Just get rid of classes and be done with it

aleister

So we have a called "dragon knight" running around in robes with staves, another called "night blade" that apparently make great healers and another called a "templar" who can't melee. Just get rid the classes already and open up the skill lines to everyone. The current system will never come close to being balanced.

Nox_Aeterna

To be fair maybe one day it will reach of degree of balance.

The question is only if zen can make it in a timely manner , this balance issue is costing them subs.

sovreign

My friend had an issue with this, can't say I did, but I understand where your coming from. And it made him quit ESO, among a multitude of other reasons ofc...

Why are there even locked skills to classes he would say.
I want to 'play the way I want' not be forced into playing a class...

I loved OB style spell books, learn any spell, as long as you had the manna, you could cast it.
I see no reason now that skill lines should be locked.

FrauPerchta

When I first heard the play how you want lure I envisioned a no class game with tons of skills to choose from based on your level and if your attribute pools were large enough to power it. Instead we get oddball jack of all trade classes that really don't need to put attribute points into anything but health.

aleister

FrauPerchta wrote: »

When I first heard the play how you want lure I envisioned a no class game with tons of skills to choose from based on your level and if your attribute pools were large enough to power it. Instead we get oddball jack of all trade classes that really don't need to put attribute points into anything but health.

It's completely schizophrenic. The fact that any class can use any type of gear, but yet you've got these class-based skill line restrictions is a recipe for balance disaster. One class is always going to be gimped relative to the others. Either bring in some real class distinction or open it up completely.

WilliamTee

I figured classes might be similar to they are in previous TES games...

,,,a few passives to point you in a certain direction... but otherwise little more impact than your starsign...

You coulda kept the plethora of classes and all the different skill trees...

Skyrim was such a huge success, you have to ask: If it weren't broke, why 'fix' it? (break it. a lot.)

Enkil

...and add in the traditional elder scrolls magic schools.. Make it available to all. No classes.. Total freedom.

The archetypes/classes they have now are poorly done and not even consistent with previous titles.


Either no classes or a lot more (20+) like in previous titles. Judging by the balance issues with just 4 I don't know if that would be a good idea though.

DragonLane555

Yes YES a hundred times!!!!

Open up the class skills to all! There is no reason for classes in an Elder Scrolls game! Even the "Classes" in older Elder Scrolls games just made Leveling "Class skills faster, it didn't stop you from leveling up in any of the other skills in game. You could still learn them all, and a Knight "Class" could be just as good at throwing a Fireball as a Mage "Class" could.

So yeah Zenimax please get rid of classes, and open the class skills to all!

Maleficus

I would agree that removing the classes all together is the right move... It would aslo make this that much more of an Elder Scrolls game.... YES YES..

Honestly that is something that is fundamental to an ES game in my opinion.. No classes, just pick the skills you like and go with it...

Ysne58

I have mixed feelings about this one. I can see issues with OPness when some of the skills lines get combined. That being said, I'd love a character with the NB siphoning skill line and the templar fire skill line and the sorc dark magic one.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

I completely agree! I see why they put classes in the game in the first place but the more I play the less I think they are needed.

PBpsy

So what you want to say is that You want to be a DragonKnight?

Maleficus

I just want to heal with one hand and swing the Mace of Molagbol with the other (really hard).....

davidhorstub17_ESO

yeah cyrodiil will be so much fun with every person running the exact same build bolt escaping, cloaking, and spamming standards on each other. actually that sounds horrible.

Lazarus_Long

While I am firmly in the "no classes just skill lines" camp I can understand why it was necessary to make this game the way it is. I think that the vast majority of players wouldn't have made it past their "free" 30 days with without a lot of bowing and scraping toward traditional MMO mechanics. They would be at a complete loss without something to min/max or in TMI overload with a system that required them to think about they choices make. There are real and tangible reasons why G.U.R.P.S. never eclipsed AD&D.

Dev

I would so agree with this. It doesn't even have to be free, I could see a quest line type requirement.

the biggest issue with classes are they are completely meaning less. Ok so I am a Templar... what does that mean, there are no quests, gear or anything special about the classes.

I just don't understand why I can equip any armor piece or weapon, be a mage or fighter, vamp or ww and change all of that based on what I equip but these three class abilities are locked and cant do anything else...

hamon

but who would all the dk's get to farm in pvp if we could hurt them back?

hk11

It would be a lot more fun. So what if you could eventually get all the skills maxed? Just pay a very modest respec fee and play whatever you want.

temjiu

Or more specifically...there's a reason most MMO's stick with class archetypes. control and balance. balance is difficult enough as it is in a SPRPG. add in a million other people, and it gets crazy. NORMALLY, classes allow for structured gaming in an environment where your choices impact other people.

