris719b14_ESO wrote: »

Senef, they stack. I now sneak faster than normal run (not sprint).

It's still not a must have. But if you really want to keep that insane speed, but ditch Vampire, look into the Shadow Dancer set. I move faster than other people sprint in that thing if coupled with Concealed Weapon.

Sadly shadow dance is light armor. If it were a crafted bonus for medium armor I'd consider dropping vamp and picking up the set. And you're right, it may not be a must have as long as I have concealed weapon. We'll see if I drop it at some point.

crislevin

try Craglorn, every mob is 5-6 in a group.

seneferab16_ESO

boris719b14_ESO wrote: »

Sadly shadow dance is light armor. If it were a crafted bonus for medium armor I'd consider dropping vamp and picking up the set. And you're right, it may not be a must have as long as I have concealed weapon. We'll see if I drop it at some point.

Ahh, yes you are right. I am only using it to scout with and have it bound through http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info52-WykkydsOutfitter.html with a medium armor disguise over. I completely forgot it was light.

Anyways, good luck with testing your new build. I'm no expert at melee NB, as I leveled mine as a PvP siphoning healer, but it's working so far for me now that I am soloing my way through veteran content.

Vandril

boris719b14_ESO wrote: »

Gisgo I have no idea how to read that table but if you can explain it I feel it would be useful

You find the skill you want to know about it and mouse over it (or click on it). A little frame will popup with details about the ability and, if you scroll down the frame, explanations of that ability's two morphs.

For something more alike the in-game skill menu, go here: http://www.esohead.com/calculator/skills#mcsz9s85bzz7zztyfm8zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

I chose Khajiit as your race and Nightblade as your class already, in the above URL. You can navigate the menu now to find the abilities people are talking about. But keep in mind that many of the numbers in this skill calculator are completely wrong. Even so, it should give you a basic idea of what people are saying.

A few other notes:

1. While Sparks is single-target 100% melee miss chance for four seconds, Ember Explosion, one of its morphs, is an AoE 40% melee miss chance for four seconds AND some mild damage. If you have a group of three mobs or more that melee, one use of Ember Explosion is more beneficial than one use of Sparks, though, if you have the stamina to waste, multiple uses of Sparks on different enemies back-to-back can have a greater effect. It's a bit of a trade off and a tactical decision.

2. Blood Craze is one of the morphs to Twin Slashes from the DW skill line. It causes the bleed to heal you for a seemingly insignificant amount. However, from my experience, this bleed heal stacks with itself if you throw the bleed on multiple mobs. I haven't tested it to see for sure, but it felt like it worked this way when I used it, so I threw the bleed on EVERYTHING.

3. Trust me, there is more than one way to survive VR levels as a DW NB. I leveled every class, weapon and armor tree while in VR leveling zones, using a variety of skills in each "build" that I made to do so. There is not merely one way to survive, but a surprising variety of ways.

4. The "play as you like" slogan should not and cannot, in a game with interesting abilities, mean that you can slap any combination of 5 abilities on your bar and perform just as well as everyone else. That would require every ability to do more or less the same exact thing. Besides that fact, there's also a lot of balancing left to do in this game before it really starts feeling more like a "play as you like" game.

boris719b14_ESO

Vandril, the point of focus for me is your very last point. This game really needs a lot more balancing. It saddens me that it goes back to the pay-to-beta mentality that frustrates so many out there, including myself. The amount of absurd changes that have been unbelievably brazen since the game's release have been astonishing. Even now I am struggling.

In fact, the reason I'm even making this post is because I had to try a fight that I died on, but It dropped me to 0 HP and registered me as dead, even though I was still running around, so I had to log out.

Gisgo

Im not sure blood craze stacks, didnt pve lately, but its a great opener, doesnt require a lot of stamina, does really good damage over time, and heals you for a decent amount.

In fact you could take on three mobs packs by just alternating shadow cloak and blood craze.

boris719b14_ESO

Black winter from a harvester: 1723 damage. Chasten: 689 damage. Two attacks, that's it. Not even fire type. That's just absurd.

Gisgo

"Insanity is doing same thing all over again and expecting different results".

Albert Einstein

Vandril

Dodgeable and interruptible, as well as power attacks which are meant to be blocked, will all do absolutely deadly levels of damage in VR levels. Most attacks that do over 1,000 damage can be avoided, either by dodging or just getting out of the way of the attack's path (like that fire spell that most pyromancer NPCs use that travels swiftly along the ground but only damages you if the projectile actually hits you).

