Divines trait on armor doesn't work...

Emperor

The Mundus stone I have activated is the Theif stone for the critical chance boost. With all my armor having the Divines trait on it I should be getting about an additional 3% crit on top of the normal 7.3% crit boost, but there is no difference.

How is everyone else's mundus stone boost effecting their stats? Are they working as intended? Maybe slightly off a normal calculation? Or simply not working at all like my theif stone + divines trait.

Natjur

There is a funny 'bug' when you have more then one item with Divine on it.
Take off all armor EXCEPT one piece with Divine and compare it to when you are wearing many pieces.

Each extra piece with Divine does not ADD as you would expect it to
Also the Thief stone is bugged too (does not show on your stats, either it does nothing at all, or its a display issue). So use another mundus stone to compare. Best one is the +100 magic one so you can see exactly what the Divines traits is doing.

Sakiri

Its not the trait.

Its the stone. Stones been buggy.

Trait most certainly is working on my mage stone.

Emperor

Natjur wrote: »

There is a funny 'bug' when you have more then one item with Divine on it.
Take off all armor EXCEPT one piece with Divine and compare it to when you are wearing many pieces.

Each extra piece with Divine does not ADD as you would expect it to
Also the Thief stone is bugged too (does not show on your stats, either it does nothing at all, or its a display issue). So use another mundus stone to compare. Best one is the +100 magic one so you can see exactly what the Divines traits is doing.

Yea, I noticed the stone is buggy too, but I fixed it by getting another mundus stone and then switching back to Theif stone. Even though that fixes the Theif stone, the Divines trait still doesn't work

Emperor

Sakiri wrote: »

Its not the trait.

Its the stone. Stones been buggy.

Trait most certainly is working on my mage stone.

I tried testing The Mage mundus stone and I think you are right about the Divines trait working with it, but not completely. I have the Divines trait on my shield too and when I switch to my shield my max magic doesn't increase even though it should go up about 7. I am not entirely sure what is going on though because passives make the math fairly difficult to figure out with that stone.

ThreeEyedCrow

Natjur wrote: »

There is a funny 'bug' when you have more then one item with Divine on it.
Take off all armor EXCEPT one piece with Divine and compare it to when you are wearing many pieces.

Each extra piece with Divine does not ADD as you would expect it to
Also the Thief stone is bugged too (does not show on your stats, either it does nothing at all, or its a display issue). So use another mundus stone to compare. Best one is the +100 magic one so you can see exactly what the Divines traits is doing.

Are you saying that one piece of Divines works but any more than one does not add anything?

I was just about to post on this as I was testing a full suit of Divines with Shadow for Crit Damage and when I compared full suit with Divines to full suit without Divines there was literally maybe a 3-5 at most average damage increase on Crits.

If what you say is true that makes sense.

Arsenic_Touch

As said, it's not the trait, it's the stone. The thief doesn't show up in the character sheet stats. It's also a wasted trait because it's multiplicative not additive. That's why the results seem so low because they are that low.

InvictoNZ

Going from Thief to Mage, I could see the crit removed from weapon crit %. (Was no change in spell crit %)

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

As said, it's not the trait, it's the stone. The thief doesn't show up in the character sheet stats.

it's showing on my char sheet. 47.3% crit. with 6/7 divines.

UrQuan

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

It's also a wasted trait because it's multiplicative not additive. That's why the results seem so low because they are that low.

What exactly do you mean by multiplicative instead of additive? If the Divines trait is giving +4% on a stone ability for each piece, and you've got 7 pieces is the math like this:
Mundus Stone Ability X 1.04 X 1.04 X 1.04 X 1.04 X 1.04 X 1.04 X 1.04
Or is it like this:
Mundus Stone Ability X 1.28
If the base stone ability adds +100 to a stat, the first method would end up effectively adding 139.59 to the stat, while the second would end up effectively adding 128 to the stat. Which way does it work? Or is it a different way entirely?

