Nightblade Update

SilverWF

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Yup... See, mine was a plurality, meaning more than one Nightblade is asking for fixes.

Not, this spelling means "ALL Nbs", not "some Nbs", not "Few NBS", not "me and that guy NBs"
"Nightblades" means only "all of them".

ShedsHisTail

I would say that's open to interpretation.

Enesse

One day, fellow nightblades...one day.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

SilverWF wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Yup... See, mine was a plurality, meaning more than one Nightblade is asking for fixes.

Not, this spelling means "ALL Nbs", not "some Nbs", not "Few NBS", not "me and that guy NBs"
"Nightblades" means only "all of them".

You are, factually, incorrect. Nightblades, literally, means more than one Nightblade. The only thing that means "all nightblades" is, well, "all nightblades". If you say you've fought Nightblades in PVP does that mean you've fought ALL of them? Of course not.

You make decent points about NBs asking for buffs (not the other-class nerfs bit - there isn't much of that in this thread). We have tended to look for buffs to make the class more competitive as a stamina build but I think that's not really a class issue. We should get fixes to the NB and they should buff mundane weapons for ALL classes rather than, necessarily, nerf staffs/light armour.

There should be no further nerfs in the game at this point now that DKs have been balanced more (they intend to nerf them more which is wrong IMO) and Bolt-Escape has been fixed. Sorcerers have some awesome improvements coming to the class which are exciting, IMO, to make up for BE but DKs don't really have anything to look forward to but nerfs. That's not great. Templars have nothing at all. NB's.. not sure. So far I see nothing that affects me. I'm not nerfed or buffed by anything here really. And none of the fixes do anything for me. Some of the changes will have some positive/negative changes for some builds but nothing particularly interesting.

Step 1: Fix it (fix Dark Cloak for the love of...).
Step 2: Buff/adjust mundane weapons for ALL classes
Step 3: Relax and see how it pans out and fix the rest of the game...

zhevon

ferzalrwb17_ESO wrote: »

You make decent points about NBs asking for buffs (not the other-class nerfs bit - there isn't much of that in this thread). We have tended to look for buffs to make the class more competitive as a stamina build but I think that's not really a class issue. We should get fixes to the NB and they should buff mundane weapons for ALL classes rather than, necessarily, nerf staffs/light armour.

There should be no further nerfs in the game at this point now that DKs have been balanced more (they intend to nerf them more which is wrong IMO) and Bolt-Escape has been fixed. Sorcerers have some awesome improvements coming to the class which are exciting, IMO, to make up for BE but DKs don't really have anything to look forward to but nerfs. That's not great. Templars have nothing at all. NB's.. not sure. So far I see nothing that affects me. I'm not nerfed or buffed by anything here really. And none of the fixes do anything for me. Some of the changes will have some positive/negative changes for some builds but nothing particularly interesting.

Step 1: Fix it (fix Dark Cloak for the love of...).
Step 2: Buff/adjust mundane weapons for ALL classes
Step 3: Relax and see how it pans out and fix the rest of the game...

Really nice writeup ... I really wish they would fix stuff and allow things to settle before the nerf bat swings on any class.

However, NB does need to have a bit more coherence as a class and a bit more survivability. My complaint over-and-over again is that I have to be over leveled for the material while every other class out there seems to stroll through areas under leveled. Maybe not everybody does but its rare that I see a non-nightblade at my level or above (except people really far above getting a quest, shard, or whatever). I am not talking about vet-levels just normal ones..

OkieDokie

Just a heads up, I'm not flaming anyone, just talking. So, please, don't take it as criticism.

Aziz006 wrote: »

NB caster has high DPS. For those who says NB sucks at DPS you are wrong. NB sucks at melee(and especially Bow) DPS but I have seen guys who sustain 600 DPS as melee NB dual wield on both bar.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l2h_c4pB8f8

Don't get me wrong, it is really nice video. However, you could try to reproduce that in pve, pick any dungeon boss, just to see the difference (without alliance/group buffs). Would it be around 650-750 (in vr12 gear)? How do you compare that to dks and sorcs?

