So when are you buffing Daedric Summon damage (like Dark Shades)?

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

the problem is pets mitigation doesnt scale at all. it goes from being perfectly fine in coldharbor to perfectly useless in glenumbra. even running with resto staff and healing it doesnt work. i couldnt care less about the damage pet deals. i need it to taunt and survive in pve for more than 2 seconds. its not like pets are usefull in pvp when everyone just ignores them and laughs at you for having them summoned.
when you balance vet content based on the theory that everyone should have figured out how to block by then and then have pets that cant block. they're going to die instantly. and thats where we are.

so instead of wasting a slot (or 2) for pets i just respeced out of all pet skills and spam crit surge and elemental ring.

if they really wanted to fix summons,
expert summoner would:
add mitigation and a charge for clanfers. its supposed to be the "tanky" pet. let it survive against some trash if we're actively healing it. and let it spend its time actually fighting mobs rather than just chasing them around.
add additional damage and spell haste for volatile familiar its supposed to die anyway so it just needs to do a respectable amount of damage for its magika cost and 10% max reduction.
add reduce the heal cooldown on matriarch and fix it so she actually heals when she's supposed to. and add a detaunt proc to her nuke.
add a stam regen on restoring twilight and add a detaunt proc to her nuke.

make the bound armor line buff the pet as well
and triple the damage shield of empowered ward for the pet. because as it stands now it lasts all of 1 second out of the "20 second" duration. so the pet buff is next to useless

on second thought. leave pets alone. after seeing how you "balance" other skills theres no reason to make them even more worthless.

dracobains_ESO

I am all for fixing garbage lines and abilities if they need addressed and I am quite certain Sorcs have some holes in their class skills. Most people I know who play sorcs find Daedric line a garbage line overall. However, starting a thread trash talking NBs in some false comparison is not a good approach. Personally I think all the animosity being directed at each class is rather absurd.

If the forums are going to serve any meaningful function toward making the game more balanced for everyone then we should really be focused on the particular abilities and stop the aggression toward other classes. We didn't design the skills and only the devs can change them so why hate on me? NBs hate Sorcs and Sorcs hate NB everyone hates DKs and forgets about Temps... it is all rather silly when you honestly think about it.

Give some specifics about your class needs and I will get behind that endeavor as I want competitive fun gameplay. Trash talk me and all you will end up with is a bitter post nobody will give a crud about.

serenity_painted

I'm all for limited duration summons like the real TES games, maby one of them could have a permanent morph so players who enjoy having a pet out still have that option avalible to them.

I'd find a short duration, explosive summons alot more interesting and fun. The concept of summoning a demon that you let loose on your enemies is also alot more apealing to me than having a weaker one following around that just ends up beeing "that disposable *** that makes annoying noises".

I also think it could be fun if bound armor would get the same treatment, or be merged with surge(would leave room open for melee spell? Lightening form could be more about a speed boost or aoe damage? How is it we have all these lightening spells but nothing that makes you attack faster like haste?)

Part of what made summoning weapons and armor fun in Morrowind and Oblivion was getting these powerful temporary items from nowhere. I useto love making my own conjuring spells that made my dress wearing, pansy little Breton into a fully armored limbchopping killing machine, if only for alittle bit.

Ralathar44

There is also a distinct lack of pet focused sets. A few good sets that added some pet bonuses would help a bit.

smercgames_ESO

I love how sorcs complain that pets cost them 2 skill slots yet every toggle in the game costs two if you want it up 100% of the time. Now you can complain that all toggles work that way but the devs wanted it that way for a reason. I'm sure if it was changed people would complain that they couldn't turn Siphoning Strike or Mage Light off without swapping bars.

Also, of all the skills you compare pets to Summon Shade? Summon Shade is one of many joke skills NBs have. So you want one joke sorc line replaced to be as effective and broken as the NB joke skill? Good job. I will trade you, you take the 20 second duration and I'll take a toggle so when they fix pets to not suck I'll have a gank buddy shade.

Crescent

smercgames_ESO wrote: »

I love how sorcs complain that pets cost them 2 skill slots yet every toggle in the game costs two if you want it up 100% of the time. Now you can complain that all toggles work that way but the devs wanted it that way for a reason. I'm sure if it was changed people would complain that they couldn't turn Siphoning Strike or Mage Light off without swapping bars.

Also, of all the skills you compare pets to Summon Shade? Summon Shade is one of many joke skills NBs have. So you want one joke sorc line replaced to be as effective and broken as the NB joke skill? Good job. I will trade you, you take the 20 second duration and I'll take a toggle so when they fix pets to not suck I'll have a gank buddy shade.

