Siege weapons / No alliance points for heals or rezzes

Morticielle

At the moment PvP in TESO in my opinion suffers from three big problems:

1. Siege weapons are making to much damage to players. They have a greater range than abilities of the players so they are often the only way to hit an enemy, because they learned very well to stand right outside the range of player abilities. This is a reason why keep sieges atm only consist of players shooting with siege weapons at each other. And due to the fact that there can only be 20 siege weapons many players are forced stand around idle until a spot becomes vacant.

Zenimax has to adress this issue quickly either by nerfing the damage siege weapons do to players or bei increasing the range of player abilities further and decreasing siege wepon range or by changing both.

2. There is no motivation to heal. In other games healers get some pvp points for heals and rezzes. Here you do not get a "thanks" or even some points. Zero motivation for me to give heals. Zenimax' philosophy seems to be "at some point everybody has to heal him/herself and because most healing abilities are aoe effects they will therefore heal others". This is a dumb idea.

3. The numbers of active PvP players have significantly decreased even in Auriel's Bow. When the next campaigns start please reduce their number to three or four.

Cyrodiil is the most beautiful and the best PvP area I have ever seen (and I played DAoC a long time and GW2 too), but atm it is wasted due to bad concepts. Please do something about it!

LonePirate

While some broken mechanics are at fault, the release of Craglorn along with the natural migration of players to campaigns where their faction is winning or is competitive have both reduced populations in some campaigns. The new Celarus campaign may also be a factor here. Another factor is the increase in mob level to VR5, which makes everything in Cyrodiil considerably more difficult for low level players and small groups of all players.

Infraction

You are wrong about getting alliance points for heals in pvp, you do receive points for healing.

frwinters_ESO

Morticielle wrote: »

At the moment PvP in TESO in my opinion suffers from three big problems:

1. Siege weapons are making to much damage to players. They have a greater range than abilities of the players so they are often the only way to hit an enemy, because they learned very well to stand right outside the range of player abilities. This is a reason why keep sieges atm only consist of players shooting with siege weapons at each other. And due to the fact that there can only be 20 siege weapons many players are forced stand around idle until a spot becomes vacant.

Zenimax has to adress this issue quickly either by nerfing the damage siege weapons do to players or bei increasing the range of player abilities further and decreasing siege wepon range or by changing both.

2. There is no motivation to heal. In other games healers get some pvp points for heals and rezzes. Here you do not get a "thanks" or even some points. Zero motivation for me to give heals. Zenimax' philosophy seems to be "at some point everybody has to heal him/herself and because most healing abilities are aoe effects they will therefore heal others". This is a dumb idea.

3. The numbers of active PvP players have significantly decreased even in Auriel's Bow. When the next campaigns start please reduce their number to three or four.

Cyrodiil is the most beautiful and the best PvP area I have ever seen (and I played DAoC a long time and GW2 too), but atm it is wasted due to bad concepts. Please do something about it!

What? Siege weapons work fine. There is really only one siege weapon that can instakill anyone in a shot and thats the flaming oil. the rest you can survive pretty well with postions or just staying outside the red circle.

Healers get TONS of AP. Tons. If your not getting AP for healing you aint doing ti right or you just dont notice. Since most healing is done via AoE they gets points left and right. If you use UI addons such as FTC, it will show you when you get AP.

Morticielle

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

What? Siege weapons work fine. There is really only one siege weapon that can instakill anyone in a shot and thats the flaming oil. the rest you can survive pretty well with postions or just staying outside the red circle.

If you're defending an inner keep you can't "just stay outside the red circle", because there is not enough space to do so. And if you're using a siege weapon to defend then you cannot move around a bit. So much for your faulty logic.

Siege weapons are to powerful atm and this is why everybody tries to use one instead of using the abilities of one's class. This is a very wrong development. One way to solve this problem would be to reduce the damage of siege weapons angainst players significantly so players would revert to using their own abilities instead of siege weapons.

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

-*+Healers get TONS of AP. Tons. If your not getting AP for healing you aint doing ti right or you just dont notice. Since most healing is done via AoE they gets points left and right. If you use UI addons such as FTC, it will show you when you get AP.