SilverWF wrote: »

Teh short video for you all, guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k9lfjehN94

Good video.

The problem is single target dps and you were getting there 300-400 for 3 packs fight (even starting with sneak), that is not a good dps. In that boss fight, you've got 350+-. A caster would get 580-700 or maybe more according to equips/potions, but I would say 6xx high.

So, I think our parameter for high dps is different.

Jacques Berge

I've found that this combo usually kills any other player... Concealed weapons, flurry, soul harvest(%275), killer's blade. I haven't come across many people who could survive that 2 second dps burst at v12. It's fun, most groups can't even respond fast enough before you go back into stealth. However, concealed weapons will sometimes not do damage at all for some reason, flurry will have a delayed activation, and my ultimate will periodically go to 0 for no damn reason. Too many people have that damn Mage light, ruins the entire build... I'm waiting for the move that bypasses shields and negates heals. (Yeah, I rhymed. Big whoop, ya wanna fight about it?). All in all I have a blast... But when it's a build that beats me in a fight, not a player, well, it hurts my soul lol. NBs can kill the crap out of stuff... It's just very situational :-/ ....

Also, dark shades is awesome in pvp... Well awesome funny... Drives non NBs nuts. I get away from so many duos who get hung up trying to fight the damn things. While I slink away and then sit there and munch on some popcorn and enjoy the show hahaha.

jelliedsoup

Islyn wrote: »

I love my NB and I dominate with her - even in Craglorn, even at vr7 and

yelloweyedemon wrote: »

Funny because when I jump people on my NB they are dead before they shout for help

So why not back up that statement with a build spec? :disagree:

And use weapons and medium armour?

jelliedsoup

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Fixes.
Nightblades are asking for fixes; not buffs.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Careful with the generalities there, bro.

Really?

Yup... See, mine was a plurality, meaning more than one Nightblade is asking for fixes.

Yours was a generality meaning all Nightblades are asking for buffs.

It's the word "all." Avoid it.

I want my skills to work and be competative using weapons in a 1v1 when I have the initiative.

jelliedsoup

That's too much to ask for some.

Jeddahwe

Maybe the game is designed that class skills (Magicka) are your main source of whatever it is you are doing and weapon skills are support?

Give me one build that is weapon based with class skills supporting it? None, at least none that actually stands up in group play PvE wise...Because that is how they made the game.

I know some are running DW builds in PvP with good results (like Templar DW) but once you try high end PvE that all changes!

NinjaApacHe

No fixes on today's patch. So...... sleep along my poor NB......

SilverWF

OkieDokie wrote: »

The problem is single target dps and you were getting there 300-400 for 3 packs fight (even starting with sneak), that is not a good dps. In that boss fight, you've got 350+-. A caster would get 580-700 or maybe more according to equips/potions, but I would say 6xx high.

So, I think our parameter for high dps is different.

CLS shows wrong numbers.
Recount usually shows 2 times more

OkieDokie

SilverWF wrote: »

OkieDokie wrote: »

The problem is single target dps and you were getting there 300-400 for 3 packs fight (even starting with sneak), that is not a good dps. In that boss fight, you've got 350+-. A caster would get 580-700 or maybe more according to equips/potions, but I would say 6xx high.

So, I think our parameter for high dps is different.

CLS shows wrong numbers.
Recount usually shows 2 times more

I run both here, they are mostly even. Yeah, sometimes they go crazy, but in average they are fine. In fact, most of the time cls shows me higher damage.

And you can see it in the video anyway. The same type of dungeon 'mini boss', I can break 1k if I don't get knocked back or have to block. And I don't consider my dps high, because this is very situation. In normal vr pve I hardly get 800 single target (except for sneak).

khele23eb17_ESO

Jeddahwe wrote: »

Maybe the game is designed that class skills (Magicka) are your main source of whatever it is you are doing and weapon skills are support?

If that was true theyd have called them 'utility skills' or 'support skills' and designed them so that theyre all about... well, supporting, not dealing dmg :P The way they are now they have as much support functionality as class skills which leads me to believe your theory isnt right. Also.... staves.

