The problem with the Attribute Calculation

OldSmeller

This is a good game but it is held back by a multitude of problems. I am not here to say any one problem is more important than any other. I am making this thread with the purpose of pointing out that problems with the character sheet that existed in beta are still present as of this posting.



This is my build with no food or buffs except those of the alliance and Mage Light (crit morph). I want you to notice that most of my stats are approaching or are at overcharge. Despite this I can still easily get overpowered by Veteran mobs that are 4 levels below me. You might ask yourself "Why?".


There is a short answer and a long answer.


The Short Version

The character sheet is broken. The way the game calculates any stat, listed or otherwise is inconsistent and prone to incorrect values. The way the game calculates incoming damage is demonstrably inaccurate and inconsistent.

The Long Version
For the sake of argument let's assume you have my exact build right down to the armor and any values not visible without addons. You approach an enemy who is the same Veteran Rank as you (5). That enemy shoots you with a fire ball spell.

What should happen: The damage from the fire ball spell should be reduced by spell resistance and any other damage mitigation.

What does happen: The damage from the fire ball spell is not reduced/reflected/absorbed in any way due to a calculation or categorization error and you take the full damage.

You as the player have not done anything wrong. Your internet connection and the power of your PC has no effect whatsoever on this issue. This issue is especially noticeable in PVP. If the skill execution delay doesn't result in your untimely demise than the hip shot accuracy of the game will.

"Where is the proof?!"
Somewhere in the areas of the API that are no longer accessible to the players.
it can be proven that something~ is happening it cannot be reproduced easily because of the above reason.

DivZero

something to add, not really relevant for attribut points,but general: damage (and hit/miss) is most likely to be calculated at the beginning of the casting animation. So if you have an enemy which casts a cone-like spell and you are inside this cone, run outside (maybe through the enemy to stand behind him) before the animation is complete, you still get hit. Another "feature": if you cast mirror images as a nightblade to attack an enemy, the enemy reacts on the cast, not when the shadow gets close to him or hit him.

RoCoL

OT but maybe someone here will answer: Does maxing your Magika also increase your damage in anyway? Is there a reason to max your magic if your a caster or max stamina if a melee build? why not go full health and enchant your way to stamina and magika overcharge?

xaraan

I didn't think there was so much a problem with mitigation as they just have the vet mobs overpowered. Instead of making things more challenging in a smart way (maybe adding one or two mobs to a pull, or having them use more powers or fight smarter) they just made them more powerful. Since they have 4K+ish health at a level when you have 2K+ish, I notice their powers are twice what ours are as well. A thrown dagger power that does 300-400 damage by me will do 700+ by them for example.

Innocente

You no look at numbers!
You just play game!
Immersion greater than all!
Why you want numbers anyway?
This not real MMO!

Catches_the_Sun

This certainly does explain some things. My wife & I duo everything and are now in VR5 content. She is a medium armor NB & I'm a 5 heavy/2 light armor Templar. My spell resist & armor stats are typically MUCH higher than hers, but we've started noticing since the introduction of the death recap, that the damage numbers are identical from same-spells.

Censorious

I don't think you understand the logic behind the OP guards. They are like that for a reason.

They are there to make sure that a small group can't 'ninja' a camp or keep. Their nominal rating of V5 is pretty well irrelevant. They have been provided with a massive health pool and an equally massive damage burst on a long CD.

Their job is to 'execute' one player each. That way, you need a minimum number of attackers to take the objective. Anyone still alive after the cull will have plenty of time to kill the guards before the execute spell comes off CD.

I'm rather impressed with it - it's quite a neat solution to the problem of night capping.

gil_galad_67b16_ESO

I'm happy you provided a short version, I could never have finished reading the long version with all the proofs and numbers to explain this fact.

OldSmeller

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

This certainly does explain some things. My wife & I duo everything and are now in VR5 content. She is a medium armor NB & I'm a 5 heavy/2 light armor Templar. My spell resist & armor stats are typically MUCH higher than hers, but we've started noticing since the introduction of the death recap, that the damage numbers are identical from same-spells.

