Rite of Passage is useless

Veakoth

Ok, so Healing Springs stacked on itself once will deal more HoT without weapon skill power than Rite of Passage will with 3 jewellery max enchanted with spellpower.
So basically off the bat the first skill in resto staff does more heals than a class ultimate, it also has range and doesn't require channeling.
So lets argue the morphs
Practiced Incantation - 6 sec duration instead of 4
Apply a third stack of Healing Springs to do just as much

Remembrance - 20% reduced damage taken for up to 4.5 seconds (the obvious choice if you did take this skill) but hang on, nightblades have Consuming Darkness a skill that reduced damage taken by 30% to everyone and 60% to the caster and then there is the Dragon knight Standard of Might morph for 30% more damage dealt and 30% reduced damage taken. Both of these skills last 15 seconds, Templar's lasts 4 sec at the same rank.

Did not even use my class ultimate heal once clearing Aetherian Archives instead found ourselves stacking barrier which is a rank 6 pvp skill since it provides instant cast mitigation.
I'd like the Templar restoration ultimate to be something that is actually useful.

Koensol

It is not meant to be used on self, it has a purpose as a groupheal. The rwdius is pretty damn large and you can use it while out of mana because its an ultimate. With passives you can also get a nice amount of spell resist and maybe also some armor. Its far from useless.

Tankqull

and don´t forget it is not capped at 6 targets. atleast thats what we have been told.

Axer

Yep.

And actually no, the patch notes liked, they actually nerfed remembrance:

how it works now:
Rank1:
Heals for x amount (a decently good amount) for 4 seconds. No longer has ANY damage reduction during the channel. After the channel ends: 1 second of 20% damage reduction.
Rank4:
Goes up to 4.5 seconds of 20% damage reduction. (Again only AFTER the heal)

So yea, ZERO DR given on activation ,and for the next 4 seconds.

It's a functional ultimate, but yea it pales insanely in comparison to DKs. (Especially consider the fact DKs can stack multiple standards all over the map by doing some redimentary aoe, that even level 20s can manage.)

ThatHappyCat

Rite of Passage's primary benefit is it keeps the group up and running for four (or six) seconds without using any magicka. It buys time for the healer to breathe (and regenerate magicka) during chaotic moments.

IMO Practiced Incantation is usually better than Remembrance because the HoT is strong enough to keep people full without the damage reduction; so it's better to keep it going for 50% longer (and regenerate more magicka).

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

its saved my group plenty of times. perhaps you should remind folks that blocking and not standing in red circles is a good thing.

Darrett

I respecced into Practiced Incantation after the nerf of Remembrance. It's not something I'd use much in RvR where you're never going to get 4 seconds of channeling let alone 6, but in PvE it's by far the better choice now.

Axer

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

IMO Practiced Incantation is usually better than Remembrance because the HoT is strong enough to keep people full without the damage reduction; so it's better to keep it going for 50% longer (and regenerate more magicka).

Nope.

By the same logic, the changed remembrance is also more then enough to keep up the whole group during powerful boss aoes, with a very basic amount of healing springs on the group.

Because now technically remembrance lasts 8.5 seconds. (4 healing, and 4.5 of 20% DR)
And while sure the healing is stronger hten the DR, the DR alone is more then enough if your a strong healer to survive thru anything, even the trial bosses AOEs. (some of which last about 10 seconds, so even practiced isn't long enough for).

Plus far more importantly, you can actaully move during the last 4.5 seconds of it, while practiced could very well get you killed, (and potentially of others) in the trials/some dungeons, by being stuck in the animation at the wrong time.

Both morphs are moderately effective though, no real major wrong choice here.

re: OP after running the trial lots, I find the templar ultimate adequate there.. But yea, it should imo outshine the pvp ones and at least match DKs, so could be still more powerful.

Perhaps longer duration on both morphs, ability to cancle easily, and bring back remembrances DR during the channel (in addition to its lingering one, perhaps:

Practice incantation:
Duration increased to 10 seconds
Remembrace:
+30% DR now during channel, Duration increased to 5 seconds
Grants lingering DR20% after, for 5 seconds, this part follows the caster also.

(and yea these upgrades would actually suck if they didnt fix the fact you cant properly cancle this).

Fablelost

After maintance, June, 3
Templar ultimate sticks to heal ONLY 5 RANDOM Raid members + you. So now it's useless in big groups and trials.
Pity. Pity.

Veakoth

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
Please inform your team that Healing Spring is superior to the Templar healing ultimate and all its morphs forcing Templar healers to rank Alliance War to 6 in order to obtain barrier which is used as the main damage mitigation in pve Trials.

