Are these the worst PVP scenarios yet?

Rowjoh · April 2022

Just witnessed the most imbalanced PVP scenario I've ever experienced in this or any other game I've played.

The scenario:
EP players running around DC home gate, with infinite sustain, infinite heals, super fast, with good damage, giving the run around to 25+ DC players.

Oh, the ridiculous part:
There were just 2 of them. And when one got bored and ran off the other one maintained the run around, impossible to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage significantly and able to double back and kill a player or two at will.

If it's not possible for 25+ opponents to defeat 2 players let alone 20+ not able to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage 1 player then ZoS needs to accept there are genuine immortal builds in their game and seriously look into it.

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons, and given ZoS repeated attempts at 'balance' over every one of the 8 years of existence one can only conclude and be dismayed that it's arrived at an all time low.

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

Rowjoh wrote: »

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons

Yup, this is one of the worst PvP metas this game has ever had. Players seem to die either "instantly" or "never" and it's driving players of every skill level away. The more casual players are tired of being repeatedly stomped by much smaller groups seemingly immune to everything they throw at them, then on the other end, the more tryhard players are tired of all the stalemates, non-fights, and homogenized play patterns.

Exeter411 · April 2022

Was this in GH on PC NA? I've seen a couple of EP players there that fit that description. I've learned when they turn up to just ride away, and hope they don't chase because they can run down my maxed out horse at full gallop. I only saw them taken down once when a certain DC guild ball group showed up and killed them.

BlossomDead · April 2022

Happens on EU too, rest assured. PvP in my opinion needs to be a little more standardized and streamlined than overall content to allow for fairer encounters, easier balance/patch management and lower entry skill level (which could help revitalize the community a little). The gap is enormous and it's not entirely skill based, some of the antics pulled in PvP are simply unaddressed or unreported exploits.

And add-on disablement in all PvP zones. No extra info or unpublished devilish third party tools allowed other than what we all see on the vanilla screen provided by default.

TheMightyRevan · April 2022

Rowjoh wrote: »

Just witnessed the most imbalanced PVP scenario I've ever experienced in this or any other game I've played.

The scenario:
EP players running around DC home gate, with infinite sustain, infinite heals, super fast, with good damage, giving the run around to 25+ DC players.

Oh, the ridiculous part:
There were just 2 of them. And when one got bored and ran off the other one maintained the run around, impossible to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage significantly and able to double back and kill a player or two at will.

If it's not possible for 25+ opponents to defeat 2 players let alone 20+ not able to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage 1 player then ZoS needs to accept there are genuine immortal builds in their game and seriously look into it.

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons, and given ZoS repeated attempts at 'balance' over every one of the 8 years of existence one can only conclude and be dismayed that it's arrived at an all time low.

Maybe you should improve on your gameplay and then you might have a chance

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Maybe you should improve on your gameplay and then you might have a chance

Yea tell the casuals to git gud, that always works. Spoiler, they don't, they just quit and PvP dies a little more. This unkillable group nonsense is toxic one-sided fun just as bad as those stealth inferno one shots.

blktauna · April 2022

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Just witnessed the most imbalanced PVP scenario I've ever experienced in this or any other game I've played.

The scenario:
EP players running around DC home gate, with infinite sustain, infinite heals, super fast, with good damage, giving the run around to 25+ DC players.

Oh, the ridiculous part:
There were just 2 of them. And when one got bored and ran off the other one maintained the run around, impossible to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage significantly and able to double back and kill a player or two at will.

If it's not possible for 25+ opponents to defeat 2 players let alone 20+ not able to catch, or snare, or stun, or damage 1 player then ZoS needs to accept there are genuine immortal builds in their game and seriously look into it.

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons, and given ZoS repeated attempts at 'balance' over every one of the 8 years of existence one can only conclude and be dismayed that it's arrived at an all time low.

Maybe you should improve on your gameplay and then you might have a chance

Revan we know who some of these people are. Git gud is not the answer.

MentalxHammer · April 2022

This has little to do with their builds, and more to do with their skill. The skill ceiling in this game is very high, in my opinion this makes the game amazing to play and really worth mastering. The ability to take on groups of players solo with enough time and effort is an experience no other game can offer on this level.

divnyi · April 2022

This meta is absolutely horrible in how tough everyone is. Most of the players I've been playing against stalemate in 1vs1. Like, I've had a fight where dude was trying again and again to kill me for 20 minutes today.

