balancing the game in the wrong direction

Makasu

I am sure by now most of us have know about the recent update and nerf applied on DK.
I hope the game developer could seriously look hard at your game and think what are the direction and plan for ESO online.

To be honest, i am fine with most Nerf until the recent Nerf on standard.
Do you know that planting standard require timing and skill compare to most ultimate that deal direct high damage( example ; soul assault)

In pvp, we have to anticipate player stamina and resource before we could finally plant standard and get a kill. Having say that, it still can be easily counter with just a dodge.

Rather than placing so much attention on balancing, why not focusing on fixing bug
or bluffing others class.

Game can never be balance. Each class should have their own role and uniqueness.

DK is mend to be good with crowd control and tank
NB is mend to be good in sneak & kill
Sorcerer is mend to be mobile. hit and run is what make them unique.
Templar are great support

Just because some player whom play on other class can't tank and play like DK,
does not mean we should nerf and make it the same.
If you want to tank and have crowd control, go start a DK.
If you love healing and support, play a templar.
If you love to backstab and sneak play a NB
if you love to hit and run, play a sorcerer (bolt escape)
Isn't this should be the way?

If you are worry about DK soloing in dungeous with their fire ability, instead of reducing our damage, why not increase the fire resistance of mob. This apply to other class.
Increase elemental resistance will on the other hand encourage team work.

From what i see, this game have lost it original purpose. I am really disappointed and
disheartened to see what 's coming. Well guys, time for me to move on. Bye

nerevarine1138

No class is "mend[sic]" to do any one thing. Stop applying a WoW/other-class-based-MMO mentality to these issues.

The issue that they were fixing had to do with one class's abilities making it able to solo endgame group content. That's not balanced, and altering the enemies would simply make it harder for everyone, still leaving one class severely unbalanced.

Oh, and no quitting threads, so I'm in before the lock.

Emperor

@nerevarine1138‌
They aren't meant to do just one thing, but there IS a reason there are 4 classes instead of just 1. They DO have their unique'ness to them and it SHOULD stay that way.

As far as the nerf goes.. meh, I will still use my Banner and I believe it is still better than most of the ultimates out there.

nerevarine1138

Emperor wrote: »

@nerevarine1138‌
They aren't meant to do just one thing, but there IS a reason there are 4 classes instead of just 1. They DO have their unique'ness to them and it SHOULD stay that way.

As far as the nerf goes.. meh, I will still use my Banner and I believe it is still better than most of the ultimates out there.

Yes, all the classes have unique abilities and strengths, but none of those unique abilities or strengths make the class any better suited to just one of the holy trinity of roles.

Every class can be equally good at healing, damage, or tanking. Period.

Emperor

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

@nerevarine1138‌
They aren't meant to do just one thing, but there IS a reason there are 4 classes instead of just 1. They DO have their unique'ness to them and it SHOULD stay that way.

As far as the nerf goes.. meh, I will still use my Banner and I believe it is still better than most of the ultimates out there.

Yes, all the classes have unique abilities and strengths, but none of those unique abilities or strengths make the class any better suited to just one of the holy trinity of roles.

Every class can be equally good at healing, damage, or tanking. Period.

@nerevarine1138‌
That is never going to happen. It would be impossible unless there was just 1 class. If they made all the classes have exactly the same ability to do any of the trinity roles then there would be absolutely no point to classes.

People are taking this "play the way you want" and spinning it way out of hand. In my opinion Zenimax did what they promised. They made it so any class can tank, DPS, or heal. That doesn't mean every class will do those things equally, but they can do those things pretty efficiently if they want to. Most other games don't offer anywhere close to that experience.

dodgehopper_ESO

Templar is meant to be support alone? Really? Please explain the aggressive nature of the debuffs and damage behind Dawn's Wrath, or the in your face tanky at least style they were going for with Aedric Spear. Explain the Knight Attire that your character has displayed in character generation. You're completely wrong about this. Templar is more than just a Support class. They meant to give Templars Buffs, Debuffs, Heals, Damage and Tanking. The way things actually were done in practice could have been done better. Instead of Debuffs, other classes got better CC. That would be all well and good if the lions share of Templar abilities weren't so situational. Situational is fine when you've got 30 powers on a tray to choose from, a little less helpful when you've got 5 and 5 + 2 ultimates at best.