Kegero

Fablelost wrote: »

After maintance, June, 3
Templar ultimate sticks to heal ONLY 5 RANDOM Raid members + you. So now it's useless in big groups and trials.
Pity. Pity.

I was under the impression that it heals the 6 people within range that have the fewest hit points left. Was I wrong?

ysimeonoveb17_ESO

@Veakoth‌
Grand Healing is not superior to Rite Of Passage.
Rite of Passage has skill coefficient of 1.2 and ticks 2 times per second.
Grand Healing has skill coefficient of 0.6 and ticks each second for 4 total ticks (5 if Illustrious healing)

If you spam GH, you will stack 0.6 * 4 = 2.4 skill coefficient worth of healing per second. If you cast the ultimate you will have 1.2 * 2 = 2.4. They both have the same coefficients.

Here come the differences, which all favor Rite of Passage:
1) The weapon damage is divided by 1.9 before applying to the skill coefficient for the end value. Base spell damage is 91 which means it is equal to 173 weapon damage. Without spell power glyphs, potions, effects, etc. Just base, as a head start. You can see that 13 weapon damage glyph is 1.9 times inferior to 13 spell damage glyph. So, you can think that you can have a VR12 legendary staff, Rage enchant, weapon damage glyphs, Balanced Warrior, Molten Weapons and what not to boost your weapon damage. Ok, but don't forget WD overcharges at 189, spell power at 159. Under no circumstances you can produce a larger contribution from weapon damage than you can produce from spell power.
2) I won't count Restoration Expert and Restoration Master rstaff passives because they apply to both skills. But Rite of Passage benefits directly from Focused Healing for even more hps. GH doesn't. 30% to be precise. Even if you morph GH to the ultra expensive Illustrious Healing, it gains exactly 25% more hps (less than what Focus Healing gives). Throw Restoring Focus for 15% more and things become even uglier.
3) Remembrance applies the ultra strong damage taken reduction. It is worth as much as the healing itself.

Veakoth

@ysimeonoveb17_ESO
Focused healing and restoring focus both affect all heals including grand healing if you are casting grand healing inside of extended ritual causing grand healing to increase 30% put's it further out ahead of practiced incantation.

I went to test your statistics here is what i found:

1) Practiced incantation does not crit and heals for 288 per 0.5sec with 94 spell power(more than base)

2)With the use of focused healing passive, grand healing pulls 166 per 1sec at 136 weapon damage (base damage) when this skill is spammed on top of itself essentially practiced incantation. Since it magicka recovery morph cast on a trials team will instantly pay for its own cost practiced incantation is rendered useless as it requires ultimate to cast

3)Grand healing doesn't immobilize you and can be cast while moving and on moving targets

4)Grand healing can also be cast at range not requiring you to be in any melee danger or risk aoe dmg while aoe healing from afar

5)The total theoretical heal output for practiced incantation vs Healing Spring is irrelevant since Healing Spring can continually be cast until your caster runs out of magicka which is never because the ability is free cast if you have 9+ people stacked. The only thing that factors in is the burst heal and the difference is very small, i'd prefer the ability to keep those heals going indefinitely over a very slight increase to burst heal.

6) if you think remembrance is good mitigation then consider using the instant cast Barrier instead, its got nearly 1k heal over 30 seconds that doesn't wear off when the barrier does and the barrier itself is 1.1 or 1.2k. More importantly you can continue to cast Healing Spring while your doing it.

Grand Healing is just better.

ysimeonoveb17_ESO

@Veakoth‌
Have you actually used the skills personally? Do you even have a templar?


Focused Healing affects only heals from the templar's Restoring Light tree.

Healing Springs caps at 6 targets for 156 magicka total. It's far from free, please don't use strong words.

Rite of Passage and its morphs can crit in 1.2.0. Go on the PTS 1.2.1 and check for yourself.


And no I won't consider using Barrier instead (crap skill btw, never slot it if you're a templar or nightblade) because it's another skill on the bar. We are comparing the benefits of Rite of Passage compared to plain Grand Healing, not a 5 skill bar? But nothing stops me from using Grand Healing AND Rite of Passage (as I do). With or without Barrier, it doesn't hurt to have it nor does it help only in one of the cases.