The only things that don't fit into one of these three categories are normal melee hits which can hit for 300-800, depending on VR level of mobs and your gear, and enemy instant-cast melee special attacks, which can do the same as their normal attacks, generally.

The trick to surviving VR damage is to not play offensively. I would know, as with my Nightblade, I leveled from 1-VR3 in a purely offensive burst build: light armor, all magicka class skills, magicka potions, etc. I was forced to abandon this for a more balanced (between offense and defense) set of builds when I decided to level my other skill trees.

To survive VR damage, you want to dodge what can be dodged, move out of the way for things that you can get out of the way of, interrupt what can be interrupted, and block what can be blocked. In addition, you also want at least one defensive ability OR CC ability that can be used to mitigate incoming normal attack and instant-melee skill damage AND at least one ability that can heal. It also saves you a lot if you keep with you an up-to-par health potion for your level.

Often, for DW or for Nightblade's that use the Siphoning tree's skills for example, the defensive ability can be a healing ability that also does hefty damage. Or you can use a purely defensive ability. Either way, your remaining three abilities can be offensive ones, if you wish, or you can stock up on yet another defensive/CC ability, or whatever you so wish.

Personally, when I was leveling DW alongside my heavy armor skill lines, I used something similar to this setup for my bars (I used 1H/Shield as my second set, as I had just finished leveling that line): http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#mczzty9Mk9MWmwg8w2BO8w2l48w2Ct8GHRl8IPUI8GHRG8IPbk8fXhg8fXhs8fXut8IPUI8Ir3D8T7JcrqLw6MrqAi6MrqAZ6MrqAI6MrqAD8y7HrR3b6LR3a6LR3d6MfQlu6MfQE16MfQlr6MfQE36MfQlI8t7HLsgZ6rsgY6rsg16MwS3c6MwYlv6MwYle6MwUlN6MwYl28C7JLzqu6mzqG8D7DLzdR8F7xLzrJ6rbut8zc7pzgeXm6cgePB6cgeXA6cgeYc8zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

boris719b14_ESO

Thanks for taking the time to write that @Vandril, I appreciate it. I think I might pull out the siphoning strikes. With haste and sparks alongside that I think I might get some really good survival out of it. I'll give it a try this weekend.

Worstluck

Dark Stalker is very nice for PvP; I hate pvping without it if I am stabby stabby specced. I don't think it's necessary for pve at all. So if you don't care about pvp or don't plan on doing it much, I would drop Vampirism.

My questing pve bar looks like this:

Dark Cloak or Shadowy Disguise
Surprise Attack or Concealed Weapon
Impale or Killer's Blade
Siphoning Strikes (the key)
Stamina Dump - Blood Craze, Ember Explosion, Flying Bade or more utility from class skills if you want.
Soul Harvest ultimate

I play a magicka build mostly, so that allows me to cloak A LOT, which is key to survivability. I toggle on Siphoning Strikes when I need it, or just leave it on when I see groups of three.

For my second bar I use a resto staff. I put a couple heals, but I also will put Volcanic Rune for tough groups of three, Dark Shades and Quick Siphon for bosses. I also always have Veil of Blades on my second bar for bosses or really tough groups.

Vandril

boris719b14_ESO wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to write that @Vandril, I appreciate it. I think I might pull out the siphoning strikes. With haste and sparks alongside that I think I might get some really good survival out of it. I'll give it a try this weekend.

Glad I could help.

Feel free to ignore the below if you already know what you want to do or if you don't want to read all of this. :P

Assuming you're sticking with only Duel Wield weapon sets, I recommend you do something like this: http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#mcsztt0k9cW08IPbk8w2Ct8w2l48IPS08IPUI8GHRG8IPbk8w2BO8w2l48GHRH8IPUI8Ir3D8L7NLkLu8p7JcdBET6MdBvj6MdBEI6MdBvT6MdBEp6LkHY8t7HMwS3c6MwYlv6MwYle6MwUlN6MwYl26LsgZ6rsg16rsgY8C7JMGFWc6MGFWA6MGFWn6Lzqu6rzqG8D7DMIrEf6MIsaM6MIrv36MIrEh6LzdR8F7JMIPNU6MIPAT6MIPAv6MIPAh6LzrJ6rbut6rbux8O7zzAZqS8P7kcLncn6cLncp6zLyjz6zLp4d6LdYf8Y7sMjFYi6MjFYh6zjFYf6zjFYb8zz7pztyfm6ctyfV6ctyrG6ctyfR8zf7MzNbo6MDVRH8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7RzHQ3F6cHQ4a8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