SilverWF

This game was designed that way - must using magicka.
And only two types of specs possible:
1. Using mostly magicka and lesser stamina
2. Using mostly stamina and lesser magicka

There will never be another types, especially "pure"-stamina
WTF is that? Using weapon skills only and Fighter guild skills? Lol, give me two!

You have known about that at beta, you bought the game in this state - WTF you moan about it now?

MurfRocks

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Copied from Another Thread:


I think I speak for many who prefer the Nightblade class when I say we appreciate the special attention and your willingness to let us in on you and the Dev Team's future plans for the class.

I think I also speak for many Nightblades when I say that these fixes should be given special priority.

Your game has four classes, each loosely based on the standard RPG archetypes; Fighter (DK), Mage (Sorc), Rogue (NB), and Healer (Temp). One of those four is broken. Not imbalanced and in need of nerfs or buffs; broken. Now, assuming there's a pretty even distribution of character populations, that's a full 25% of characters with basic functions which do not work.

That's a very different issue than characters whose abilities might be a over-/under-powered. At least those work.

Now, back to the issue of Archetypes.

One of the arguments regularly encountered by people asking for Nightblade fixes is that "Nightblades are fine, just use X build." where X build is something rather far outside the archetypal box. Yes, ESO is a game which allows us to break the mold, and that's awesome; but some of us -want- to play the archetype. Some of us want to sneak around, jumping in and out of shadows with blades flashing in the torchlight. Some of us want hide in the shrubs and pick off targets with our mad archery skills. But unfortunately, those most definitively archetypal builds are unreliable at best, and essentially invalid after about VR2.

It saddens me to know that the issues with this class are so varied and so well known that I'm not longer desired for group play. I sort of expected the variety of character builds to help negate that sort of attitude because your Class would matter less than what you've decided to do with it; but anymore, everyone knows of the Nightblade's issues and, regardless of build, few groups want to be burdened with them.

So, yeah, even though I've been patiently awaiting the lackluster fixes in build 1.1.2 and defending your Dev Team and encouraging patience among the community, the rumor that we may not see any -real- fixes until 1.2 is disappointing. Really disappointing.

Four to Six weeks between major content updates, that's your timeline. That's two to three months since release, for Nightblades, until basic functionality is granted to their class. That's like buying a car and then having the dealer tell you it'll be 90 days before you can have tires. The A/C works, the stereo works, heck, the power windows work, but you aren't going anywhere.

It's unacceptable.

This issue needs special attention and it needs to come well before 1.2.

Sincerely,

Sheds-His-Tail
Coward

SilverWF

MurfRocks wrote: »

Your game has four classes, each loosely based on the standard RPG archetypes; Fighter (DK), Mage (Sorc), Rogue (NB), and Healer (Temp).

This
This is completely wrong! And that's why all moaners have their "problems" - stereotypic mind.
This came from WOWers but this is not about TESO!

Here you can be everyone you want at every class - all you need is change your gear and sometimes tune your skills.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

glad to see some fixes coming. I DO HOWEVER wish you would remove the bleed from lotus fan seeing that is is useless, and just increase the overall damage of the skill. It is so weak it is not even funny. NB needs some AoE, this would be a GREAT start.

To everyone else complaining about NB and it's "arch-type". I think you may be playing the game wrong, because I routinely go between burst DPS matching that of most DK's and sorc (obviously single target since these two classes DO have better AoE), I tank vet dungeons on a regular basis, and I even act as secondary healer. Sure there are some broken skills and skills that need a buff or two to make them more attractive, but saying the class is just useless means you are a scrub who needs to just learn how to play his/her class or you need to stop pugging it. Simple as that.

O, and for real?! saying you will quite NB if they don't buff medium armor and dual wield......I cannot stress how ridiculous this statement is.....first off, ALL classes can use MA and DW, it's not a dual NB specific thing. My god where do these people come from?