Yes.

The numbers you see on your character sheet are often meaningless because the game dosn't always take them into account.

Certain days I have 42% spell crit instead of 62%~. Sometimes mage light needs to be toggled on and off at least 4 times slowly before the character sheet updates.

Edit: It is also worth note that the "overcharge" feature~ is broken.
At no point should the base attributes with nothing else added result in wasted points due to overcharge. That's just bad game design. Either change max attributes to 45 or lift overcharge.

JosephChip

I literally never had any of the issues liste in this thread. My stats work fine, I don't see them fluctuating due to bugs and I never receive strangely over the top damage.

gerwin.kamstrab16_ESO

RoCoL wrote: »

OT but maybe someone here will answer: Does maxing your Magika also increase your damage in anyway? Is there a reason to max your magic if your a caster or max stamina if a melee build? why not go full health and enchant your way to stamina and magika overcharge?

Yes magicka attribute increases spell power and stamina attribute increase weapon power. If you hover over the stat ingame it says as such and if you compare a skill before and after adding a point into magicka for example you do see an increase in the power.

Kayvee

JosephChip wrote: »

I literally never had any of the issues liste in this thread. My stats work fine, I don't see them fluctuating due to bugs and I never receive strangely over the top damage.

Then you either aren't paying close enough attention or you don't know what you should be looking at/for.

Cogo

Why do anyone need to calculate anything? When I level...sure, I dont level 5 times a day, then I have an idea what to go for and what I have been needing.
Also, there still is no right or wrong. Thats ESO.

OldSmeller

Kayvee wrote: »

JosephChip wrote: »

I literally never had any of the issues liste in this thread. My stats work fine, I don't see them fluctuating due to bugs and I never receive strangely over the top damage.

Then you either aren't paying close enough attention or you don't know what you should be looking at/for.

This is my sentiment. If you aren't a min/maxer or you are not actively paying attention it is very easy to not notice the whackyness.

The biggest issue is for spell casters because most mele skills appear to have higher rate of success in terms of penetration and damage output.

Spell penetration is unfortunately one of those things that rarely works as intended. You can test this with any dps meter and do some excel math to figure out how much damage you SHOULD be doing.

The only time I was happy that the engine has difficulty is when I was in wabbajack surrounded by vet 10s and I downed a spell power and spell crit potion. They must have assumed I was hacking because I killed all of them with 3 hits of impulse. I didn't have a dps counter back then but I am pretty sure a vet 1 shouldn't be able to solo 5-8 vet 10s with 3 mouse clicks.

Unfortunately the miscalculation often favors the npc than it does the player.

gil_galad_67b16_ESO

You can test this with any dps meter and do some excel math to figure out how much damage you SHOULD be doing.

How about YOU provide us some concrete proofs about that?
After all you created this thread, you must have done the maths to be sure about that... don't be selfish, share please ...

OldSmeller

gil_galad_67b16_ESO wrote: »

You can test this with any dps meter and do some excel math to figure out how much damage you SHOULD be doing.

How about YOU provide us some concrete proofs about that?
After all you created this thread, you must have done the maths to be sure about that... don't be selfish, share please ...

Maybe I am naive but I figured most people had already experiences this as the replies would indicate. The problem with proof is that the API has been nerfed, badly. It's very difficult if not impossible to get the full equation as to point out where precisely the math goes wrong.

Fortunately you don't need the full equation to know something is wrong. It's up to Zos to find the source and resolve it.

kaosodin

Innocente wrote: »

You no look at numbers!
You just play game!
Immersion greater than all!
Why you want numbers anyway?
This not real MMO!

Really, this was your constructive reply.

Your canceling right?

OldSmeller

kaosodin wrote: »

Innocente wrote: »

You no look at numbers!
You just play game!
Immersion greater than all!
Why you want numbers anyway?
This not real MMO!

Really, this was your constructive reply.

Your canceling right?