Slight burst? How about triple. Stack Grand Healing, start Remembrance and for the next several seconds you have grand healing's healing, remembrance's healing and remembrance's damage reduction. This is not slight. This is huge. And healing only matters in burst phases, for the rest you can cast Extended Ritual, an ineffective hots like Rapid Regeneration or whatever. In fact, you can cast Rapid Regeneration on 12 people, then stack 4 Healing Springs just before the burst comes and you should definitely do so.

Veakoth

@ysimeonoveb17_ESO

ysimeonoveb17_ESO wrote: »

@Veakoth‌
Have you actually used the skills personally? Do you even have a templar?

Yes i do have a Templar, it's currently rank 8 on Wabbajack NA and 13min 11sec on trials NA

ysimeonoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Focused Healing affects only heals from the templar Restorating Light abilities.

This is wrong, it affects all heals and you should test things instead of just reading and interpreting their tooltips.

ysimeonoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Healing Springs caps at 6 targets for 156 magicka total. It's far free, please don't use strong words.

Yes it does cost 0 to cast on 9+ people since Its magicka return gives 26 for each tick especially since it ticks 4 times per person

ysimeonoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Rite of Passage and its morphs can crit in 1.2.0. Go on the PTS 1.2.1 and check for yourself.

Doesn't change the fact that Grand Healing heals better on 12+ people than Rite of Passage does on 12+ people stacked making it useless for trials

ysimeonoveb17_ESO wrote: »

And no I won't consider using Barrier instead (carp skill btw, never slot it if you're a templar or nightblade) because it's another skill. We are comparing Rite of Passage and Grand Healing, not your 5 skill bar, ok? But nothing stops me from using Grand Healing AND Rite of Passage (as I do).

Grand Healing does more heals than Rite of Passage during trials so barrier is a better option as an ultimate instead of having such a useless ultimate like Rite of Passage, this is what i'm trying to tell you.

ysimeonoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Slight burst? How about triple. Stack Grand Healing, start Remembrance and for the next few seconds you have grand healing's healing, remembrance's healing and remembrance's damage reduction. This is not slight. This is tripple. And healing only matters in burst phases, for the rest you can cast Extended Ritual, an ineffective hot like Rapid Regenration or whatever. In fact, you can cast Rapid Regeneration on 12 people, then stack 4 Healing Springs just before the burst comes and you should do so.

Healing Spring does more Heals/Mitigation with Reviving Barrier than it does stacked with Remembrance especially since Remembrance only affects 6 people at a time.
You need to test things, not just read tool tips when you claim one thing is better than another.

ysimeonoveb17_ESO

@Veakoth‌
I feel like talking to the wall. Good that you have something to say about balance and mechanics and want things to be fixed but that's only the beginning. If you expect to be taken seriously you really need to check your facts or it looks lame and people will ignore you from now on. So, one last time:

Focused Healing works ONLY for RESTORING LIGHT skills.

ALL heals have a CAP at 6 (SIX) targets. Including the healing of Rite of Passage, the healing of Healing Springs and the magicka return of Healing Springs.

And, no, I am not looking at tooltips, I am testing things extensively. Now, take your favorite addon, confirm these things above, make an apology and start editing your posts. If they still make sense after the reestimation, we can talk again.

Veakoth

You are indeed correct, Focused Healing now only affects restoring light skills, i am a bit taken back about this because this was not the case pre-last patch and there was nothing in the patch notes about it.

Now i'm in the process of re testing some stuff ill get back to you

JoyEnergiser

ahh well, I need the ulti spot for barrier anyway.

NerfEverything

Yeah all the templar ultimates are pretty much garbage. You can spam sweep if you are templar tank, that's about it. Templars are not good healers, despite most of their class skills being healing skills, Sorcs and NBs will outheal templars all day long with just a resto staff.

The whole class is pretty much broken.

Tankqull

skip the bloody 6target restriction and make it heal an unlimited amount of players and that spell would be usefull again atleast in some circumstances.

ysimeonoveb17_ESO

It is still the best healing / damage prevention spell for effective time spent casting it. It goes like this:

Nova > Remembrance >> Barrier > Illustrious Healing > Healing Springs > Breath of Life > Ritual

Akinos

As a templar, I agree that rite of passage is one of our more useless skills, however that might change when it gets buffed in 1.2.

Rev Rielle

NerfEverything wrote: »

Yeah all the templar ultimates are pretty much garbage. You can spam sweep if you are templar tank, that's about it. Templars are not good healers, despite most of their class skills being healing skills, Sorcs and NBs will outheal templars all day long with just a resto staff.

The whole class is pretty much broken.

I could not disagree with you more.
But this is so far from the truth I'm almost certain it's one of those 'troll' posts.