Mablung

I don't even play my NB anymore. Does anyone posting about how bad they are still play the class?

jelliedsoup

I killed a vr 3 sorcs with sneak, aambush, heavy attack,surprise attack. Killer's blade last night.

No ***. I was as shocked you would be.

I'm vr 3 too.

Daethz

Fix stamina weapons before even looking at classes please.

OkieDokie

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

glad to see some fixes coming. I DO HOWEVER wish you would remove the bleed from lotus fan seeing that is is useless, and just increase the overall damage of the skill. It is so weak it is not even funny. NB needs some AoE, this would be a GREAT start.

This is the one of the two things I disagree completely in this entire thread.

Sap essence is, in my opinion, the best pve AoE in the game. I did that 'shores of something or something of shores' recently, where you have to kill two huge packs (18?) during the boss fight that ends bangkorai quests. Could take all of them at the same time and didn't cost me a single health pot.

Damage is good enough and it allows you to tank all melees enemies you can gather. Honestly, I think it is way better than impulse (and you can mix it with a buffed impulse or any other weapon skill if you like).

Ok, might not be as good as dark talons, because of the utility of DT in pvp. But anyway, it is an amazing skill.

Darkonflare15

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

glad to see some fixes coming. I DO HOWEVER wish you would remove the bleed from lotus fan seeing that is is useless, and just increase the overall damage of the skill. It is so weak it is not even funny. NB needs some AoE, this would be a GREAT start.

To everyone else complaining about NB and it's "arch-type". I think you may be playing the game wrong, because I routinely go between burst DPS matching that of most DK's and sorc (obviously single target since these two classes DO have better AoE), I tank vet dungeons on a regular basis, and I even act as secondary healer. Sure there are some broken skills and skills that need a buff or two to make them more attractive, but saying the class is just useless means you are a scrub who needs to just learn how to play his/her class or you need to stop pugging it. Simple as that.

O, and for real?! saying you will quite NB if they don't buff medium armor and dual wield......I cannot stress how ridiculous this statement is.....first off, ALL classes can use MA and DW, it's not a dual NB specific thing. My god where do these people come from?

Dude chill, You do not seem to understand. The skills in night blade class are suppose to help people sneak and do damage to enemies the problem is that the night blade class do not have a lot skills that do a lot of damage stamina wise. Yes Medium armor and dual wield would help other classes but it would help night blades more because the skills would work well with the class. Dk and sorcerers have a lot skills they can fall back on when their weapons are not doing a lot of damage while night blades can not because the weapons skills are not at the best place right now. People in general wants to be able use weapons and medium armor to the full but they can not that is the problem. That is why people are complaining. I want to be able to use my weapons to defeat enemies but I have to rely on magic skills that do not do that much damage. Since the magic skills does do much damage you would thing the weapons would do more damage but they not they need to fix weapons skills to synergize better with the night blade class since they do have high damaging abilities.

I want to use a bow with the night blade class but moves like haste does not work with the weapon. The point of a Night blade is to use magic to augment my weapon and self to kill enemies or improve my chances of killing them with stealth and speed. If I can not use skill to help me do damage with a weapon what is the point of the class. Its a class that suppose to work with all weapon regardless of what is good and what is bad. Play a class a specific way goes against the games motto. So telling people they need to know how to play their class is stupid if the way they suppose play class is broken.

Aziz006

OkieDokie wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, it is really nice video. However, you could try to reproduce that in pve, pick any dungeon boss, just to see the difference (without alliance/group buffs). Would it be around 650-750 (in vr12 gear)? How do you compare that to dks and sorcs?

I have seen a DK with 1350 ST DPS at trials, sorcs get just over 1k. So still not comperable but every class works different maybe we didn't figured out that effective rotation yet.

Aziz006

For those who insist on using melee build:
Max your magicka and spell damage before you max your stamina and slot flawless dawnbreaker. Ideally DW on both bars is good option. You will have better execute DPS than NB casters but not you will run out of magicka faster.

Finally it is not high damage that makes caster have more DPS. It is all about animation cancelling and DoTs. Melee attack animation cancelling is kind of lame. Melee build also are not good at resource management.