Just ignore the people trying to troll. They feed off the attention. Pretend they aren't here and they will starve.

Shaun98ca2

So the values are strange. I have seen my Stamina regen value change for no good reason. 1 point its weirdly extremely low then another its at its "standard".

Blackhorne

OldSmeller wrote: »

This is a good game but it is held back by a multitude of problems. I am not here to say any one problem is more important than any other. I am making this thread with the purpose of pointing out that problems with the character sheet that existed in beta are still present as of this posting.



This is my build with no food or buffs except those of the alliance and Mage Light (crit morph). I want you to notice that most of my stats are approaching or are at overcharge. Despite this I can still easily get overpowered by Veteran mobs that are 4 levels below me. You might ask yourself "Why?".

Cool story bro.
Too bad it's wrong.

None of your stats except the magicka- and equipment- based ones are anywhere near overcharge. Your health is at 86% (76% recovery speed) and your stamina is at 59% (87% recovery speed). Even your spell damage is only at 64% of overcharge.

The much simpler explanation to what's going on here is that you've overspecialized with an all-magicka build.

You're relying solely on magicka, armor and weapons, and the amount you've overspent on those would have been better spent on some stamina and health to help you take and recover from the blows that make it through.

You absolutely need to replace some of your way-too-overcharged spell resist with stamina, spell damage, and maybe some health.

Get the math right with the numbers you can see; then we can discuss if there's a problem with the numbers you can't see.

Another tip: start reading the death recaps: They'll tell you what's getting through your defenses.

OldSmeller

Blackhorne wrote: »

OldSmeller wrote: »

This is a good game but it is held back by a multitude of problems. I am not here to say any one problem is more important than any other. I am making this thread with the purpose of pointing out that problems with the character sheet that existed in beta are still present as of this posting.



This is my build with no food or buffs except those of the alliance and Mage Light (crit morph). I want you to notice that most of my stats are approaching or are at overcharge. Despite this I can still easily get overpowered by Veteran mobs that are 4 levels below me. You might ask yourself "Why?".

Cool story bro.
Too bad it's wrong.

None of your stats except the magicka- and equipment- based ones are anywhere near overcharge. Your health is at 86% (76% recovery speed) and your stamina is at 59% (87% recovery speed). Even your spell damage is only at 64% of overcharge.

The much simpler explanation to what's going on here is that you've overspecialized with an all-magicka build.

You're relying solely on magicka, armor and weapons, and the amount you've overspent on those would have been better spent on some stamina and health to help you take and recover from the blows that make it through.

You absolutely need to replace some of your way-too-overcharged spell resist with stamina, spell damage, and maybe some health.

Get the math right with the numbers you can see; then we can discuss if there's a problem with the numbers you can't see.

Another tip: start reading the death recaps: They'll tell you what's getting through your defenses.

Did you even read the thread op?

So basically NONE of my stats are overcharged except... most of them.
My spell damage is "only" at 64%, yeah... Do you know what Diminishing Returns means?

I think it's in your best interest to delete your post.

Blackhorne

OldSmeller wrote: »

Blackhorne wrote: »

OldSmeller wrote: »

This is a good game but it is held back by a multitude of problems. I am not here to say any one problem is more important than any other. I am making this thread with the purpose of pointing out that problems with the character sheet that existed in beta are still present as of this posting.



This is my build with no food or buffs except those of the alliance and Mage Light (crit morph). I want you to notice that most of my stats are approaching or are at overcharge. Despite this I can still easily get overpowered by Veteran mobs that are 4 levels below me. You might ask yourself "Why?".

Cool story bro.
Too bad it's wrong.

None of your stats except the magicka- and equipment- based ones are anywhere near overcharge. Your health is at 86% (76% recovery speed) and your stamina is at 59% (87% recovery speed). Even your spell damage is only at 64% of overcharge.

The much simpler explanation to what's going on here is that you've overspecialized with an all-magicka build.