Healing is very strong. Stronger HPS than top DPS pvp setups can yield - completely outhealing top DPS setup in 1v1.

New set that gives damage and crit resist remove even the chance to end stalemate with crit spike, as without any boosts to crit it means -20% basic -20% from set, 1.1x modifier.

I liked every meta where players died. This is not the meta where players die.

TechMaybeHic · April 2022

I held out forever but even I started running procs and group stack HOTs. Not how I like to play, but how I have to.

Minalan · April 2022

Every patch the devs have to come up with new and horribly unbalanced sets to sell their new thing, place, or dungeon.

They don’t care if some boot trinket that allows permanent immunity to snares and immobilize destroys PVP.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · April 2022

MentalxHammer wrote: »

This has little to do with their builds, and more to do with their skill. The skill ceiling in this game is very high, in my opinion this makes the game amazing to play and really worth mastering. The ability to take on groups of players solo with enough time and effort is an experience no other game can offer on this level.

That's true for the elite 5% of the players who can afford the time to make PvP a part time job. The other 95% of us get tired of it after awhile and leave PvP.

VaranisArano · April 2022

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Maybe you should improve on your gameplay and then you might have a chance

Yea tell the casuals to git gud, that always works. Spoiler, they don't, they just quit and PvP dies a little more. This unkillable group nonsense is toxic one-sided fun just as bad as those stealth inferno one shots.

There were only 2 of the unkillable players according to the OP. Then one of them continued to 1vX successfully.

Now, it'd possible that this was a 2v players playing badly. Most successful 1vX is.

But if the opposing players were playing well, that's a level of 1vX I haven't seen that since before the Morrowind nerfs.

noobfury · April 2022

Clearly, adjusting the risk versus reward factor would alleviate the problem somewhat.

My DK risks nothing and gets everything with a tank build including damage

My Stamsorc risks everything and gets nothing building damage and so does my NB to a lesser extent.

My DK gets beat on by a group until they finally kill it or ends up in stale mate 1v1

My Stamcorc runs away from everyone or gets killed in the blink of an eye.

I'm tired of having to build tanks on everything. I would like to build damage for a change but it never works.

PvP_Exploiter · April 2022

BlossomDead wrote: »

Happens on EU too, rest assured. PvP in my opinion needs to be a little more standardized and streamlined than overall content to allow for fairer encounters, easier balance/patch management and lower entry skill level (which could help revitalize the community a little). The gap is enormous and it's not entirely skill based, some of the antics pulled in PvP are simply unaddressed or unreported exploits.

And add-on disablement in all PvP zones. No extra info or unpublished devilish third party tools allowed other than what we all see on the vanilla screen provided by default.

What do you mean by "fairer encounters"?
Looks pretty unfair to me ganging up 25v2.

If you struggle to 25v2 maybe those 25 should try and improve their build knowledge, game knowledge & skill rather than calling for nerfs.

TechMaybeHic · April 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

BlossomDead wrote: »

Happens on EU too, rest assured. PvP in my opinion needs to be a little more standardized and streamlined than overall content to allow for fairer encounters, easier balance/patch management and lower entry skill level (which could help revitalize the community a little). The gap is enormous and it's not entirely skill based, some of the antics pulled in PvP are simply unaddressed or unreported exploits.

And add-on disablement in all PvP zones. No extra info or unpublished devilish third party tools allowed other than what we all see on the vanilla screen provided by default.

What do you mean by "fairer encounters"?
Looks pretty unfair to me ganging up 25v2.

If you struggle to 25v2 maybe those 25 should try and improve their build knowledge, game knowledge & skill rather than calling for nerfs.

Let's be fair here. Not their fault they're just spamming caltrops for dark convergence. They used to be able to just spam Stampede

Tommy_The_Gun · April 2022

Rowjoh wrote: »

Any MMO that enables and tolerates immortal builds is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons

Tbh. the "Meta" is the endless cycle. We had high damage meta with one-shot ganking (even with bow at some point). We had high healing meta, we had tank meta... then again high damage meta etc.

The point is - it is all connected.

Right now we have a "Proc-set" meta. Some sets are too powerful too not to use them (DC, PB, Caluurion). People are making tanky builds in response to ridiculous damage output proc set can do. Armour value itself is not enough. You need high HP pool to not get bursted down and over the top self heal to get out of execute range fast. And like I have said - tanky builds exists because damage is also very high right now. So players have adapted to high damage. And the reason for that is quite simple - you can not have fun when you are dead.