One Two

it adds 0.3 at around 7% to a base stat of 5%. per piece.

I had a guild member laugh at us because he thought divine gave him up to 57% crit as a DK and called us idiots for picking infused...what a d!@(head he is.

williambbechtoldub17_ESO

One of the Dev green posts said that they confirmed The Thief is working, but it isn't displaying correctly after you zone or something like that. It does display correctly when you first get it. So I would switch to a different stone, and then get The Thief again and see if you armor is working as expected.

Emperor

williambbechtoldub17_ESO wrote: »

One of the Dev green posts said that they confirmed The Thief is working, but it isn't displaying correctly after you zone or something like that. It does display correctly when you first get it. So I would switch to a different stone, and then get The Thief again and see if you armor is working as expected.

The theif stone shows when you first get it, but disappears when you go to a different zone. In addition to that, the divine trait doesn't increase my crit chance at all when I have theif stone activated (even when it is working before I leave the zone).

So I don't know if it is just not showing or what.

Thechemicals

I added mundus stone effect and noticed after about 15% stack the diminishing is terrible. Something like .2 gains.

ShedsHisTail

Yeah, without any Divines trait my weapon crit was 39% even. Add a single piece with Divines and it went up to 39.2%. That's with the Thief stone, of course.

Thechemicals

Yeh you have to do the trait formula from the bonus of the mundus stone. So a magicka mundus buff of 100 magicka with 15% stacked mundus trait is 15% of that 100 magicka....15 more magicka lol. Many people think its 15% trait of total pool of crit or health, etc.

Brutalis

Two words sum up this thread... In Fused

Emperor

Thechemicals wrote: »

Yeh you have to do the trait formula from the bonus of the mundus stone. So a magicka mundus buff of 100 magicka with 15% stacked mundus trait is 15% of that 100 magicka....15 more magicka lol. Many people think its 15% trait of total pool of crit or health, etc.

Right so I should be getting an additional 3% crit chance and I'm not. I have Divines on all my armor totaling +40.5% increase in the mundus stone effect. The theif stone increases crit chance by 7.3%. So 7.3 * 0.405 = 2.96 which rounds up to 3.

However, I don't get the 3% increase (or at least it is not shown)

Thechemicals

Emperor wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Yeh you have to do the trait formula from the bonus of the mundus stone. So a magicka mundus buff of 100 magicka with 15% stacked mundus trait is 15% of that 100 magicka....15 more magicka lol. Many people think its 15% trait of total pool of crit or health, etc.

Right so I should be getting an additional 3% crit chance and I'm not. I have Divines on all my armor totaling +40.5% increase in the mundus stone effect. The theif stone increases crit chance by 7.3%. So 7.3 * 0.405 = 2.96 which rounds up to 3.

However, I don't get the 3% increase (or at least it is not shown)

Yeah and i mentioned a few posts above also that there appears to be a diminishing after 15%. It may be a bug or working as intended. Your best bet is you go magelight+weapon crit+crit potions. The crit killers ussually get 100%+ crit chance with the potions.

Erock25

All I know is that with Thief Stone, if I equip some divine trait armor where I previously had none, my crit chance increases on my character sheet.

RomedyMC

This thread may be helpful:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/99523/divines-vs-infused-a-comprehensive-study#latest

TL;DR - Divines appears to be subtractive in nature, meaning it is just not a good idea (with the exception of special cases) to ever uses Divines on armor.

The mage stone is the primary example in that thread.

Stones like the Thief/Shadow/Atronach are now working as intended, but, assuming the subtractive model is correct, you will not see a significant increase beyond one piece.

Emperor

RomedyMC wrote: »

This thread may be helpful:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/99523/divines-vs-infused-a-comprehensive-study#latest

TL;DR - Divines appears to be subtractive in nature, meaning it is just not a good idea (with the exception of special cases) to ever uses Divines on armor.