In a SPRPG, your choices don't impact other people, hence the control of those choices is much less important.

I actually have a lot of respect for games like this (Rift is another example) where they provide a much more flexible skill system, because it is a pain to balance with an MMO.

Now, as to if ESO did the right thing in making classes that were "part" of the balance, but leaving the rest of the skillsets open...I'm still on the fence with that. not sure if they should have gone even further with class structure or not. MORE class structure actually allows you more flexibility within each given class.

Believe it or not, when they can limit a classes ability to do certain things in the game, it allows them to be more lenient in what the class CAN do. Its easy, as an example, to build a mage archetype when they can't wear heavy armor, can't use melee weapons, etc. you can focus all their skills towards damage dealing, or healing, etc. you don't have to worry if they are going to max the "heavy" armor line and get be too tough to take down while they also get the best DPS.

That's the problem we have now. they've tried imposing caps on stats to keep things in line, but those caps are only hurting the other classes. and they can't overdo the shield line, because the OP dragonknights can use the shield skill just like their templars can. even a sorc can. so when you open up skill trees to all, it limits class diversity. Imagine what they could do if ONLY templars could use shields. the whole issue with the bash damage would be MOOT...because it wasn't a templar issue. it was the design of the bash added to the design of the DK.

but of course, having NO classes is the opposite direction, and nips that in the bud. but then you end up having to homogenize other skills that normally would have more flexibility in the class architecture. As an example, if everyone could take the DK's talons, then the talons would be far less powerful then they are now. Templars healing line would be nerfed, as it was balanced around a class that has little magick regen. imagine templar heals in the hands of a sorc with sorc like magick regen....

I dunno, either way there are decisions to be made. But I think that the reason most MMO's go with class archetype is simple. ease and budget. it works, people are OK with it, and its not the spaghetti mess that an open skill structure brings to a game. and it doesn't leave the budget dry when ti comes to all the other things they know their playerbase will want in the game.

tanthil

aleister wrote: »

So we have a called "dragon knight" running around in robes with staves, another called "night blade" that apparently make great healers and another called a "templar" who can't melee. Just get rid the classes already and open up the skill lines to everyone. The current system will never come close to being balanced.

This should be the easiest game i have ever played to balance, it just requires them actually trying to do it.

There's so little that is class specific

Synfaer

...and add in the traditional elder scrolls magic schools.. Make it available to all. No classes.. Total freedom.

It would create the opposite to total freedom. Access to every skill would create a 'game of clones'.

Dev

temjiu wrote: »

having NO classes is the opposite direction, and nips that in the bud. but then you end up having to homogenize other skills that normally would have more flexibility in the class architecture. As an example, if everyone could take the DK's talons, then the talons would be far less powerful then they are now. Templars healing line would be nerfed, as it was balanced around a class that has little magick regen. imagine templar heals in the hands of a sorc with sorc like magick regen....

I do not understand your logic, if there were no classes, then there would be no need to balance. If everyone has access to the same abilities then there is no such thing as being OP, just the difference between lazy and not. IE you would have to skill them up, but a level 50 skill line is a level 50 skill line.

IE yes you would have a player with 'Templar' heals on a former sorc build, but you would also have 'sorc MP regen' on a former Templar build.

I am a believe that if something is so OP, either level it up or shut up. Nerfs never do anything but *** players off and make some quit. People quitting and bad mouthing the game never helps the bottom line in terms of dollars.

sovreign

The thing is though, they could have done SO much more with class skills. I'm not really against the classes, but the skill progression past 50 is bull***.
Really? Your going to make us trawl through 2x the content we just played to get 50, with no choices on furthering our skill sets? At 50, everything you could want is already morphed. Wtf
Add a more in depth morphing system, add 5 more morphs to ALL skills!? Don't make us play through 8-10 more zones assigning skills to crafting!

Recycled vet content is my biggest issue with this game. 2/3 of content opens up after 50? No my friends, it doesn't. That content is available to you at level 1. Just start in said faction.

Trying to dupe your players with a story loophole then not even changing dialogue to match is cheap. Much like many other aspects of this game.

I still play, don't worry. You have my sub, and I'm sure the developers are angry themselves at the current direction, but all they can do is follow their superiors guidance, and I think that's where the main issue lies with this game.
Disconnected executives with no connection to the gaming community.

/EndRant

Wintersage

Been saying this for ages, now. I'm firmly in the "pick three skill lines and done" camp. Far as I'm concerned, that's the one real meaty change needed to make this game truly feel like an ES game. (Since open-world exploration is not in the cards)

And I remember reading in their AMA that this particular subject was debated quite a bit in-house. Sadly, I think the wrong side won.