Also - one important point. "Unkillable" means that player who decides to use such build - will not be able to kill anything, as they dont have any damage potential at all.

xFocused · April 2022

This reminds me of the tower runners/resource trolls. We kept running into the same 5 DC last night who would capture Fare lumber, siege from the tower and when we tried to engage them, they would just run almost all the way to crops until we gave up because honestly, it's pointless to keep chasing them. When we did engage them they just would not die, no matter how many stuns, immobilizations, ulti dumps we dropped, nothing worked. I don't get it sometimes. You can't ignore them because they'll flag the keep and that causes it's own issues. Just frustrating

xylena_lazarow · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

I don't get it sometimes. You can't ignore them because they'll flag the keep and that causes it's own issues. Just frustrating

They don't care about the objective. They're a troll group holding it hostage in order to goad weaker disorganized players into going there to be "farmed." Should stronger opposition show, they will run around heal blobbing to stalemate the fight until the stronger opponents get bored and leave, at which point the troll group resumes their PvP god power fantasy of stomping much weaker disorganized opposition. These sorts of toxic play patterns drive players away just as much as the performance.

Dem_kitkats1 · April 2022

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

BlossomDead wrote: »

Happens on EU too, rest assured. PvP in my opinion needs to be a little more standardized and streamlined than overall content to allow for fairer encounters, easier balance/patch management and lower entry skill level (which could help revitalize the community a little). The gap is enormous and it's not entirely skill based, some of the antics pulled in PvP are simply unaddressed or unreported exploits.

And add-on disablement in all PvP zones. No extra info or unpublished devilish third party tools allowed other than what we all see on the vanilla screen provided by default.

What do you mean by "fairer encounters"?
Looks pretty unfair to me ganging up 25v2.

If you struggle to 25v2 maybe those 25 should try and improve their build knowledge, game knowledge & skill rather than calling for nerfs.

Fair as in no matter how unskilled/weak 25 players are, it should still be viable for them to take down 1 or 2 players. Players shouldn't be able to walk away unscathed because they can exploit ridiculous healing, l.o.s, and combos of sets and skills that make them invincible to counters. Knowledge and skill can't make up for having no viable options to counter these players. The fact that builds like this can even exist demonstrates the great imbalances that exist in this game. It's a problem when even skilled players can't kill eachother, let alone any new players who have the advantage of numbers.

xFocused · April 2022

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

BlossomDead wrote: »

Happens on EU too, rest assured. PvP in my opinion needs to be a little more standardized and streamlined than overall content to allow for fairer encounters, easier balance/patch management and lower entry skill level (which could help revitalize the community a little). The gap is enormous and it's not entirely skill based, some of the antics pulled in PvP are simply unaddressed or unreported exploits.

And add-on disablement in all PvP zones. No extra info or unpublished devilish third party tools allowed other than what we all see on the vanilla screen provided by default.

What do you mean by "fairer encounters"?
Looks pretty unfair to me ganging up 25v2.

If you struggle to 25v2 maybe those 25 should try and improve their build knowledge, game knowledge & skill rather than calling for nerfs.

Fair as in no matter how unskilled/weak 25 players are, it should still be viable for them to take down 1 or 2 players. Players shouldn't be able to walk away unscathed because they can exploit ridiculous healing, l.o.s, and combos of sets and skills that make them invincible to counters. Knowledge and skill can't make up for having no viable options to counter these players. The fact that builds like this can even exist demonstrates the great imbalances that exist in this game. It's a problem when even skilled players can't kill eachother, let alone any new players who have the advantage of numbers.

Agreed. Is it fair when it's 25vs2? Absolutely not, but in no way shape or form should 2 players be able to withstand 25 enemy players and not even come close to dying. This is just another problem within PvP that should be addressed

MEBengalsFan2001 · April 2022

Exeter411 wrote: »

Was this in GH on PC NA? I've seen a couple of EP players there that fit that description. I've learned when they turn up to just ride away, and hope they don't chase because they can run down my maxed out horse at full gallop. I only saw them taken down once when a certain DC guild ball group showed up and killed them.