Toggles used to only occupy one slot in beta....

And yeah I'll trade you the summons for the shades.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

smercgames_ESO wrote: »

I love how sorcs complain that pets cost them 2 skill slots yet every toggle in the game costs two if you want it up 100% of the time.

if you load all 3 pets its 6 slots.

also 6 points for pets. another 5 in passives. and the crit bonus from magelight in conjuction with any damage spell will put out more dps than using thepets.

TheWired

We can all agree that the Daedric summoning skill line from the sorcerer needs a re-work. I didn't play a sorcerer at VR levels but found that the pets were totally worthless as well. That being said, the whole skill line isn't completely horrible. "Bound armor" is pretty good, the ultimate reduction passive is definitely worth taking and the Atronach was my favorite when soloing.

Now, if you're asking for your summons to be buffed like the "shade(s)" skill from the NB, you're in for a big disappointment as the skill totally sucks.
It looks cool and I really wanted to find a reason for using it but it does absolutely no damage, it stops attacking when your target dies and it doesn't take aggro. No, seriously, I would probably do as much damage hitting you bare handed.

Ilterendi

I for one think Shades is great. First thing you have to wrap your mind around is Shades IS NOT A DPS ABILITY. IT IS MITIGATION, the terrible dps is a byproduct and seemingly occurs only to keep the mitigation up.

Sorc pets are laughably horrible...

Lord_Hev

serenity_painted wrote: »

I'm all for limited duration summons like the real TES games, maby one of them could have a permanent morph so players who enjoy having a pet out still have that option avalible to them.

I'd find a short duration, explosive summons alot more interesting and fun. The concept of summoning a demon that you let loose on your enemies is also alot more apealing to me than having a weaker one following around that just ends up beeing "that disposable *** that makes annoying noises".


Part of what made summoning weapons and armor fun in Morrowind and Oblivion was getting these powerful temporary items from nowhere. I useto love making my own conjuring spells that made my dress wearing, pansy little Breton into a fully armored limbchopping killing machine, if only for alittle bit.

Now we're talking! Exactly how I feel. I cringe at the term "pet." I don't want some little creature tagging along on a "Daedric summoning" skill line. I want a Daedra that instills fear*COUGHDREMORAPLEASEZOSCOUGH*.

Again, why is the Storm Atronach so awesome? Because he's there for only 20 - 30 seconds. But in that small time, he causes havoc. That principle(toned down to magic-resource skill strength rather than Ultimate balanced) needs to be added to the current summons, and then expanded on with new summons. I'm a summoner, not a pet daycare worker. [1]Summoners summon powerful Daedra, but they're drawback comes from their minions being temporary and tactical.


[1]as per TES. I give zero damns how other "MMOS" handle (sigh)"Pets." I want my Daedric summons please. And I want them to be deadly.

Ralathar44

While it's nice we are getting a little attention I do hope for more. Sadly in MMORPG's pet classes are almost always second class citizens because devs are scared of balancing them.

The_Sadist

I find the whole tree line outside of Power Stone, Rebate and the Storm Atronach relatively useless.

I honestly used pets up until level 20 or so for the aggro, but once I gained an AoE spell I gave them the flick and never looked back.

I would love the tree line if the summons weren't toggle based and had a duration like Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim. Make the summons powerful but at the cost drained a lot of magicka.
Furthermore, if they removed the Daedric Curse and Conjured Ward while replacing them with more summons I'd probably be over the moon.

An example change would be something like:

Unstable Familiar (Scamp) -> Morphs into either a Clannfear (as currently is) or an Orgrim, which is more tanky, has access to several point blank AoE spells (knock back, knock down or perhaps a stun) but is ultimately slower compared to a Clannfear.

Daedric Curse removed and replaced with the Bound Armour spell -> Morphs do the same thing but have some sort of secondary ability on summons.

Summoning of a lesser Winged Twilight -> Morphs into Greater Winged Twilight, a fusion of the old two morphs (potentially reworked, can cast heal spell when at 50% when caster / group member drops below the threshold, increase the magicka regeneration and change it to magicka and stamina or something akin to a spell which restores magicka / stamina), or The Hunger, A ranged debuffer which reduces targets armour / damage.

Summoning of a lesser Dremora, A melee based summon which deals fire damage and has access to a shield spell / ranged fire ball spell -> Morphs into lesser Spider Daedra, ranged support summon which has access to several support spells (a group heal, snares and a shock spell) or lesser Xivilai, Rogue like summon, capable of going invisible and dealing high damage, has access to a minor self heal.