You're relying solely on magicka, armor and weapons, and the amount you've overspent on those would have been better spent on some stamina and health to help you take and recover from the blows that make it through.

You absolutely need to replace some of your way-too-overcharged spell resist with stamina, spell damage, and maybe some health.

Get the math right with the numbers you can see; then we can discuss if there's a problem with the numbers you can't see.

Another tip: start reading the death recaps: They'll tell you what's getting through your defenses.

Did you even read the thread op?

So basically NONE of my stats are overcharged except... most of them.
My spell damage is "only" at 64%, yeah... Do you know what Diminishing Returns means?

I think it's in your best interest to delete your post.

There are twelve stats on that screen, and only five of them are overcharged. That's not most; it's less than half. Most (7/12) of your stats are well below the softcap.

Yes, I know what diminishing returns means -- that's what kicks in when you hit the softcap. If your spell damage is 64% of the softcap, you might as well be throwing beach balls instead of fireballs.

Furthermore, your Spell Resistance is WAY overcharged. You're basically throwing away over 700 points which could be used to increase spell damage, stamina, health, or health regen, all of which might help you survive some of these battles you keep losing.

OldSmeller

Blackhorne wrote: »

OldSmeller wrote: »

Blackhorne wrote: »

OldSmeller wrote: »

This is a good game but it is held back by a multitude of problems. I am not here to say any one problem is more important than any other. I am making this thread with the purpose of pointing out that problems with the character sheet that existed in beta are still present as of this posting.



This is my build with no food or buffs except those of the alliance and Mage Light (crit morph). I want you to notice that most of my stats are approaching or are at overcharge. Despite this I can still easily get overpowered by Veteran mobs that are 4 levels below me. You might ask yourself "Why?".

Cool story bro.
Too bad it's wrong.

None of your stats except the magicka- and equipment- based ones are anywhere near overcharge. Your health is at 86% (76% recovery speed) and your stamina is at 59% (87% recovery speed). Even your spell damage is only at 64% of overcharge.

The much simpler explanation to what's going on here is that you've overspecialized with an all-magicka build.

You're relying solely on magicka, armor and weapons, and the amount you've overspent on those would have been better spent on some stamina and health to help you take and recover from the blows that make it through.

You absolutely need to replace some of your way-too-overcharged spell resist with stamina, spell damage, and maybe some health.

Get the math right with the numbers you can see; then we can discuss if there's a problem with the numbers you can't see.

Another tip: start reading the death recaps: They'll tell you what's getting through your defenses.

Did you even read the thread op?

So basically NONE of my stats are overcharged except... most of them.
My spell damage is "only" at 64%, yeah... Do you know what Diminishing Returns means?

I think it's in your best interest to delete your post.

There are twelve stats on that screen, and only five of them are overcharged. That's not most; it's less than half. Most (7/12) of your stats are well below the softcap.

Yes, I know what diminishing returns means -- that's what kicks in when you hit the softcap. If your spell damage is 64% of the softcap, you might as well be throwing beach balls instead of fireballs.

Furthermore, your Spell Resistance is WAY overcharged. You're basically throwing away over 700 points which could be used to increase spell damage, stamina, health, or health regen, all of which might help you survive some of these battles you keep losing.

You do realize that Overcharge IS the softcap, right? I think you should just stop posting, you don't seem to understand the point of this thread. This is not a place to critique builds, its about a fundamental problem with the way the game calculates (or fails too) player stats.

JosephChip

Kayvee wrote: »

JosephChip wrote: »

I literally never had any of the issues liste in this thread. My stats work fine, I don't see them fluctuating due to bugs and I never receive strangely over the top damage.

Then you either aren't paying close enough attention or you don't know what you should be looking at/for.

Or, and follow me here, this isn't actually a bug that happens to everyone?
Because you know, MR. Knowall, I am perfectly aware what stats are, how they work, what softcap is and all these shenaningas. I tinker with them daily. You are not more knowledgeble than anyone else, sorry to burst your bubble!
I have been VR12 for a while and everything works great here. See ya.