Well, I just went to Cyrodiil and for 15 minutes I only gave heals (outside a group) without doing any damage and I actually got AP and I documented the amount of AP I got. Therefore I stand corrected - but only partially. There are three things AP are good for: You can buy things like siege weapons, they count for your rank (for example tyro) and they count for your ranking. But i noticed a discrepancy between those three things. While I got 792 AP as currency and the same amount for my rank, I only got 550 for my ranking. And the ranking seems to be updated only every other minute.

I think that the calculation of the AP for the ranking is faulty and shows to few AP. And because I always look after that AP I might have missed the fact that AP are rewarded for healing.

Bloodvax

you get 23 AP for rezzing other players

Soloeus

I get about 20 AP per heal and if I run around spamming it, my allies all live for it and I get about 800 AP when everyone else brags they just got 10k AP.

Healing should give 5x the exp/ap it gives right now. Otherwise, the only healers will be healbots that don't care about getting AP. Real healers will refocus themselves, leaving their team without healers; or they will remain a healer and never have a respectable amount of AP or EXP from their work.

Inacio2006b16_ESO

There is no problem with siege damage unless you are one of those players that just stand around and die from it. Siege shots are not instant and most of the time you can react to get out of it or you know, heal up and don't get hit by another one straight after you just got hit. There is enough space to get out of a red circle even if you are using siege on inner keeps, you do know that you have enough time to press ALT to get of the siege you are using and dodge roll or even run out of a circle once you see it on the ground.

Lupinemw

Whilst being hit with a Sword is unfriendly having someone drop 1 Ton of flaming rock on your head isn't seen as awfully nice either. So the seige stuff is doing okay.

I'd like to see bow ranges increased a lot, Snipe has a max range of 40m which with a bow isn't that far.

I use FTC and see the points streaming up the screen everytime our healer fires something up.

If anything I'd like to see an increase in AP when you take a place or even beat off an attacker. X modifier if they get in through the wall, y if they get in through the door.

Also this is the PvE area and this should of been posted in the PvP section perhaps?

siuolly

Agree with #3. PvP is fun but should be alot more fun if its balance or at least doesn't look like a ghost town most of the time (I am on Dawnbreaker).

Rev Rielle

I think you get a pretty good amount of AP from healing.
I don't head out there that often, but I'm almost rank 9 and all I basically do is heal. Relative to others that were similarly ranked to me around that time - if anything - my character, by healing, seemed to rank up a little faster than they did. But it's a little tricky to tell exactly, or whether that was just an artifact.

Pyatra

All those people on the walls standing around can go to a safe wall, crouch, swing wide, and burn $)!^ down from behind.

smercgames_ESO

The OP is so troll.. soooo sooo troll. Well the third thing he brings up is valid but 1 and 2 are so ridic it makes me laugh. I can't believe siege weapons have a longer range than I can throw a knife! How dare they allow this!! And Seriously my flying blade should do the same amount of dmg as a giant boulder that was hurled through the air and hit me in the face..

Morticielle

1. Why don't you read ALL of what is written by a poster and instead start flaming the second you read something you disagree on? I wrote in my second posting that I was mistaken regarding the heals, so why flaming me AFTER I posted my correction? Are you discussing or are YOU trolling? Think about it.

2. Why is there this development to use siege weapons instead class abilities or else stand around doing nothing? Most emenies don't come near the sieged keeps, they stand right outside the range of the defenders abilities. People use siege weapons as a substitute to their own abilities because siege weapons do AOE damage and have superior range. If siege weapons would do no damage to players but only to walls, doors and other siege weapons, players would revert to using their own abilities.

People who hate me for saying that siege wepons should do less or even no damage to players are obviously noobs who can't use their class abilities and therefore use a siege weapons as an simple substitute for skill (only one button to use, makes lots of AOE damage).

3. I have a very good movement due to some years of progressive raiding in games where movement is an imperative. My avoidance of impact areas of siege weapons is good. But there are situations this does not help at all. In some keeps and in the outposts the space for the defenders is really tight. If two or more hostile siege weapons cover a large area with overlapping spaces, you're going down nearly instantly even if you evade like hell.

4. Please don't use 'realism' as an argument in a mmorpg, it makes you look stupid.

Liquid_Time

----
People who hate me for saying that siege wepons should do less or even no damage to players are obviously noobs who can't use their class abilities and therefore use a siege weapons as an simple substitute for skill (only one button to use, makes lots of AOE damage).
----

I also do not agree with reducing the damage dealt from siege weapons. I feel it is doing good as is.

Now avoiding the AoE field.. usually there is enough time to avoid this IMO.