I think your point of view on Nightblade is likewise wrong. The point of view on Sorceror is slightly right, and your view on Dragon Knight is correct, except you neglect the point that it is also meant to do damage and lots of it. In reality all classes are meant to have a Damage Dealing role if you've built for it.

In many ways I wish this game never had classes. I'd be fine with having a way for us to 'complete' a class and then start to pick up other classes skill lines. Perhaps that would be a solution, perhaps it would open up a whole new can of worms, I don't know.

nerevarine1138

Emperor wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

@nerevarine1138‌
They aren't meant to do just one thing, but there IS a reason there are 4 classes instead of just 1. They DO have their unique'ness to them and it SHOULD stay that way.

As far as the nerf goes.. meh, I will still use my Banner and I believe it is still better than most of the ultimates out there.

Yes, all the classes have unique abilities and strengths, but none of those unique abilities or strengths make the class any better suited to just one of the holy trinity of roles.

Every class can be equally good at healing, damage, or tanking. Period.

@nerevarine1138‌
That is never going to happen. It would be impossible unless there was just 1 class. If they made all the classes have exactly the same ability to do any of the trinity roles then there would be absolutely no point to classes.

People are taking this "play the way you want" and spinning it way out of hand. In my opinion Zenimax did what they promised. They made it so any class can tank, DPS, or heal. That doesn't mean every class will do those things equally, but they can do those things pretty efficiently if they want to. Most other games don't offer anywhere close to that experience.

The classes already do all things equally well, because your role in groups is determined by your weapon selection more than your class abilities. The way that you fill that role and the perks/synergies that you bring to a group are going to change based on your class. That's all.

BBSooner

Sorry, a selling point for the game is to play how you like on whatever class/weapon choice you want. Just because you choose to pigeon hole classes in to roles doesn't mean that is the direction the developers have chosen to go. In fact, it's the opposite of what they're working towards.

Emperor

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

Viblo

I thought this was play as you wanted. My guy has legs, I wanted to have a guy with no legs that I called Stumpy. What the hell ZOS? So we can't play as we want?

steveb16_ESO46

'Play how you want' is open to a wide range of interpretations. One of those being that a Nightblade playing with bow and dual wield should be effective.

Emperor

@Viblo‌
You accurately portray whiners on this game more than you think lol

Emperor

This is bull, I want to play as I want too!! I want to fly and one hit people from the clouds in PvP. I also want to be emperor for 24/7. It's sooooo dumb that I have to fight other people for emperorship. I mean come on, look at my name. Obviously I should be emperor!

BBSooner

Emperor wrote: »

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

Which is fine, and how multiple tanks (for example) in other MMOs works. Mitigation tanks, drain tanks, hp tanks, evade tanks, heal tanks, pet tanks, dps tanks, etc. They are different but (ideally) equal - or at least equal enough to complete the same content with the same level of difficulty. That is the premise behind the roles fitting in each of ESO's classes.

kieso

yeah we all know casters are meant to be mobile..

steveb16_ESO46

Emperor wrote: »

This is bull, I want to play as I want too!! I want to fly and one hit people from the clouds in PvP.

There's a bot for that probably.

Selstad

I don't know why but when nerfs are done to classes because the class was obviously way above where they should, I always hum "cry me a river". Regardless of what MMO I'm reading up on.

So DKs are knocked back a bit so it will be easier to balance and buff other classes that needs it? Wow, so sad, much tears, very crying.

It shouldn't come as a surprise, it shouldn't be so much crying, it was inevitable that they had to do something with the DK class in comparison with the other classes. One class to rule them all isn't how you build an MMO.

Kililin

BBSooner wrote: »

Sorry, a selling point for the game is to play how you like on whatever class/weapon choice you want. Just because you choose to pigeon hole classes in to roles doesn't mean that is the direction the developers have chosen to go. In fact, it's the opposite of what they're working towards.