The mage stone is the primary example in that thread.

Stones like the Thief/Shadow/Atronach are now working as intended, but, assuming the subtractive model is correct, you will not see a significant increase beyond one piece.

Thanks for the link. After reading that thread it still seems like Divines has a place in this game for effects that are not enchantments like magic boosters. In my case I am looking for additional crit chance which can't be enchanted on armor so infused would not help me.

Khivas_Carrick

I think it's safe to say the divines trait doesn't work as intended lol

Emperor

I'm not sure... it would be nice to have more clarification

SinfulSoul

A dev stated just a few days ago that the Thief stone is bugged but it's ONLY a visual bug. Once you get it for the first time it will show the proper effect, but once you leave the zone or die/relog that effect will no longer show in your character sheet. It is only visual tho, and the effect is still there.

They said that it'll be fixed in an upcoming future patch.

Emperor

SinfulSoul wrote: »

A dev stated just a few days ago that the Thief stone is bugged but it's ONLY a visual bug. Once you get it for the first time it will show the proper effect, but once you leave the zone or die/relog that effect will no longer show in your character sheet. It is only visual tho, and the effect is still there.

They said that it'll be fixed in an upcoming future patch.

But even when the theif stone boost is showing it still doesn't show an increase because of the Divines trait effect. You would think the divines trait effect would at least show when the theif stone effect shows... unless it just never shows.

RomedyMC

Emperor wrote: »

Thanks for the link. After reading that thread it still seems like Divines has a place in this game for effects that are not enchantments like magic boosters. In my case I am looking for additional crit chance which can't be enchanted on armor so infused would not help me.

@Emperor - I understand you cannot enchant crit and you want DIvines to increase it, but here are some calculation to show why Divines has a limited return:

Thief increases crit 5% and assuming purple gear:
- 1st Divines piece adds .05 x .075 = .00375, or .375% If we are rounding down, - 2nd Divines piece adds (.05 - .00375) x .075 = .00346, or .346%
- 3rd Divines piece adds (.05 - .00375 - .00346) x .075 = .0032, or .32%

While these calculations assume the subtractive rule for Divines holds true, it would indicate that 3 pieces of Divines gear would increase your crit chance by 1%.

I do not know what else influences crit and I am making some assumptions with these numbers, but these are based on the best data I have available at the moment.

Emperor

@RomedyMC‌
How did your source come up with the subtraction method? It doesn't make any sense to me why that would be the case. I could understand subtracting the boost from the boosted number, but you are subtracting the boost from the original number making the diminishing returns.

If it truly works like that I would assume that is not working as intended. I am looking to use divines on all 7 peices and I get 7.3% crit boost from theives instead of your suggested 5% in your example. When I do the math I get about 3% crit boost which is good enough for me because I am already soft capped at max magicka anyway.

My conclusion is if it truly works with diminishing returns and gives me less than 3% crit boost then Divines probably isn't worth it. I could play around with infused to boost other stats, but if they fix it to where I can get at least a 3% crit boost I would probably still go with Divines.

RomedyMC

@Emperor I arrived at the subtractive model by looking at the returns I got from the Mage Stone and verifying through the Lord and the Tower stones. I kept arriving at a smaller return than expected using Divines pieces with pure addition, but noticed that the subtraction model predicted precisely the outcome I was seeing for all 3 stones.

It is entirely possible that stones like the Thief do not behave in this manner, I was merely using earlier data to provide some numbers.

Are the above results hard numbers? Meaning, you equipped 7 pieces of Divines and got a return of 7.3%? Or a return of 5% (Stone) + 2.3% (Divines)?

Emperor

@RomedyMC‌
I get 7.3% crit from just the theif stone. It might differ based on level. I currently get no boost from the divines trait though unless it is just not showing on my character sheet.

RomedyMC

@Emperor This is excellent info. Just to be clear, this is the gain you receive when naked and acquiring the Thief? What level are you when doing this?