So, 1.1.2 nerfed talon and impulse, buffed entropy

crislevin

Interesting, so Talon has a smaller radius, impulse has higher cost, entropy has lower cost and higher damage.

anybody know the exact data on these changes?

Xancathb16_ESO

You'll know when the servers come up guy, the impulse and talon change is new in 1.1.2 and even PTS people didn't know about it.

Maverick827

Increaing the cost of abilities is not the right way to go. They're only making heavy armor worse/light armor better. Are they going to keep ignoring how overpowered light armor is and just keep increasing the cost of abilities whenever they want to balance them until heavy armor wearers can't even cast them once?

vicNBitis

The nerf to Talons isn't enough. They need to fundamentally change the skill. It's unlike anything else in the game. Hopefully the radius change will cut down on how abuse-able it is in PvE but I doubt it.

Ciedoc

its a choice you have to make. I learned this lesson during beta. If you want to use class abilities (ie magicka abilities) more than weapon skills...heavy armor is not the way to go. I wanted to make a Nord two handed sorc in heavy armor and was constantly out of magicka. So launch I made a Breten two handed sorc in light armor and while I can run myself out of magicka in a longer fight I can cast a lot more often and regen much quicker. Lesson learned. Learn the armor classes...Light for magicka and spell resists. Medium for crit and stam regen, Heavy for health and health regen.

I wanted the heavy armor protection on my sorc instead of being a squishy and quickly found out to have the armor I lost magicka so ultimately I ended up in light armor so I could cast more than 4 or 5 spells. We can't have it all...if you wear light armor you won't last as long as you will in heavy armor but in heavy you wont be able to cast as often as you can in light.

Over powered light armor LOL got to love peoples definitions of Over powered. In light you give up health regen and crit to have more magicka and resists. Its all trade offs and how you play. If you are class ability heavy use light. If you are weapon skill heavy use medium. If you want health or to tank use heavy. pretty straight forward. You can always mix and match and try to find the right balance to be a hybrid but there are good and bad to that approach as well.

TheBull

vicNBitis wrote: »

The nerf to Talons isn't enough. They need to fundamentally change the skill. It's unlike anything else in the game. Hopefully the radius change will cut down on how abuse-able it is in PvE but I doubt it.

NB who is a Talon spam hater here. They made one change that could make a noticeable difference. Immunity while dodge rolling. It will be interesting to test in a bit.

PhoenixWing

I wonder how much entropy is going to be buffed. It needs to be buffed like 3x or more damage to be even remotely useful imo. I think the previous one is like 170 damage over 12 seconds.

alexj4596b14_ESO

PhoenixWing wrote: »

I wonder how much entropy is going to be buffed. It needs to be buffed like 3x or more damage to be even remotely useful imo. I think the previous one is like 170 damage over 12 seconds.

it was not the damage that was even an issue the heals from it were vary nice!, atlest as a tanking scorc, now i have more damage and its even lower cost so now i can cast it on more then 3 people without having too worry about magic going too be lovely!

crislevin wrote: »

Interesting, so Talon has a smaller radius, impulse has higher cost, entropy has lower cost and higher damage.

anybody know the exact data on these changes?

ok so entropy would only do 200 damage on apply so it they buffed it to x3 it would be op, however if they made a 1.5 increase it wouldn't be op it would just be on par with other single target ability's.

Orain

Maybe a good sorc single target rotation now could be:
Critical Surge > Degeneration (entropy) > Velocious curse > Crystal Fragments > Crystal Frag

Then repeat Vel Curse > Cf > Cf until dead

Wifeaggro13

Maverick827 wrote: »

Increaing the cost of abilities is not the right way to go. They're only making heavy armor worse/light armor better. Are they going to keep ignoring how overpowered light armor is and just keep increasing the cost of abilities whenever they want to balance them until heavy armor wearers can't even cast them once?

I dont think they have clue how to fix this mess.just change the name of this game to caster scrolls online. I think it is going to get worse before it gets better.

Ruddertail

Orain wrote: »

Maybe a good sorc single target rotation now could be:
Critical Surge > Degeneration (entropy) > Velocious curse > Crystal Fragments > Crystal Frag

Then repeat Vel Curse > Cf > Cf until dead

Remove critical surge from that, it's not used in a single target rotation unless soloing. Velocious curse can stay or leave. Degeneration > Crystals > Symmetry is how it'll be.

Wifeaggro13

TheBull wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

The nerf to Talons isn't enough. They need to fundamentally change the skill. It's unlike anything else in the game. Hopefully the radius change will cut down on how abuse-able it is in PvE but I doubt it.

NB who is a Talon spam hater here. They made one change that could make a noticeable difference. Immunity while dodge rolling. It will be interesting to test in a bit.

Which will stilll be
*** because stamina regen and medium armor passives are garbage

vicNBitis

TheBull wrote: »

NB who is a Talon spam hater here. They made one change that could make a noticeable difference. Immunity while dodge rolling. It will be interesting to test in a bit.

Since this is a PvE subforum I try to limit my commentary to PvE. The roll dodge change is meaningless here.