Regarding the above quote:
Also, if you are on the wall getting hit from siege weapons and having trouble avoiding the AoE.. You are either using a siege weapon yourself or avoiding the fight on the ground.. I took this opportunity to highlight that in your statement quoted above.

I might be misunderstanding why you are stuck on the wall dodging "over powered" attacks, but I cannot think of many reasons why you are simply standing on the wall and at the same time saying people are "noobs" for not using their class abilities to fight. <-- sorry long sentence

Edit: Seems I broke the quote.. oh well.

OrangeTheCat

I only ever heal when in PvP. The reason is it seems to be the best way to level resto staff skills. I don't really care at all about AP or leaderboards or any of that. But others surely do. But we do get AP for being on offense and defense and capturing stuff. Combat Cloud plugin tells me so.

Morticielle

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

I only ever heal when in PvP. The reason is it seems to be the best way to level resto staff skills. I don't really care at all about AP or leaderboards or any of that. But others surely do. But we do get AP for being on offense and defense and capturing stuff. Combat Cloud plugin tells me so.

Why are you posting this? Didn't you read my postings? I corrected myself in my second posting. Are you also a raging commentator like many others here, who stops reading the second he sees something he does not like, disregarding all other postings ( and therefore my correction too) an instantly posting a lecture about it?

Morticielle

Liquid_Time wrote: »

I might be misunderstanding why you are stuck on the wall dodging "over powered" attacks, but I cannot think of many reasons why you are simply standing on the wall and at the same time saying people are "noobs" for not using their class abilities to fight. <-- sorry long sentence

You are a noob for not reading what I wrote. Because I feel sorry for you, I quote myself:

Morticielle wrote: »

3. I have a very good movement due to some years of progressive raiding in games where movement is an imperative. My avoidance of impact areas of siege weapons is good. But there are situations this does not help at all. In some keeps and in the outposts the space for the defenders is really tight. If two or more hostile siege weapons cover a large area with overlapping spaces, you're going down nearly instantly even if you evade like hell.

If you don't get it now, please let your nanny explain it to you.

Redwyrm

And why exactly this topic is in pve section?

Siege is fine in this game. Much better implemented compare to siege in wvw of gw2.

Liquid_Time

Morticielle wrote: »

Liquid_Time wrote: »

I might be misunderstanding why you are stuck on the wall dodging "over powered" attacks, but I cannot think of many reasons why you are simply standing on the wall and at the same time saying people are "noobs" for not using their class abilities to fight. <-- sorry long sentence

You are a noob for not reading what I wrote. Because I feel sorry for you, I quote myself:

Morticielle wrote: »

3. I have a very good movement due to some years of progressive raiding in games where movement is an imperative. My avoidance of impact areas of siege weapons is good. But there are situations this does not help at all. In some keeps and in the outposts the space for the defenders is really tight. If two or more hostile siege weapons cover a large area with overlapping spaces, you're going down nearly instantly even if you evade like hell.

If you don't get it now, please let your nanny explain it to you.

Well I guess thinking you were intelligent was wrong of me. Sorry to have bothered with an actual discussion. Seems that you feel you are 100% correct and everyone is simply a "noob" for attempting to discuss this with you.

Gedalya

Morticielle wrote: »

1. Siege weapons are making to much damage to players. They have a greater range than abilities of the players so they are often the only way to hit an enemy, because they learned very well to stand right outside the range of player abilities. This is a reason why keep sieges atm only consist of players shooting with siege weapons at each other. And due to the fact that there can only be 20 siege weapons many players are forced stand around idle until a spot becomes vacant.

First, should be: "Siege weapons are making [too] much damage to players." and better, "Siege weapons [cause too] much damage to players."

Second, regarding range; this is how I would expect it to be. That is simply my opinion based on my appraisal of what a "Seige" engine should do and for those that are ranged I'm fairly happy. Thoughts anyone else?

Liquid_Time

@Gedalya
I agree. I feel it is one of the things they did really well in PvP.

Morticielle

Liquid_Time wrote: »

Seems that you feel you are 100% correct and everyone is simply a "noob" for attempting to discuss this with you.

That coming from you is funny, because you feel that you are 100% correct and I'm the one being wrong. And you actually are wrong, because you are constructing situations for your argumentation, that do not really exist. In over 90% of the time there is no ground fight in keep sieges. The attackers stand 45+ meters away, the defenders are on the wall. 20 people firing siege weapons, a handful healing and a lot just standing around.

