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Still in Beta?
Smurfalot
Soul Shriven
I have worked as a project manager for several years. I know there is a lot of pressure to deliver on a timeline.
You have my sympathy, but I believe I speak for a majority of players when I say, you need to prioritize having a fully functional and bug-free game above all else related to new content. Adding buggy new content on top of buggy old content is not doing anyone any favors.
It honestly feels like I am still playing a beta version of the game.
The Craglorn patch is a good example. The fix for bugged quest achievements ended up breaking more achievements than it fixed and the exp boost for veteran zones included an undocumented power boost for the mobs that made the upper level areas nearly unplayable until the server was restarted. Not to mention the other undocumented "stealth" nerfs you did not even acknowledge until people started complaining about the changes. Treating your customers like they are too stupid to notice changes is not the best way to gain trust and credibility.
High profile screw ups like these quickly overshadow all the good stuff that worked well because broken things are much, much more noticeable than something that is functioning correctly which is highly frustrating for both your team and the end users.
The leading cause of death for my character should not be lag or UI freeze-ups.
I should not have to rely on add-ons to add basic functions like searching the bank/guild store that ought to be a native part of the game from the beginning.
I should be able to play without constantly having to find workarounds, refresh my UI or relog the game to clear bugs.
At this point, your release backlog should be nothing but bug fixes and improving basic functionality. In other words, fix what you currently have before you add anything else.
You have my sympathy, but I believe I speak for a majority of players when I say, you need to prioritize having a fully functional and bug-free game above all else related to new content. Adding buggy new content on top of buggy old content is not doing anyone any favors.
It honestly feels like I am still playing a beta version of the game.
The Craglorn patch is a good example. The fix for bugged quest achievements ended up breaking more achievements than it fixed and the exp boost for veteran zones included an undocumented power boost for the mobs that made the upper level areas nearly unplayable until the server was restarted. Not to mention the other undocumented "stealth" nerfs you did not even acknowledge until people started complaining about the changes. Treating your customers like they are too stupid to notice changes is not the best way to gain trust and credibility.
High profile screw ups like these quickly overshadow all the good stuff that worked well because broken things are much, much more noticeable than something that is functioning correctly which is highly frustrating for both your team and the end users.
The leading cause of death for my character should not be lag or UI freeze-ups.
I should not have to rely on add-ons to add basic functions like searching the bank/guild store that ought to be a native part of the game from the beginning.
I should be able to play without constantly having to find workarounds, refresh my UI or relog the game to clear bugs.
At this point, your release backlog should be nothing but bug fixes and improving basic functionality. In other words, fix what you currently have before you add anything else.
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Zionysus✭✭✭I'm certainly no programmer/dev, but as fast as many players have leveled, if they don't get new stuff out, they risk losing them. But I also agree that if they just keep bringing out new content, they'll keep getting buried in bug fixes. It seems it's a bit of a conundrum.
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zgrssd✭✭✭✭
I am pretty sure they have more then one comptuer and more then one developer. And it is no mystery that only X people can work on any problem at a time. Too many programmers working on the same pieces of code only get in each others ways.I have worked as a project manager for several years. I know there is a lot of pressure to deliver on a timeline.
You have my sympathy, but I believe I speak for a majority of players when I say, you need to prioritize having a fully functional and bug-free game above all else related to new content. Adding buggy new content on top of buggy old content is not doing anyone any favors.
And it is also not like the Quest Designer can help in any way with solving a Skill issue.
And changing too many stuff at onces will only case more issues, so they fix the skills 1-3 at a time. Wich is a fully reasonable rate for any MMO.Edited by zgrssd on June 2, 2014 5:32PMElana Peterson (EU), Dominion, Imperial Sorc, Rune & Alchemy Crafting Char
Leonida Peterson (EU), Daggerfall, Kajiit Nightblade, Tank & main Crafter
Kurga Peterson (EU), Ebonhart, Ork Dragonknight, Provision Mule
Coldblood Peterson (EU) Argonian Templer, Daggerfall, Healer
Incendia Peterson (EU), Dominion, Dunmer Dragonknight, fire DPS & healer
Haldor Belendor (EU), Ebonhart, Breton Sorcerer, Tank
Fuliminictus Peterson (EU), Ebonhart, Altmer Sorcerer, Electric DPS
Me babbling about PvE roles and Armor, Short Guide to Addon Programming (for Programmers)
If you think anything I or somebody else said violates the Rules of this Forum, you are free to flag my posts. Till I get any notifcaion from this, I just asume you know you have no case against me or Zenimax disagrees with you.2 -
GrimCyclone✭✭✭✭✭Hell yeah! More topics like this! Well said!
Hit 'em hard. Go deep! Balls deep!
*Note to mod* I'm talking about trebuchet balls. Yeah. What? You haven't heard of that? Yeah we go balls deep into their forts. With those flaming balls. Dude wtf?! I'm not being offensive. I'm talking about munitions! Why are you censoring me? It's common Cyrodiil slang. Trebuchets fire flaming balls into their fort walls. They go deep into them. I swear to god.2 -
Sindala✭✭✭✭✭Still in Beta = Yes.
Being First is not the prize, it just mean's everyone can stab you in the back.8 -
Zanagan✭✭frwinters_ESO wrote: »There will never be an MMO that will launch bug free ever.