But everyone is pigeon holed into light armor and staff?!

Ser Lobo

Emperor wrote: »

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

A skill, doesnt' mean a capability.

My nightblade can make a very, very effective tank. He has skills which work great in keeping me up and fighting. Oh, but that was the DK's role, no?

Oh, and Nightblade healers aren't terribly bad, either. Damn, wait, that's only for templars.





My real point, is that the difficulty of the game is probably going to be set where templars and nightblades are right now ... NOT on the solo-group dungeon pwning that DK's and Sorcerers represent.

Even if they did buff the rest of the classes to be on your level, they'd then increase the difficulty of the mobs so that when you went into a group dungeon (unless you are incredibly skilled, as a rare few nightblades and templars demonstrate now), you need a group.

This is why Nightblades don't get one huge fix. We're actually as strong as they want us to be, roughly. They add a fix, and usually add a nerf to balance it out. All in small changes, to make sure they don't upset our balance.

But sorcerers and dragonknights are seeing far more nerfs. The reason being, is that you are doing far better than they intended you to do.

Makes sense to me.

Viblo

But everyone is pigeon holed into light armor and staff?!

Let me interpret. By using the word "everyone" he means the min/maxers and those that internet search to find the min/max build so they can claim to be the best. The use of "everyone" does not include those that just play the game. Just to clear things up.

Makasu

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Templar is meant to be support alone? Really? Please explain the aggressive nature of the debuffs and damage behind Dawn's Wrath, or the in your face tanky at least style they were going for with Aedric Spear. Explain the Knight Attire that your character has displayed in character generation. You're completely wrong about this. Templar is more than just a Support class. They meant to give Templars Buffs, Debuffs, Heals, Damage and Tanking. The way things actually were done in practice could have been done better. Instead of Debuffs, other classes got better CC. That would be all well and good if the lions share of Templar abilities weren't so situational. Situational is fine when you've got 30 powers on a tray to choose from, a little less helpful when you've got 5 and 5 + 2 ultimates at best.

I think your point of view on Nightblade is likewise wrong. The point of view on Sorceror is slightly right, and your view on Dragon Knight is correct, except you neglect the point that it is also meant to do damage and lots of it. In reality all classes are meant to have a Damage Dealing role if you've built for it.

In many ways I wish this game never had classes. I'd be fine with having a way for us to 'complete' a class and then start to pick up other classes skill lines. Perhaps that would be a solution, perhaps it would open up a whole new can of worms, I don't know.

Don't get me wrong. I did not say templar could only support.
I mention templar are "GREAT"support. As far as pvp & pve are concern, their ability to support and carry the team outshine the rest and this is what it suspose to be.

The whole intention of my post is to address
"NERFING STANDARD is dump and does not make any different.

It definitely won't make more player stay or play more because you nerf DK standard.

Instead of focusing on nerfing, please focus on FIXING THE BUG" and making this game FUN.

You are making this game losing it trait and becoming more boring.

Emperor

BBSooner wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

Which is fine, and how multiple tanks (for example) in other MMOs works. Mitigation tanks, drain tanks, hp tanks, evade tanks, heal tanks, pet tanks, dps tanks, etc. They are different but (ideally) equal - or at least equal enough to complete the same content with the same level of difficulty. That is the premise behind the roles fitting in each of ESO's classes.

Just so you know, your "solution" would cause the exact same problem people are whining about right now. As long as there is a single skill that is remotely useful that is unique to a class people will complain that they can't "play as they want"

Ser Lobo

Emperor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

Which is fine, and how multiple tanks (for example) in other MMOs works. Mitigation tanks, drain tanks, hp tanks, evade tanks, heal tanks, pet tanks, dps tanks, etc. They are different but (ideally) equal - or at least equal enough to complete the same content with the same level of difficulty. That is the premise behind the roles fitting in each of ESO's classes.

Just so you know, your "solution" would cause the exact same problem people are whining about right now. As long as there is a single skill that is remotely useful that is unique to a class people will complain that they can't "play as they want"

What skill are you focused on?