Or just quit

Lyall84

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

Your own DoTs are not the only thing that break you out of stealth. For example, whenever I am fighting a NPC that dual wields, and they use the sparks or w/e the debuff is that gives me a 15% chance to miss, that debuff does not do any damage, but causes me to break out of invisibility when I use Shadowy Disguise after a half second. So with the debuff on me, I can spam through my magicka bar until it is dry and not go invisible for long enough to avoid a single hit.

There are several other issues with the Shadowy Disguise and its counterpart morph, in PvP for example. If I am in melee range, players just have to swing in my general direction or AoE or whatever, and it knocks us out of invisibility. This ability is the only thing close to a "OH SH**!" button that night blades have sole access to. Templars and Sorcerers have a 30% damage shield they can throw up that lasts for 8 seconds I believe, and Dragon Knights have a 30% heal. Those are huge sources of relief when they are about to die. Night Blades get a 2.5 (2.9 with passives) second invisibility that can be prematurely ended.

My suggestion, make the invisibility last for the full 2.9 seconds unless another ability is triggered. Not saying make us immune to the damage of DoTs or AoE or anything overpowered. I am saying that for the whopping 420 magicka we have to spend each time we cast that, we should stay invisible for the full 2.9 seconds unless we cast another ability. Make it so the only thing that can negate that invisibly is another Night Blade with Piercing Mark.

Mentioning the Marks, be it Mark Target, Piercing Mark, or Reaper's Mark...this ability should only be visible to the caster, not the target or anyone else. Nothing throws up a bigger flag of "YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE ASSASSINATED" than a huge black and red beam of death sprouting from your feet. Every time I try and mark someone to kill them, first thing they do is sit there and hold down block. Making any surprise attack I may try useless. The only real use I get out of this ability is against NPCs or from ranged during mass PvP battles when people are too busy dodging siege to notice the mark.

One last stone I would like to throw before I stop ranting. Siphoning Strikes/Attacks and Leeching Strikes. There was a note about fixing the tool tip on Siphoning Attacks, that is good and all, but that was not what the entire thread that was responded to was complaining about. The complaint is that Leeching strikes only restores 2.4% per attack instead of the 4% that is advertised. Another more personal issue I have with that entire ability and it's morphs is that it is based on attack, vs rate. What I mean, is that anyone that does anything other than dual wield with this ability is gimped. Someone that is dual wield with daggers can probably get 3 hits off in 2 seconds, while some one that is using a two handed weapon is only getting off maybe 2 hits in that same 2 seconds.

Instead of basic attacks restoring 4% Magicka/Stamina every strike, it should increase Magicka/Stamina regeneration by 100% or whatever for 3 seconds (I am guessing 100% because at VR10, and no magicka points, I have 1200 or so magicka. With dual wield at 3 strikes every 2 seconds that is 12% of my base magicka, or roughly 140 magicka regeneration every 2 seconds. My magicka regeneration is 84 with 3 set warlock, so doubling that would actually be a nerf for dual wield, but an increase for two handed). For part two of the ability, instead of 10% chance on light/heavy attacks to restore 15% Magicka/Stamina, it should be once very X seconds light/heavy attacks restore 15% Magicka/Stamina. Tweak the X seconds as required to make the ability balanced. Then Siphoning Attacks morph, adds all attacks to the regeneration and restoration proc. Leeching Strikes morph, adds health regeneration (it should also had health restoration to the once every X seconds but currently does not). That would make the ability useful to fast attackers, and slower two handed attackers, not to mention the morph choices a harder choice to make.

My 2 cents. Sorry for the ranting wall of text.

khele23eb17_ESO

SilverWF wrote: »

Here you can be everyone you want at every class - all you need is change your gear and sometimes tune your skills.[/b]

As long as you're using a staff and wearing a robe :P The other options dont measure up.

AKSb16_ESO2

SilverWF wrote: »

MurfRocks wrote: »

Your game has four classes, each loosely based on the standard RPG archetypes; Fighter (DK), Mage (Sorc), Rogue (NB), and Healer (Temp).