Tankqull

Rev Rielle wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

Yeah all the templar ultimates are pretty much garbage. You can spam sweep if you are templar tank, that's about it. Templars are not good healers, despite most of their class skills being healing skills, Sorcs and NBs will outheal templars all day long with just a resto staff.

The whole class is pretty much broken.

I could not disagree with you more.
But this is so far from the truth I'm almost certain it's one of those 'troll' posts.

compared with ultis of other classes doing the same or comparable things they are by far weaker but costing tons more. and our unique healing ulti is so weak that it is outpaced by a lvl1 weaponline skill... what else will you call garbage?

Axer

It is useful, but does need a buff to be in line with Veil of Blades/Barrier.

(And this is coming from the raid leader of one of only a small handful of guild that reliable complete Hell Ra)

In Hell ra, it gets you thru the starfall, along with 2-3 others using healing springs. That's it;s purpose, and it does it.

Atm, despite the notes, all support (EG non damage) ultimate do indeed hit at least 12 targets, possibly more.

Remembrance, Barrier, veil of blades all 100% confirmed, other morphs are likely.

The only huge issue here:
They are nerfing THE CRAP out of remembrance next patch, which is imo UNACCEPTABLE.

Veil of blades last about 17 seconds last NB i asked. Remembrance is 8.5 seconds total (4 healing, 4.5 DR). It does NOT deserve a nerf.

If anything they should simply bring the other morph, practiced incandation in line, up to 8.5 seconds of pure healing. That way you have a choice, half damage reduction, or pure healing, both would be viable depending on the situation.

(note 1.2 fixes a bug with both morphs, that will up it's healing by 30% as long as you use extended ritual first)

ysimeonoveb17_ESO

@Axer half of your post makes no sense. Sit down, read the skills again, do the math this time (running semi successful parties doesn't mean you can do 2 + 2), give a 12man template of class compositions for veil of blades, nova, etc and we can talk about ultimate superiority the way it is meant.

By the way sorry to break your bubble, but that crap ultimate barrier is producing a shield that ignores spell resistance and actually is worth ~750 hit points. Besides some very niche uses where you stack it before a single hit occurs to bypass important game mechanics, there are better ultimates.

Axer

ysimeonoveb17_ESO wrote: »

@Axer half of your post makes no sense. Sit down, read the skills again, do the math this time (running semi successful parties doesn't mean you can do 2 + 2), give a 12man template of class compositions for veil of blades, nova, etc and we can talk about ultimate superiority the way it is meant.

By the way sorry to break your bubble, but that crap ultimate barrier is producing a shield that ignores spell resistance and actually is worth ~750 hit points. Besides some very niche uses where you stack it before a single hit occurs to bypass important game mechanics, there are better ultimates.

@‌ysimenamemakesno sense:
All of your post makes no sense.

Math never solves anything, it only further complicates what is a pretty simple game balance issue.

Also you have no idea how barrier works it seems.

Barrier provides a damage shield equal to 50% of your personal maximum hitpoints, for all 12 members standing within range of you in the trial.

For you, it appears you have 1500 health. Congrats on being very squishy.

For me, that's 1500 points (I have 3k health). Pretty insanely powerful.

The other thing about it is that fact all barriers always stack. You can stack up 12 barriers and it's essentially god mode for quite a while (everyone gets around 16,000 effective health for 30 seconds).

Other ults do not stack.

The morph also replenishes itself extremely well, granting as much as 30-60% of the cost of the ultimate back instantly, when used against certain raid boss attacks.

Barrier is by far the most insanely powerful ultimate in the game. And incredibly powerful, and REQUIRED to get the best times on the trials.

Our guilds records would be insanely better if we had more members that unlocked barrier. (We have a 19 minute record that would easily be 9 minutes if we had 12 barriers unlocked)

The PRIME reason the top times are dominated by pvp focused guilds is BARRIER. It is that powerful.

Rite of passage is quite pathetic compared to barrier for trial purposes. It's as I said, functional, but only just barely. The fact it's getting nerfed next patch and barrier is not makes zero sense.

ysimeonoveb17_ESO

"Math never solves anything, "
Here I stopped reading, really. Bye.

So, anyone still claiming templar ultimates are not superior to others and have the proper mathematical proof?

NerfEverything

Yes, I am stating that Templar ultimates are inferior to all the other classes ultimates, and to the other skill line ultimates.

The only time I slot templar ultimates is right after I unlocked them and needed to skill them up.

It is nice that the took the most useful of our useless ultimates and stealth nerfed it in half.