And, I'd like to take this opportunity to give a nice fat "lol" to all the people saying it'll ruin the game. Especially given the current state of affairs.

If I could actually play how I want (Say, Daedric Summoning and Storm Calling skill-lines of Sorc and Dawn's Wrath of the Templar) ESO would have my money for years to come.

Nox_Aeterna

Wintersage wrote: »

Been saying this for ages, now. I'm firmly in the "pick three skill lines and done" camp. Far as I'm concerned, that's the one real meaty change needed to make this game truly feel like an ES game. (Since open-world exploration is not in the cards)

And I remember reading in their AMA that this particular subject was debated quite a bit in-house. Sadly, I think the wrong side won.

And, I'd like to take this opportunity to give a nice fat "lol" to all the people saying it'll ruin the game. Especially given the current state of affairs.

If I could actually play how I want (Say, Daedric Summoning and Storm Calling skill-lines of Sorc and Dawn's Wrath of the Templar) ESO would have my money for years to come.

I do think they are better either removing it OR keeping it there (im actually in favor of removing)

But it is better to not allow people to pick 3 at will.

We might be able to do it , because we already played the game and we understand how they work.

But if a new player comes to this game , and is presented with this choice , im already watching a disaster in the making. Honestly , they could make really , really bad combos.

If they add the pick 3 skill lines , there should be a way to change them , be it a quest or something else.

Arreyanne

if they put all the skill lines from Skyrim in the game and allowed you to make whatever, which I thought they were going to do. As soon as the Assassins with a topped off Illusion tree, dual daggers with adsorb stamina on one and absorb magika on the other, start one and two shotting people like they can in Skyrim

To take a line from Ghostbusters, "Who you going to call" then

because we all know if stealth works in any fashion and people get killed the forums light up with threads

aleister

I was being half-facetious when I posted this. I would actually prefer the opposite: more distinct classes and in "Rogue"-types should not be able to heal and "fighter"-types should not be able to cast spells like a mage. But I get that the ES series set a more open precedent, so why not just open it up? This would immediately and permanently solve the balance issue and allow players to truly play their own way.

If it emerged that everyone was gravitating toward a specific style of play, buff one of the other skill lines to make it more appealing, or if necessary nerf another. That way, no one class is getting exclusively targeted.

sovreign

Synfaer wrote: »

...and add in the traditional elder scrolls magic schools.. Make it available to all. No classes.. Total freedom.

It would create the opposite to total freedom. Access to every skill would create a 'game of clones'.

You mean like how everyone plays sorcerer now?

aleister

sovreign wrote: »

The thing is though, they could have done SO much more with class skills. I'm not really against the classes, but the skill progression past 50 is bull***.
Really? Your going to make us trawl through 2x the content we just played to get 50, with no choices on furthering our skill sets? At 50, everything you could want is already morphed. Wtf
Add a more in depth morphing system, add 5 more morphs to ALL skills!? Don't make us play through 8-10 more zones assigning skills to crafting!

Recycled vet content is my biggest issue with this game. 2/3 of content opens up after 50? No my friends, it doesn't. That content is available to you at level 1. Just start in said faction.

Trying to dupe your players with a story loophole then not even changing dialogue to match is cheap. Much like many other aspects of this game.

I still play, don't worry. You have my sub, and I'm sure the developers are angry themselves at the current direction, but all they can do is follow their superiors guidance, and I think that's where the main issue lies with this game.
Disconnected executives with no connection to the gaming community.

/EndRant

Totally agree. Post level 50, this game is a complete train-wreck. They just tacked on a retread of the other factions' gopher quests as a Hail Mary because they realized they didn't have any where near enough content for a AAA MMO and added the VR levels to keep people on the gerbil wheel until they could get Craglorn out. Realizing even that was not enough, add another two VR levels to keep that gerbil wheel spinning!

Enkil

Synfaer wrote: »

...and add in the traditional elder scrolls magic schools.. Make it available to all. No classes.. Total freedom.

It would create the opposite to total freedom. Access to every skill would create a 'game of clones'.

Really? Right now u have 4 classes which only allows for so much variety of those classes.

If players had access to all skill lines as in all preceding Elder Scrolls games, the possible combinations are multiplied exponentially.

If I play a healer nuker, I'm not going to level the same skills as a tank. And if I like to be an arcane archer, I'm not going to take the same skills as a dual-wield barbarian.

They already gave total freedom on weapons and armor so why not magic and utility lines as well??

andersan

Why they even have attributes is beyond me since 0/49/0 is pretty much THE end game (end game?) build for attributes.