The dragon standard was overused. It was a prime point in almost all DK builds I've seen, simply because it was the best option. They could have increased the capabilities of the other two ultimates for DK's to make them just as useful, but that end result means DK's still as strong as they always were ... too strong. So nerf dragon standard, hopefully to make it on par with the other two DK abilities, and now players at least FEEL like they have other options.

Players don't use light armor and staves because they want to. Many use them because they feel they HAVE to, just to remain competitive. This is a far better reason to nerf a playstyle than any other. As long as players feel a compulsion to play a certain way, it's a bad thing.

BBSooner

Emperor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

Which is fine, and how multiple tanks (for example) in other MMOs works. Mitigation tanks, drain tanks, hp tanks, evade tanks, heal tanks, pet tanks, dps tanks, etc. They are different but (ideally) equal - or at least equal enough to complete the same content with the same level of difficulty. That is the premise behind the roles fitting in each of ESO's classes.

Just so you know, your "solution" would cause the exact same problem people are whining about right now. As long as there is a single skill that is remotely useful that is unique to a class people will complain that they can't "play as they want"

It's not a solution, Just recounting what the dev's designed/are balancing towards. I should mention as well that as core of a selling point as ' play how you want ' is to eso, multiple classes filling a role while remaining different and balanced isn't a new concept, And many mmos have done it successfully.

Kililin

Viblo wrote: »

But everyone is pigeon holed into light armor and staff?!

Let me interpret. By using the word "everyone" he means the min/maxers and those that internet search to find the min/max build so they can claim to be the best. The use of "everyone" does not include those that just play the game. Just to clear things up.

I does include everyone that plays the game and tries not to be a drag on his group members.
Sure you can solo "play" the game with your alternative build by dieing through 50++ content.
(Yes there are like 2 builds using medium armor and stamina weapons that are good, Yes there are heavy armor tanks, i know. These are the exceptions to the rule.)

nerevarine1138

Kililin wrote: »

Viblo wrote: »

But everyone is pigeon holed into light armor and staff?!

Let me interpret. By using the word "everyone" he means the min/maxers and those that internet search to find the min/max build so they can claim to be the best. The use of "everyone" does not include those that just play the game. Just to clear things up.

I does include everyone that plays the game and tries not to be a drag on his group members.
Sure you can solo "play" the game with your alternative build by dieing through 50++ content.
(Yes there are like 2 builds using medium armor and stamina weapons that are good, Yes there are heavy armor tanks, i know. These are the exceptions to the rule.)

By your logic, I'm either using one of the 2 medium armor/dual-wield builds that work (and I somehow found it without looking it up), or I'm the best player ever.

I have never once looked up an "optimal" build. I'm a VR7 Nightblade, clearing my way easily through the content, and I'm able to provide great damage output and utility for my PvE guild in Craglorn.

khele23eb17_ESO

Emperor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

Which is fine, and how multiple tanks (for example) in other MMOs works. Mitigation tanks, drain tanks, hp tanks, evade tanks, heal tanks, pet tanks, dps tanks, etc. They are different but (ideally) equal - or at least equal enough to complete the same content with the same level of difficulty. That is the premise behind the roles fitting in each of ESO's classes.

Just so you know, your "solution" would cause the exact same problem people are whining about right now. As long as there is a single skill that is remotely useful that is unique to a class people will complain that they can't "play as they want"

I think youre missing the point. A great majority of people complaining about not being able to play as they want are interested in playing a specific archetype which their class is connected to. Like assassin for NBs or holy knight/crusader for Templars. Theyre not focused on any one single skill, theyre dissapointed in their preferred playstyle not being competitive.

Emperor

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

Which is fine, and how multiple tanks (for example) in other MMOs works. Mitigation tanks, drain tanks, hp tanks, evade tanks, heal tanks, pet tanks, dps tanks, etc. They are different but (ideally) equal - or at least equal enough to complete the same content with the same level of difficulty. That is the premise behind the roles fitting in each of ESO's classes.