Is that all you can say? There were bugs in beta long before the game went live that were reported and nothing was done about it.
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Ragekniv✭✭✭My sympathy for Zenimax developers is dead.
Beta and three months player base subscription revenue should produce more evidence of game stability, a workable solution to bots and class balance.
Instead of being pro-active and balancing, they are fire stomping by ninja nerfing, nerfing and in general just plain alienating their player base.
I hope they get a grip before the player base tires of paying subscription fees but the attrition rate is already evident and may surpass the event horizon of ESO's relevance.
Look at your friends lists and guilds and witness the decline of active player population.7 -
SmurfalotSoul Shriven
I am pretty sure they have more then one comptuer and more then one developer. And it is no mystery that only X people can work on any problem at a time. Too many programmers working on the same pieces of code only get in each others ways.I have worked as a project manager for several years. I know there is a lot of pressure to deliver on a timeline.
You have my sympathy, but I believe I speak for a majority of players when I say, you need to prioritize having a fully functional and bug-free game above all else related to new content. Adding buggy new content on top of buggy old content is not doing anyone any favors.
And it is also not like the Quest Designer can help in any way with solving a Skill issue.
And changing too many stuff at onces will only case more issues, so they fix the skills 1-3 at a time. Wich is a fully reasonable rate for any MMO.
I agree with your general sentiment, but they seem to be having trouble with the "walk and chew gum" approach to doing bug fixes at the same time as new content.
I am not saying they need to completely stop development on the new content, but they do need to address the bugs more effectively to prevent them being forward and compounded by adding new features.
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Mablung✭✭✭✭✭I'm certainly no programmer/dev, but as fast as many players have leveled, if they don't get new stuff out, they risk losing them. But I also agree that if they just keep bringing out new content, they'll keep getting buried in bug fixes. It seems it's a bit of a conundrum.
What is the point of new content if no one can play the game as intended. You have just underlined the inherent problem in MMOs. The 'hard core' gamer.
The definition has definitely changed from what it used to mean. Hard core gaming used to refer to an individual who played hours upon hours figuring out and conquering raid content, pvp content, nightly at scheduled times. It seems to define the player who now rushes to max level to see what is there, conquer that and complain about what is lacking.
I agree 100% with the OP. Fix the issues in your game. Adding faulty code on top of faulty code says to me that you anticipate that the shelf life of your product is finite and in this case it is approaching rapidly. Extensive QA testing and end user testing is how you avoid what we have been delivered so far. I am not saying that those things are not occurring, I have no idea, but what is being delivered does suggest that it is either not happening or the level of acceptable product being pushed out is so low that your entire team needs to be reevaluated.Edited by Mablung on June 5, 2014 1:00AM2 -
Mablung✭✭✭✭✭The argument that all MMOs have bugs is pathetic. Yes, they have issues and bugs upon release. Things that are not extensively tested/used all of sudden are bombarded and problems are revealed. Never have I seen the scale of bugs/problems in any MMO launch go so poorly as I have with this game. Never have I seen a customer service department be so hamstrung or such poor communication from the developers.
Do not come at with an argument of X game or Y game. I've played them all. There is a good chance I was in it's beta testing as well. The majority of MMOs are not released like this. Most people have named the handful of MMOs to have releases similar to this one and look where they are at now. Gone or F2P.4 -
Drasn✭✭✭✭Wildstar's launch is going pretty smooth, and it actually feels like a polished game. It feels like the developers understood what they where doing and how everything was supposed to work together.
While I had fun 1-50 in ESO, I never really got the feeling that it was a polished game, and with each level gained I became more and more disconnected with my toon because it felt like I was being guided towards a specific playstyle. And sure the playstyle that I set out to use worked 1-50, but into Vet ranks it became less and less viable as each zone passed. Now as a V12 templar I run around in robes and carry staff, and can tank, heal, or pass as a dps all with the same set of gear. That is just bad design.
They aren't going to be able to fix this game unless the developers realize and admit to the mistake they made with core game mechanics. They need to rethink their resource usage system. Until that happens, there will never be an acceptable balance between stamina and magicka builds.6 -
Loco_Mofo✭✭✭✭✭frwinters_ESO wrote: »There will never be an MMO that will launch bug free ever.
Well let's just give Zeni a get out of jail card with that throw away line.
Everything is fine folks, incompetence is standard in the MMO world.
Unbelievable the standard of quality some people will accept.1 -
Mablung✭✭✭✭✭fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »@thomas, if you are that miserable here and Wildstar is so fantastic - why are you still here?
Shouldn't matter to you if he is miserable. He paid for the product, he should be allowed to vent however he feels.1 -
Dealdrick✭✭✭fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »@thomas, if you are that miserable here and Wildstar is so fantastic - why are you still here?
Because these forums are the best PvP ESO has to offer =p3 -
Drasn✭✭✭✭fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »@thomas, if you are that miserable here and Wildstar is so fantastic - why are you still here?
Really? That's what you got out of what I said? Fine I'll bite, I'm still here because my subscription is still running and may want to return one day, albeit that outcome is looking slimmer with each patch and road ahead update.
Furthermore, since you want to get in to that, 2 days into launch Wildstar is a far more polished game than ESO after 2 months. One feels like it was developed by a real top shelf developmental team, the other seems more like a fan fiction gone wrong.2