It is my understanding that this latest update has additional issues that players are exploiting on all platforms. It makes it so you can't kill them and they can easily kill you because they are simply cheating. It has nothing to do with the slightly stronger heals, they are indeed cheating.

gariondavey · April 2022

xFocused wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

BlossomDead wrote: »

Happens on EU too, rest assured. PvP in my opinion needs to be a little more standardized and streamlined than overall content to allow for fairer encounters, easier balance/patch management and lower entry skill level (which could help revitalize the community a little). The gap is enormous and it's not entirely skill based, some of the antics pulled in PvP are simply unaddressed or unreported exploits.

And add-on disablement in all PvP zones. No extra info or unpublished devilish third party tools allowed other than what we all see on the vanilla screen provided by default.

What do you mean by "fairer encounters"?
Looks pretty unfair to me ganging up 25v2.

If you struggle to 25v2 maybe those 25 should try and improve their build knowledge, game knowledge & skill rather than calling for nerfs.

Fair as in no matter how unskilled/weak 25 players are, it should still be viable for them to take down 1 or 2 players. Players shouldn't be able to walk away unscathed because they can exploit ridiculous healing, l.o.s, and combos of sets and skills that make them invincible to counters. Knowledge and skill can't make up for having no viable options to counter these players. The fact that builds like this can even exist demonstrates the great imbalances that exist in this game. It's a problem when even skilled players can't kill eachother, let alone any new players who have the advantage of numbers.

Agreed. Is it fair when it's 25vs2? Absolutely not, but in no way shape or form should 2 players be able to withstand 25 enemy players and not even come close to dying. This is just another problem within PvP that should be addressed

Are you serious? Buildcraft in this game is complex. Skill in this game can have absolutely massive differentials. Combine the 2, with coordination and good use of terrain, and less skilled, less geared opponents don't count for squat.
Imagine 2 black belts armed with sticks fighting against a bunch of random people wearing weighted shoes.

BlossomDead · April 2022

gariondavey wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

BlossomDead wrote: »

Happens on EU too, rest assured. PvP in my opinion needs to be a little more standardized and streamlined than overall content to allow for fairer encounters, easier balance/patch management and lower entry skill level (which could help revitalize the community a little). The gap is enormous and it's not entirely skill based, some of the antics pulled in PvP are simply unaddressed or unreported exploits.

And add-on disablement in all PvP zones. No extra info or unpublished devilish third party tools allowed other than what we all see on the vanilla screen provided by default.

What do you mean by "fairer encounters"?
Looks pretty unfair to me ganging up 25v2.

If you struggle to 25v2 maybe those 25 should try and improve their build knowledge, game knowledge & skill rather than calling for nerfs.

Fair as in no matter how unskilled/weak 25 players are, it should still be viable for them to take down 1 or 2 players. Players shouldn't be able to walk away unscathed because they can exploit ridiculous healing, l.o.s, and combos of sets and skills that make them invincible to counters. Knowledge and skill can't make up for having no viable options to counter these players. The fact that builds like this can even exist demonstrates the great imbalances that exist in this game. It's a problem when even skilled players can't kill eachother, let alone any new players who have the advantage of numbers.

Agreed. Is it fair when it's 25vs2? Absolutely not, but in no way shape or form should 2 players be able to withstand 25 enemy players and not even come close to dying. This is just another problem within PvP that should be addressed

Are you serious? Buildcraft in this game is complex. Skill in this game can have absolutely massive differentials. Combine the 2, with coordination and good use of terrain, and less skilled, less geared opponents don't count for squat.
Imagine 2 black belts armed with sticks fighting against a bunch of random people wearing weighted shoes.

The two would lose indeed.

Dem_kitkats1 · April 2022

gariondavey wrote: »

Are you serious? Buildcraft in this game is complex. Skill in this game can have absolutely massive differentials. Combine the 2, with coordination and good use of terrain, and less skilled, less geared opponents don't count for squat.
Imagine 2 black belts armed with sticks fighting against a bunch of random people wearing weighted shoes.

I mean...the black belts can't even kill eachother, perhaps there's something off about those sticks...
I'm sorry but 2 black belts should still struggle against a mixed group of blues, browns, and reds for they may not have perfected their knowledge and skill, but they still know what they're doing. 1 weapon shouldn't simply make a black belt invincible to them; especially when the group severely outnumbers that black belt. Not everyone, except for 5% - 10%, in this game is a white belt that has no concept of build, skill, or combat knowledge. But if you're saying that 1 weapon seemingly creates that much of a divide between players' "skill", then that weapon is op IMO.