Just so you know, your "solution" would cause the exact same problem people are whining about right now. As long as there is a single skill that is remotely useful that is unique to a class people will complain that they can't "play as they want"

I think youre missing the point. A great majority of people complaining about not being able to play as they want are interested in playing a specific archetype which their class is connected to. Like assassin for NBs or holy knight/crusader for Templars. Theyre not focused on any one single skill, theyre dissapointed in their preferred playstyle not being competitive.

I want to know exactly what you mean by "not being competitive". Do you mean they can't do the same amount of DPS? Do you mean they can't tank as much as another class? Do you mean they can't heal as effectively? Do you mean there specific skills you wish you had?

khele23eb17_ESO

Emperor wrote: »

I want to know exactly what you mean by "not being competitive". Do you mean they can't do the same amount of DPS? Do you mean they can't tank as much as another class? Do you mean they can't heal as effectively? Do you mean there specific skills you wish you had?

Well lets think for a moment. What could I possibly mean when I talk about NB 'assassins' (melee playstyle based on speed, stealth and skillful use of blades) not being competitive. Must be healing or tanking... obviously... And a crusader... must me a cloth/staff using healer obviously...

Ser Lobo

Emperor wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

If the developers truly wanted every class to be exactly equal like people on here apparently want there should have either been 1 class or multiple classes that only have COSMETIC differences. Otherwise, there will always be a skill that 1 class has that another class wants, etc.

Which is fine, and how multiple tanks (for example) in other MMOs works. Mitigation tanks, drain tanks, hp tanks, evade tanks, heal tanks, pet tanks, dps tanks, etc. They are different but (ideally) equal - or at least equal enough to complete the same content with the same level of difficulty. That is the premise behind the roles fitting in each of ESO's classes.

Just so you know, your "solution" would cause the exact same problem people are whining about right now. As long as there is a single skill that is remotely useful that is unique to a class people will complain that they can't "play as they want"

I think youre missing the point. A great majority of people complaining about not being able to play as they want are interested in playing a specific archetype which their class is connected to. Like assassin for NBs or holy knight/crusader for Templars. Theyre not focused on any one single skill, theyre dissapointed in their preferred playstyle not being competitive.

I want to know exactly what you mean by "not being competitive". Do you mean they can't do the same amount of DPS? Do you mean they can't tank as much as another class? Do you mean they can't heal as effectively? Do you mean there specific skills you wish you had?

In my mind, it means when I walk my nightblade in a group dungeon and try to solo it, each fight is an intense, long battle of strategic positioning, efficient mana use, and one mistake and I'm dead.

And the dragonknight walks past me, is one VR lower than me, and pops standard and talons and destro staff and does what I do with a third of the time and a tenth of the effort.

Kililin

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Kililin wrote: »

Viblo wrote: »

But everyone is pigeon holed into light armor and staff?!

Let me interpret. By using the word "everyone" he means the min/maxers and those that internet search to find the min/max build so they can claim to be the best. The use of "everyone" does not include those that just play the game. Just to clear things up.

I does include everyone that plays the game and tries not to be a drag on his group members.
Sure you can solo "play" the game with your alternative build by dieing through 50++ content.
(Yes there are like 2 builds using medium armor and stamina weapons that are good, Yes there are heavy armor tanks, i know. These are the exceptions to the rule.)

By your logic, I'm either using one of the 2 medium armor/dual-wield builds that work (and I somehow found it without looking it up), or I'm the best player ever.

I have never once looked up an "optimal" build. I'm a VR7 Nightblade, clearing my way easily through the content, and I'm able to provide great damage output and utility for my PvE guild in Craglorn.

maybe you have, maybe you are or you did work out the third one.
You could help out the NB community by posting you findings, obviously many of your stealthy brethren struggle to do same as you do.

Of course the videos and screenshots i see of nightblades doing top dps (while of course also providing utility) are staff wielding light armor users.

I would be happy if i where wrong, i just dont see evidence, except people claiming to do great/good/etc. damage, but without any numbers/proof.
To not be a drag on your group you need to do more dps than la/staff and at least as much as the la/staff builds if you are ranged.
You being a good player and beating *other* players in your guild/friends does not count, because you would also be a good player with a better build and help out even more.

Ignorance is not a virtue in my book. So i dont get you snide remarks about looking up mechanics or builds.