Still_Mind

Maverick827 wrote: »

Increaing the cost of abilities is not the right way to go. They're only making heavy armor worse/light armor better. Are they going to keep ignoring how overpowered light armor is and just keep increasing the cost of abilities whenever they want to balance them until heavy armor wearers can't even cast them once?

Bolded for truth. This absolutely is an issue.

Maverick827

vicNBitis wrote: »

The nerf to Talons isn't enough. They need to fundamentally change the skill. It's unlike anything else in the game. Hopefully the radius change will cut down on how abuse-able it is in PvE but I doubt it.

Talons was never a huge part of those crazy solo dungeon videos. It was light armor/destro/resto/furnace/etc. Most didn't even have it on their bars, they just took the hits.

vicNBitis

When I did I ever say it was? My whole contention is that Talons is unlike any other skill in the game. For that reason alone it needs to be changed.

Nerf it 1,000 times without changing the fundamentals and I'll still say it needs to be changed.

Still_Mind

vicNBitis wrote: »

When I did I ever say it was? My whole contention is that Talons is unlike any other skill in the game. For that reason alone it needs to be changed.

Nerf it 1,000 times without changing the fundamentals and I'll still say it needs to be changed.

"Bolt escape is unlike any other class skill in the game"
"Shadowcloak is unlike any other class skill in the game"
"Eclipse is unlike any other skill in the game"

Do they need to be changed, as well? Do you want classes with homogenized mechanics with different animations?

vicNBitis

Still_Mind wrote: »

"Bolt escape is unlike any other class skill in the game"
"Shadowcloak is unlike any other class skill in the game"
"Eclipse is unlike any other skill in the game"

Do they need to be changed, as well? Do you want classes with homogenized mechanics with different animations?

If those other skills have ALL of the things below, then yes, they'd need to be changed as well:

1) crowd control
2) damage-over-time or debuff
3) direct damage
4) synergy
5) non-ultimate
6) tier 2
7) spammable cost
8) instant cast

Wifeaggro13

Maverick827 wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

The nerf to Talons isn't enough. They need to fundamentally change the skill. It's unlike anything else in the game. Hopefully the radius change will cut down on how abuse-able it is in PvE but I doubt it.

Talons was never a huge part of those crazy solo dungeon videos. It was light armor/destro/resto/furnace/etc. Most didn't even have it on their bars, they just took the hits.

3 of the 5 abilities used on both bars were not even DK abilities.

Still_Mind

I suppose DKs should be grateful to you for accenting the attention on Talons, because Talons, by far, aren't the strongest mechanic that this class has to offer.

And, I may add, far from being the strongest mechanic in the game.

DKs are a choke point class. Talons is a role-defining skill, like it or not. ZOE may tweak the numbers, but DKs will retain mechanics that are necessary for their unique role. After all, it's not ZOE's fault that they're so good against mindless zergs, and player zergs can be pretty mindless, even on a MMO monster AI scale.

Baphomet

Impulse cost went up with 43 magicka. Destructive reach went up by 22 but now deals 28 more damage (hopefully it can crit now too). Force shock went up with ~55 damage but now the dark elf passives don't work with it anymore.

Wifeaggro13

Still_Mind wrote: »

I suppose DKs should be grateful to you for accenting the attention on Talons, because Talons, by far, aren't the strongest mechanic that this class has to offer.

And, I may add, far from being the strongest mechanic in the game.

the strongest thing we have to offer is utility and survivability. The problem is the synergy between the light armor passives making us able to have unlimited self healing resources with PB aoe ulti building. truthfuly our DPs is meh with out Light armor and banner spammer build.
What needs to be fixed is light armor synergizing with our abilities to create non exhaustable resources while still having the mitigation and armor of a heavy plate wearing player as well as having maxed health. Increasing Heavy and medium armor passives while restricting certain abilities to synergize with light armor. changing spiked armor to restrict magica and make it a toggle would help greatly. just like pet sorcs get penalized.
Also increasing melee damage across the board would make Magica builds less desire able. being that stam is used for sprinting dodging and weapon abilities is part of the problem. while magica is not used for anything but abilities on top of that many of the Melee abilities damage is increased by magica is sense less. I dont play one of these builds but it is so damn tempting to reroll a dunnmer DK in light armor and wreck shop.

vicNBitis

Still_Mind wrote: »

I suppose DKs should be grateful to you for accenting the attention on Talons, because Talons, by far, aren't the strongest mechanic that this class has to offer.

And, I may add, far from being the strongest mechanic in the game.

DKs are a choke point class. Talons is a role-defining skill, like it or not. ZOE may tweak the numbers, but DKs will retain mechanics that are necessary for their unique role. After all, it's not ZOE's fault that they're so good against mindless zergs, and player zergs can be pretty mindless, even on a MMO monster AI scale.

This is a PvE sub-forum. If you want to spew your PvP rationalizations there's a place for that.

And I never said Talons was the strongest mechanic DKs have to offer. It's just the most obscenely obvious non-ultimate OP skill they have. The others can be nerfed. Talons needs to be changed fundamentally.