Now this is the tricky part...

Can't decide which will take the last slot.

Summoning of a Flame Atronach, mobile and deals fire damage, has a small 'flame aura' which burns nearby enemies for fire damage and has access to an AoE based fire spell which is channelled (think scamps in game) -> Morphs into Frost Atronach, mobile and deals frost damage, has a large 'frost aura' which deals frost damage and snares nearby enemies, has access to a knock down and an AoE frost spell, tank orientated or Storm Atronach, basically a watered down version the ultimate, less hp compared to Frost, but deals more damage and is immobile, has a small 'storm aura' which shocks and potentially disorientates enemies.

OR

Summoning of a Golden Saint, a high DPS melee monster which has access to several spells (self HoT, shield, taunt) Morphs -> Golden Saint Matriarch same as prior but more hp/damage/resistances etc or Dark Seducer, ranged DPS mage which deals higher damage at the cost of being less tanky, has access to more spells (self HoT replaced with group HoT, group shield, high damage magic damage spell, AoE magic damage spell).

With the ultimate being:

Summoning of a Daedroth which has access to several spells (A poison channel spell, an AoE shock spell and a long self HoT which is cast whenever possible) with the Morphs being a longer lasting one with increased health or one which deals more damage.

I just want to see all the Daedra personally! My ideas my suck, but they're just suggestions.

Given the nature of summoning, they will cost a load of magicka and will have a duration, due to the amount of magicka required they can't be spammed.

smercgames_ESO

Crescent wrote: »

smercgames_ESO wrote: »

I love how sorcs complain that pets cost them 2 skill slots yet every toggle in the game costs two if you want it up 100% of the time. Now you can complain that all toggles work that way but the devs wanted it that way for a reason. I'm sure if it was changed people would complain that they couldn't turn Siphoning Strike or Mage Light off without swapping bars.

Also, of all the skills you compare pets to Summon Shade? Summon Shade is one of many joke skills NBs have. So you want one joke sorc line replaced to be as effective and broken as the NB joke skill? Good job. I will trade you, you take the 20 second duration and I'll take a toggle so when they fix pets to not suck I'll have a gank buddy shade.

Toggles used to only occupy one slot in beta....

And yeah I'll trade you the summons for the shades.

Which was probably change d for balance purposes. They would have to give toggles to every class. I'm not 100% familiar with all the skills in the game but DKs and Templars do not have a toggle correct? Keeping toggles on when changing bars would essentially be giving NBs a free slot for Siphon and Sorcs a free slot for Armor and Summons. Everyone would also run around with Mage Light on because why the heck not?

Crescent

smercgames_ESO wrote: »

Crescent wrote: »

smercgames_ESO wrote: »

I love how sorcs complain that pets cost them 2 skill slots yet every toggle in the game costs two if you want it up 100% of the time. Now you can complain that all toggles work that way but the devs wanted it that way for a reason. I'm sure if it was changed people would complain that they couldn't turn Siphoning Strike or Mage Light off without swapping bars.

Also, of all the skills you compare pets to Summon Shade? Summon Shade is one of many joke skills NBs have. So you want one joke sorc line replaced to be as effective and broken as the NB joke skill? Good job. I will trade you, you take the 20 second duration and I'll take a toggle so when they fix pets to not suck I'll have a gank buddy shade.

Toggles used to only occupy one slot in beta....

And yeah I'll trade you the summons for the shades.

Which was probably change d for balance purposes. They would have to give toggles to every class. I'm not 100% familiar with all the skills in the game but DKs and Templars do not have a toggle correct? Keeping toggles on when changing bars would essentially be giving NBs a free slot for Siphon and Sorcs a free slot for Armor and Summons. Everyone would also run around with Mage Light on because why the heck not?

Not everything would run mage light because not everyone wants to sacrifice a skill slot they'd put on an active ability.

More importantly, what you call balance is laughable considering nobody seriously uses the summons. If you call balance useless skills that nobody wastes their bar slots on, then they sure as hell succeeded at that.

Hypertionb14_ESO

a single hit from a shade does about 20-30 damage.

A hit from Clanfear does about 100-200, Twilight 200+

At present shades cant actually hold hate, mobs will ignore them the moment they see you.

Clanfear can usually get hate with a single tail swipe from a group and will hold it, twilight can pull hate from a single target off of the clanfear if close to the target and even at range.

shades reduce damage by 15%, cant be directly target by mobs but only last a short time. a morph can spawn 2, but this lowers their already pitiful damage.