This
This is completely wrong! And that's why all moaners have their "problems" - stereotypic mind.
This came from WOWers but this is not about TESO!

Here you can be everyone you want at every class - all you need is change your gear and sometimes tune your skills.

Hahaha! xD
Here you can be everyone you want at every class - all you need is using a staff

Eivar

Lyall84 wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

Your own DoTs are not the only thing that break you out of stealth. For example, whenever I am fighting a NPC that dual wields, and they use the sparks or w/e the debuff is that gives me a 15% chance to miss, that debuff does not do any damage, but causes me to break out of invisibility when I use Shadowy Disguise after a half second. So with the debuff on me, I can spam through my magicka bar until it is dry and not go invisible for long enough to avoid a single hit.

There are several other issues with the Shadowy Disguise and its counterpart morph, in PvP for example. If I am in melee range, players just have to swing in my general direction or AoE or whatever, and it knocks us out of invisibility. This ability is the only thing close to a "OH SH**!" button that night blades have sole access to. Templars and Sorcerers have a 30% damage shield they can throw up that lasts for 8 seconds I believe, and Dragon Knights have a 30% heal. Those are huge sources of relief when they are about to die. Night Blades get a 2.5 (2.9 with passives) second invisibility that can be prematurely ended.

My suggestion, make the invisibility last for the full 2.9 seconds unless another ability is triggered. Not saying make us immune to the damage of DoTs or AoE or anything overpowered. I am saying that for the whopping 420 magicka we have to spend each time we cast that, we should stay invisible for the full 2.9 seconds unless we cast another ability. Make it so the only thing that can negate that invisibly is another Night Blade with Piercing Mark.

Mentioning the Marks, be it Mark Target, Piercing Mark, or Reaper's Mark...this ability should only be visible to the caster, not the target or anyone else. Nothing throws up a bigger flag of "YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE ASSASSINATED" than a huge black and red beam of death sprouting from your feet. Every time I try and mark someone to kill them, first thing they do is sit there and hold down block. Making any surprise attack I may try useless. The only real use I get out of this ability is against NPCs or from ranged during mass PvP battles when people are too busy dodging siege to notice the mark.

One last stone I would like to throw before I stop ranting. Siphoning Strikes/Attacks and Leeching Strikes. There was a note about fixing the tool tip on Siphoning Attacks, that is good and all, but that was not what the entire thread that was responded to was complaining about. The complaint is that Leeching strikes only restores 2.4% per attack instead of the 4% that is advertised. Another more personal issue I have with that entire ability and it's morphs is that it is based on attack, vs rate. What I mean, is that anyone that does anything other than dual wield with this ability is gimped. Someone that is dual wield with daggers can probably get 3 hits off in 2 seconds, while some one that is using a two handed weapon is only getting off maybe 2 hits in that same 2 seconds.

Instead of basic attacks restoring 4% Magicka/Stamina every strike, it should increase Magicka/Stamina regeneration by 100% or whatever for 3 seconds (I am guessing 100% because at VR10, and no magicka points, I have 1200 or so magicka. With dual wield at 3 strikes every 2 seconds that is 12% of my base magicka, or roughly 140 magicka regeneration every 2 seconds. My magicka regeneration is 84 with 3 set warlock, so doubling that would actually be a nerf for dual wield, but an increase for two handed). For part two of the ability, instead of 10% chance on light/heavy attacks to restore 15% Magicka/Stamina, it should be once very X seconds light/heavy attacks restore 15% Magicka/Stamina. Tweak the X seconds as required to make the ability balanced. Then Siphoning Attacks morph, adds all attacks to the regeneration and restoration proc. Leeching Strikes morph, adds health regeneration (it should also had health restoration to the once every X seconds but currently does not). That would make the ability useful to fast attackers, and slower two handed attackers, not to mention the morph choices a harder choice to make.

My 2 cents. Sorry for the ranting wall of text.

Imo for Leeching Strikes they'd be better off scaling the heal off the weapon speed, ie faster weapons heal less, big ones more, so it would even out to the same across the weapons.