Orain

Baphomet wrote: »

Impulse cost went up with 43 magicka. Destructive reach went up by 22 but now deals 28 more damage (hopefully it can crit now too). Force shock went up with ~55 damage but now the dark elf passives don't work with it anymore.

up 43... thats not so bad though I may still try a new Sorc AoE rotation without Pulsar:
Critical Surge > Volatile Familiar > Spell Symmetry > Detonate Volatile...

Then repeat Vot Fam > Sym > and Detonate until done

And use Mages' Wrath for straglers

Still_Mind

vicNBitis wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

I suppose DKs should be grateful to you for accenting the attention on Talons, because Talons, by far, aren't the strongest mechanic that this class has to offer.

And, I may add, far from being the strongest mechanic in the game.

DKs are a choke point class. Talons is a role-defining skill, like it or not. ZOE may tweak the numbers, but DKs will retain mechanics that are necessary for their unique role. After all, it's not ZOE's fault that they're so good against mindless zergs, and player zergs can be pretty mindless, even on a MMO monster AI scale.

This is a PvE sub-forum. If you want to spew your PvP rationalizations there's a place for that.

And I never said Talons was the strongest mechanic DKs have to offer. It's just the most obscenely obvious non-ultimate OP skill they have. The others can be nerfed. Talons needs to be changed fundamentally.

There's no PvP class skills subforum. Do expect PvP references to be present here.

Ok, so let's imagine if DKs don't have Talons. What happens? Nothing terrible. They start using Cinder Storm as an alternative. This removes the AoE root, but acts as an AoE snare+accuracy debuff. Should we nerf\fundamentally change this, as well?

Attorneyatlawl

vicNBitis wrote: »

The nerf to Talons isn't enough. They need to fundamentally change the skill. It's unlike anything else in the game. Hopefully the radius change will cut down on how abuse-able it is in PvE but I doubt it.

Encase ring a bell from sorcerer? Also adds 15 percent crit chance. That said I support a 2 second immunity when breaking a root with dodge roll or cleanse. That rewards playing well by making it so you can get out of being rerooted right away.

Attorneyatlawl

Still_Mind wrote: »

I suppose DKs should be grateful to you for accenting the attention on Talons, because Talons, by far, aren't the strongest mechanic that this class has to offer.

And, I may add, far from being the strongest mechanic in the game.

DKs are a choke point class. Talons is a role-defining skill, like it or not. ZOE may tweak the numbers, but DKs will retain mechanics that are necessary for their unique role. After all, it's not ZOE's fault that they're so good against mindless zergs, and player zergs can be pretty mindless, even on a MMO monster AI scale.

Yup, used to joke in warhammer that your average mob was about as smart as an average zergling.

vicNBitis

Still_Mind wrote: »

There's no PvP class skills subforum. Do expect PvP references to be present here.

Ok, so let's imagine if DKs don't have Talons. What happens? Nothing terrible. They start using Cinder Storm as an alternative. This removes the AoE root, but acts as an AoE snare+accuracy debuff. Should we nerf\fundamentally change this, as well?

What happens? They put Volcanic Rune on their bar like other classes that wants an AOE cc. Is this a trick question?

Cinder Storm is fine in comparison to Talons. As is every other skill which is why I keep saying Talons is unlike any other skill. It just is.

vicNBitis

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Encase ring a bell from sorcerer? Also adds 15 percent crit chance. That said I support a 2 second immunity when breaking a root with dodge roll or cleanse. That rewards playing well by making it so you can get out of being rerooted right away.

Encase is pretty close to Talons as far as an all-encompassing skill but it's not in the same universe as Talons. Talons is unlike any other skill in the game.

Wifeaggro13

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

The nerf to Talons isn't enough. They need to fundamentally change the skill. It's unlike anything else in the game. Hopefully the radius change will cut down on how abuse-able it is in PvE but I doubt it.

Encase ring a bell from sorcerer? Also adds 15 percent crit chance. That said I support a 2 second immunity when breaking a root with dodge roll or cleanse. That rewards playing well by making it so you can get out of being rerooted right away.

Nah i would rather they fix it so more then one build is top tier. Light armor is superior to heavy armor with Dk skills. not saying the general joe could do what your doing with the build there is quite a bit of player skill still required. but its clear the light armor builds are superior.

Still_Mind

vicNBitis wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

There's no PvP class skills subforum. Do expect PvP references to be present here.

Ok, so let's imagine if DKs don't have Talons. What happens? Nothing terrible. They start using Cinder Storm as an alternative. This removes the AoE root, but acts as an AoE snare+accuracy debuff. Should we nerf\fundamentally change this, as well?

What happens? They put Volcanic Rune on their bar like other classes that wants an AOE cc. Is this a trick question?

Cinder Storm is fine in comparison to Talons. As is every other skill which is why I keep saying Talons is unlike any other skill. It just is.

How's that fundamentally different? The cost is comparable, root is switched out by a different utility.

Why the hate on Talons, specifically? The Synergy? Will you be satisfied if it's removed?