Overview
Swallow Soul on both bars to ensure you're always getting the 10% healing bonus, Heated Blades on both bars to ensure that you always have access to your strongest defensive - will also increase the damage of Whirling Blades if used right before it, and Leeching Strikes on both bars to ensure that it never drops when you switch weapon sets (I accidentally died to this a few times, myself). Blood Craze, Focused Attacks, and Veil of Blades on one bar (the "defensive" bar), while Whirling Blades, Power Extraction, and Soul Harvest are on the other (the "offensive" bar).

First Bar - Offensive/Finisher
Swallow Soul should be kept up at all times for the heal. Leeching Strikes allows you to spam quick attacks for health gain, as well as keep your Stamina generally filled enough to where you can keep Heated Blades on two targets 100% of the time for as long as you need - not kidding, you can make two targets unable to hit you if you don't use stamina elsewhere. Power Extraction can be used to help mitigate the damage reduction from Leeching Strikes, or to prepare for the group finisher of Whirling Blades. Whirling Blades does a LOT of damage to targets under 20% health, which makes it the ideal finisher for 1v3 combat - however, it's costly, so watch your stamina carefully and turn off Leeching Strikes before you use it. Soul Reaper (ultimate) is on the bar but really shouldn't be used. It's there to help speed up ultimate gain, so that you can use Veil of Blades on your second bar.


Second Bar - Defensive/Utility
Swallow Soul, Heated Blades, and Leeching Strikes are on this bar as well, for the same reason as they're on the first bar. Blood Craze should also be kept up on at least one target at a time for the heal, but can be placed on as many targets as needed - the heal will work for every target effected, because it is not a self buff (or so I believe - I have not thoroughly tested this, but it seems to work this way for me). Focused Attacks not only increases your Stamina Regen, but also raises your attack speed substantially, which increases both your damage per time and the speed at which you regain resources with Leeching Strikes, making it key to the build - keep it up at all times and pre-use it before battle. Veil of Blades is not only your best defensive Ultimate as a Nightblade, but also your strongest offensive Ultimate - it does more damage to each individual target than any of your other Ultimate's will ever do, all the while reducing damage you take by 60% AND slowing your enemies by 70%.

Swap-Outs
I highly recommend keeping Swallow Soul, Blood Craze, Focused Attacks, and Leeching Strikes where they are on your bars, no matter what you're facing. Everything else can be swapped out as you see fit for each fight. The build I linked has skill points put into most of the important swap-out skills. If you're surrounded by over 5 mobs, you might want to swap out Heated Blades on one of your bars for Elusiveness - pre-use elusiveness before the fight and reapply as needed, while using your other bar for Heated Blades. Another VERY IMPORTANT example is against caster bosses: the Light Armor use ability, Annulment, and its morphs, are VERY VERY useful and the ONLY way I was able to solo most caster mobs - use this before every enemy cast, use Leeching Strikes to keep your Health and Magicka up, use Blood Craze to top off your health, and interrupt every cast time spell the caster boss tries to use, and you'll find that you literally can't die to them 1v1 - you should replace Heated Blades with this in cases like that. The last prominent Swap-Out ability example is the Fighter's Guild's Circle of Protection ability and morphs. The armor and spell resist this gives is a godsend, and it lasts for a long duration, unlike the Heavy Armor use ability - if you really need some extra defense against a group of enemies, you can replace Power Extraction with this - it's also useful against ranged-damage (bow) bosses and, of course, Daedra.

These Swap-Out abilities are also good alternatives to use on your bars if you've yet to learn the other abilities.

Attributes
As should be common sense, if you're still dying with a more defensive build like the one above, try getting health enchants on all your gear, or sacrificing some stamina points to put points into health. It may not seem like it at a glance, but, especially with Leeching Strikes feeding you some of your max health every hit, a little bit of health in this game goes a long way for survivability.

Conclusion
It'll take getting used to, but once you have this build down, I daresay that you'll have trouble dying even when you want to! Good luck!

babylon

boris719b14_ESO wrote: »

I shouldn't have to use two of my five available abilities on dodge abilities

You have two bars = 10 abilities + choice of 2 ultimates.