Anybody who goes out is nearly instantly dead, a handful try it anyway, others are pulled down from some stealthed DK waiting on the ground and getting killed instantly. There isn't hardly any 'ground fight'. There might be some after the attackers are reduced in numbers and are retreating and then I am on the ground chasing them down, while others are standig still on the wall firing with siege weapons into the blue. Please don't confuse me with those noobs.

But as I said before there are often situations while defending the inner keep when the defenders are fired upon by 20 trebuchets and ballistas and there is no place where less then 3 siege weapons are aiming at. Keeps with an inner keep in shape of the outposts are problematic because you often cannot mount an oil cauldron above the main door without being fired upon by 3 or more siege weapons. And there is simply no place to effectively evade the impacts of the siege weapons.

Maybe you're somebody who only besieges keeps and attacks them but never defends them. That would explain your intolerance (or ignorance?) for my arguments. And it would explain why you belive that damage by siege weapons can always be evaded, because attackers usually have more space to maneuver in and can easily evade it.

Anyway, the discussion - if it is actually one - might be pointless, considering the rapidly decreasing numbers of players in ALL campaigns.

Depechenova

Wrong section this is pve ><

Morticielle

Depechenova wrote: »

Wrong section this is pve ><

Your posting changes so much. Thank you for that and God bless you!

Liquid_Time

I don't see the value in this, but I will continue to bite..

Morticielle wrote: »

Liquid_Time wrote: »

Seems that you feel you are 100% correct and everyone is simply a "noob" for attempting to discuss this with you.

That coming from you is funny, because you feel that you are 100% correct and I'm the one being wrong. And you actually are wrong, because you are constructing situations for your argumentation, that do not really exist. In over 90% of the time there is no ground fight in keep sieges. The attackers stand 45+ meters away, the defenders are on the wall. 20 people firing siege weapons, a handful healing and a lot just standing around.

Anybody who goes out is nearly instantly dead, a handful try it anyway, others are pulled down from some stealthed DK waiting on the ground and getting killed instantly. There isn't hardly any 'ground fight'. There might be some after the attackers are reduced in numbers and are retreating and then I am on the ground chasing them down, while others are standig still on the wall firing with siege weapons into the blue. Please don't confuse me with those noobs.

But as I said before there are often situations while defending the inner keep when the defenders are fired upon by 20 trebuchets and ballistas and there is no place where less then 3 siege weapons are aiming at. Keeps with an inner keep in shape of the outposts are problematic because you often cannot mount an oil cauldron above the main door without being fired upon by 3 or more siege weapons. And there is simply no place to effectively evade the impacts of the siege weapons.

Maybe you're somebody who only besieges keeps and attacks them but never defends them. That would explain your intolerance (or ignorance?) for my arguments. And it would explain why you belive that damage by siege weapons can always be evaded, because attackers usually have more space to maneuver in and can easily evade it.

Anyway, the discussion - if it is actually one - might be pointless, considering the rapidly decreasing numbers of players in ALL campaigns.

Yes of course I think I am correct. Does that mean I cannot be proven wrong? No.. it would be a pointless argument if that was the case. I simply do not see the value in reducing the damage of siege weapons to players. The reason you have provided IMO brings no value to the situation. They can be avoided and often are... Also, no where did I say they can "always be avoided" that is simply you misreading my post or I would hope so.

Regarding the combat itself..
I have witnessed so many different combat situations with siege engagements that it is pointless in trying to provide one situation and pretend that always happens. The fight you are describing seems very lackluster in so many ways and most of that is your choice.

If you are standing on the ground or wall firing siege then that is you choice. If you are the guys standing around the ones firing then that is also you choice. You may or may not have relished this by now, but where do you think they are aiming those things... Come on man seriously?

I am a NB and very seldom have I taken part in siege combat since I hit veteran ranks.

If we are defending a keep.. I am behind the attackers picking off players or cutting off their supply line of respawns as are multiple other players that don't enjoy siege weapons. Another thing when defending.. most players have learned to avoid standing near the edge of the walls and even more have learned not to simply jump off and run towards the siege head on...

If we are attacking a keep.. I am in the path of their supply line of players, also picking off respawns..

With that being said... You also have constructed a situation for the sake of your argument. I hope you truly do not think that is the only action in a siege fight.