Clanfear and Twilight have HP, with the Clanfear having almost 3k by Vet1 and the twilight 1.5k at best. the Twilight can heal you for a huge amount with a morph. both are kept out constantly, and a passive exists that will restore their upkeeps if they die, or restore double their upkeep depending on level.

there really is no compairison, Flat out the Summoned pets are better in every aspect.... Power, CC, Sustainability...

Crescent

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

a single hit from a shade does about 20-30 damage.

A hit from Clanfear does about 100-200, Twilight 200+

At present shades cant actually hold hate, mobs will ignore them the moment they see you.

Clanfear can usually get hate with a single tail swipe from a group and will hold it, twilight can pull hate from a single target off of the clanfear if close to the target and even at range.

shades reduce damage by 15%, cant be directly target by mobs but only last a short time. a morph can spawn 2, but this lowers their already pitiful damage.

Clanfear and Twilight have HP, with the Clanfear having almost 3k by Vet1 and the twilight 1.5k at best. the Twilight can heal you for a huge amount with a morph. both are kept out constantly, and a passive exists that will restore their upkeeps if they die, or restore double their upkeep depending on level.

there really is no compairison, Flat out the Summoned pets are better in every aspect.... Power, CC, Sustainability...

LOLOLOLOL

Twilight heal fails to activate most of the time, happens at 35% health which in vet ranks is about 2 attacks from a mob, and the heal is a channel over time so you don't get it immediately when you need it.

Moreover, you won't get it because mobs prioritize the summon over you, so they kill her in about 3 attacks.

Unlike shades she is a 2 second recast time, a recast time where you can't block so you're eating damage.

And in dungeons since they, unlike shades, can be targeted, they die immediately.

Rebate on a 2.2k magicka pool returns 440 magicka upon summon death. The summons themselves cost around 600 magicka. And in the time you are resummoning, you are doing no damage.

The Clannfear is absolutely worthless, it charges when it doesn't even need to and breaks CC like Rune Prison.

The Shades cost 1 skill point and 1 skill bar slot. The summons cost 4 passives in skill points, take up an entire skill line, occupy 2 skill bar slots and cost three times the amount of shades while providing no real benefit. And most importantly, they die immediately in dungeons because they can be targeted.

Ralathar44

Crescent wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

a single hit from a shade does about 20-30 damage.

A hit from Clanfear does about 100-200, Twilight 200+

At present shades cant actually hold hate, mobs will ignore them the moment they see you.

Clanfear can usually get hate with a single tail swipe from a group and will hold it, twilight can pull hate from a single target off of the clanfear if close to the target and even at range.

shades reduce damage by 15%, cant be directly target by mobs but only last a short time. a morph can spawn 2, but this lowers their already pitiful damage.

Clanfear and Twilight have HP, with the Clanfear having almost 3k by Vet1 and the twilight 1.5k at best. the Twilight can heal you for a huge amount with a morph. both are kept out constantly, and a passive exists that will restore their upkeeps if they die, or restore double their upkeep depending on level.

there really is no compairison, Flat out the Summoned pets are better in every aspect.... Power, CC, Sustainability...

LOLOLOLOL

Twilight heal fails to activate most of the time, happens at 35% health which in vet ranks is about 2 attacks from a mob, and the heal is a channel over time so you don't get it immediately when you need it.

Moreover, you won't get it because mobs prioritize the summon over you, so they kill her in about 3 attacks.

Unlike shades she is a 2 second recast time, a recast time where you can't block so you're eating damage.

And in dungeons since they, unlike shades, can be targeted, they die immediately.

Rebate on a 2.2k magicka pool returns 440 magicka upon summon death. The summons themselves cost around 600 magicka. And in the time you are resummoning, you are doing no damage.

The Clannfear is absolutely worthless, it charges when it doesn't even need to and breaks CC like Rune Prison.

The Shades cost 1 skill point and 1 skill bar slot. The summons cost 4 passives in skill points, take up an entire skill line, occupy 2 skill bar slots and cost three times the amount of shades while providing no real benefit. And most importantly, they die immediately in dungeons because they can be targeted.

Meanwhile shades are nothing more than a flavored damage debuff and only become competitive or better than the other pets in Vet content.

But there is ALOT of builds, skills, and abilities in this game that scale poorly into vet content.

You act like this is a pet issue, it's not. It's an overall game issue and affects many builds, skills, and weapons.

Crescent

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Crescent wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

a single hit from a shade does about 20-30 damage.

A hit from Clanfear does about 100-200, Twilight 200+

At present shades cant actually hold hate, mobs will ignore them the moment they see you.