VarisVaris · April 2022

I'm baffled that one would actually expose himself by admitting to being incapable of zerging 2 players with 24 others.

maxjapank · April 2022

VarisVaris wrote: »

I'm baffled that one would actually expose himself by admitting to being incapable of zerging 2 players with 24 others.

I baffled that you're baffled.

Cuddlypuff · April 2022

The game allows you to have very high dmg (especially burst) while having high mitigation and healing if you choose to build that way. Add on top of that the ridiculously OP buff sets available now and you get the situation described. Blame poor game design, not the players. There's also nothing stopping you running similar builds, as long as you have enough PVP experience to make the most of them. It's also perfectly OK to have a zergsweeping/bombing build that can't deal with good players, just avoid the sweaties and go hunt down the zerg.

gariondavey · April 2022

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Are you serious? Buildcraft in this game is complex. Skill in this game can have absolutely massive differentials. Combine the 2, with coordination and good use of terrain, and less skilled, less geared opponents don't count for squat.
Imagine 2 black belts armed with sticks fighting against a bunch of random people wearing weighted shoes.

I mean...the black belts can't even kill eachother, perhaps there's something off about those sticks...
I'm sorry but 2 black belts should still struggle against a mixed group of blues, browns, and reds for they may not have perfected their knowledge and skill, but they still know what they're doing. 1 weapon shouldn't simply make a black belt invincible to them; especially when the group severely outnumbers that black belt. Not everyone, except for %5 - %10, in this game is a white belt that has no concept of build, skill, or combat knowledge. But if you're saying that 1 weapon seemingly creates that much of a divide between players' "skill", then that weapon is op IMO.

Perhaps the entire analogy went over your head?
2 black belts aka very experienced players
Armed with sticks aka finely tuned builds
Against random people in weighted shoes aka bad players with unoptimized builds that are making their poor performance even worse

PvP_Exploiter · April 2022

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

BlossomDead wrote: »

Happens on EU too, rest assured. PvP in my opinion needs to be a little more standardized and streamlined than overall content to allow for fairer encounters, easier balance/patch management and lower entry skill level (which could help revitalize the community a little). The gap is enormous and it's not entirely skill based, some of the antics pulled in PvP are simply unaddressed or unreported exploits.

And add-on disablement in all PvP zones. No extra info or unpublished devilish third party tools allowed other than what we all see on the vanilla screen provided by default.

What do you mean by "fairer encounters"?
Looks pretty unfair to me ganging up 25v2.

If you struggle to 25v2 maybe those 25 should try and improve their build knowledge, game knowledge & skill rather than calling for nerfs.

Fair as in no matter how unskilled/weak 25 players are, it should still be viable for them to take down 1 or 2 players. Players shouldn't be able to walk away unscathed because they can exploit ridiculous healing, l.o.s, and combos of sets and skills that make them invincible to counters. Knowledge and skill can't make up for having no viable options to counter these players. The fact that builds like this can even exist demonstrates the great imbalances that exist in this game. It's a problem when even skilled players can't kill eachother, let alone any new players who have the advantage of numbers.

How is that fair?
Despite them being better players, better builds & co-ordianted, a light-attack only Andy's should beat them!

I wonder how many times the group of 25 used Negate and stunned them inside it?
Probably zero, but they will cry there's no counter play.

How many did the 2 kill? Were they just tanks, or were you actually getting beat?

Either way no one could withstand 2v25 if the 25 and good players, no one.

Rowjoh · April 2022

The point here is that it's not right that 2 players or an individual can intentionally take on a very large number of opponents and out sustain, out heal, out run, yet still kill at will.

Of course there is an element of skill to it, and kudos to players who have figured out the right gear/rotation etc to take advantage, and I can see that it's probably a lot of fun. The problem isnt the players, its the totally skewed balance that facilitates it.

Just to be clear:

The 25+ players who couldn't lay a glove on 2 enemy players were a mix of skill levels and abilities.

There were quite a few Negates, Time Stops, and a whole host of other stuns and snares going off - I'm an experienced Stamina NB and fired everything at them, including a couple of juicy Dawnbreakers, in combination with everyone else without much effect at all, then narrowly avoided being burst down myself.

They were able to double back and kill a player or two at will - they were not those ridiculous tanks who just stand there for 10 mins before eventually dying, which is another serious balance flaw by the way !

It's pretty obvious that this really isn't the PVP experience ZoS intended.