Clanfear can usually get hate with a single tail swipe from a group and will hold it, twilight can pull hate from a single target off of the clanfear if close to the target and even at range.

shades reduce damage by 15%, cant be directly target by mobs but only last a short time. a morph can spawn 2, but this lowers their already pitiful damage.

Clanfear and Twilight have HP, with the Clanfear having almost 3k by Vet1 and the twilight 1.5k at best. the Twilight can heal you for a huge amount with a morph. both are kept out constantly, and a passive exists that will restore their upkeeps if they die, or restore double their upkeep depending on level.

there really is no compairison, Flat out the Summoned pets are better in every aspect.... Power, CC, Sustainability...

LOLOLOLOL

Twilight heal fails to activate most of the time, happens at 35% health which in vet ranks is about 2 attacks from a mob, and the heal is a channel over time so you don't get it immediately when you need it.

Moreover, you won't get it because mobs prioritize the summon over you, so they kill her in about 3 attacks.

Unlike shades she is a 2 second recast time, a recast time where you can't block so you're eating damage.

And in dungeons since they, unlike shades, can be targeted, they die immediately.

Rebate on a 2.2k magicka pool returns 440 magicka upon summon death. The summons themselves cost around 600 magicka. And in the time you are resummoning, you are doing no damage.

The Clannfear is absolutely worthless, it charges when it doesn't even need to and breaks CC like Rune Prison.

The Shades cost 1 skill point and 1 skill bar slot. The summons cost 4 passives in skill points, take up an entire skill line, occupy 2 skill bar slots and cost three times the amount of shades while providing no real benefit. And most importantly, they die immediately in dungeons because they can be targeted.

Meanwhile shades are nothing more than a flavored damage debuff and only become competitive or better than the other pets in Vet content.

But there is ALOT of builds, skills, and abilities in this game that scale poorly into vet content.

You act like this is a pet issue, it's not. It's an overall game issue and affects many builds, skills, and weapons.

But this is one entire skill line for the sorcerer wasted whereas no other class has an entire skill line dedicated to a broken mechanism.

People like to complain that sorcerers are well off but really they just mean destro staff skills because only Stormcalling is good, and in Dark Magic you only really use crystal fragments, but post patch even crushing shock from destro staff is better DPS so you don't even use dark magic line either.

The skills sorcerers use are critical surge, endless fury, and maybe thundering presence in PvE. The rest come from destruction staff and mage's guild, which is available to everybody else.

Ralathar44

Crescent wrote: »

But this is one entire skill line for the sorcerer wasted whereas no other class has an entire skill line dedicated to a broken mechanism.

Nightblades say hi.

People like to complain that sorcerers are well off but really they just mean destro staff skills because only Stormcalling is good, and in Dark Magic you only really use crystal fragments, but post patch even crushing shock from destro staff is better DPS so you don't even use dark magic line either.

If viewed from a strict DPS perspective you might be right, but that still doesn't mean that skills like encase are bad skills. Daedric Curse is commonly used as well.

Also in end game content CC becomes alot more important and as the game is balanced and alot of the overperforming abilities are brought down this will only be more true.

No doubt during this time some Sorc abilities will be tweaked as well.


Of course all of this is completely non-sequitur and in reality has nothing to do with the pet line being balanced one way or another. It's a fine red herring though.

Crescent

All the nightblade skill lines have skills used in endgame DPS and healing roles. Tanking as well. There are no competitive sorcerer tanks, and sorcerer healers are outranked by both NB and Templar healers in trials.

If you use daedric curse you're doing it wrong (it's a DPS loss over crushing shock/light attack weaving), and CC is useless as bosses are CC immune plus Encase costs a metric ton of mana which translates into a DPS loss from having to do 2 spell symmetries just to make up for its cost.

DPS perspective and group mitigation is the only thing that matters in ENDGAME PVE. You impulse crap down and drop a Negate Magic, that's pretty much the gist of things for trash pulls, and in a boss any ability that isn't related to DPS is a wasted slot.

DeLindsay

This is a joke right? Shade damage is beyond pathetic, the only purpose for them is to reduce the damage the enemy is doing to YOU (and they're bugged most of the time). Comparing them to anything in the Daedric Summoning tree is lols.

BrassRazoo

The Winged Twilight is useless.
She pulls so much aggro, and has so little health, she is dead before any benefit to you occurs.
I gave up on her ages ago.
I only call the Familiar out every now and then and just use him as a suicide bomber.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

focusing purley on healing and shielding of my pets is the best non-cc boss build ive got, those pesky bosses that cant be cc'd take longer to kill, but there is little to no risk of dying