STEVIL wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Zamuro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, just want to let you know that we're exploring some solutions for the current situation with proc sets. When we have the details nailed down, we'll be sure to share them with you.

yea, nerf them to the ground or just delete them.... they should be a little bonuses to ur hero, not dealing more dmg than u... come on, my selene monster set deals 15k dmg and i cant hit with my hero for more than 8k... just without words... this game cant be played without ugly monster set

Selene procs 15% for 12k base at gold upped by crits and cp. Presumably you have adders to get thst consistently to 15k.

Somehow that same character only gets 8k hits? Wow. Thats like 6.5k before the same adders?

Unless you are running a defensive build and intentionally relying on selenes for dmg, those numbers seem inconsistent.

But to be clear... if you only make one attack per second (no dot, no weave, just one single 8k attack per second) you will score 32k in 4s vs selenes 15k.

That assumes the 15% procs always. If you assume most often it takes 3 attack to proc selenes (3 chances is likely to proc about 41%).

If you assume 4s cooldpwn andbproc on third attack - numbers become 48k you and 15k selenes.

Even if you just look at burst over 3s peyou do 24k vs selenes 15k when it gets the 41% chancce in three.

Obviously if you have just one more effect going like a dot, selenes compares worse.

Thanks for writing this up
This is also the approach I would use as a prime factor to compare damage proc sets vs conventional stacking sets.

Compare the sustainable higher DPS of conventional builds with the average DPS + sudden burst of damage proc sets.

IF all the damage proc sets would be well balanced, it should deliver something like:
The bursty proc sets (A)to be the scissor in the scissor vs paper if the opponent (B) is low effective health pool / shield & high sustainable DPS.
The bursty proc set to be the scissor in the scissor vs stone if the opponent (C) is a balance of a more solid build (health /shield) & respectable sustainable DPS. (the health/shield being big enough to absorb the burst, without becoming a cheesy wet noodle build).
For example in simplified made up numbers:
A: 8k average DPS with a 12k burst and a health of 27k.
B: 12k average DPS and a Health of 24.
C: 10k average DPS and a Health of 30k.
Something like this could work in PVP. The burst is compensated/balanced with the lower average DPS.
And yes I know there are group effects etc. The example is simplified.

Problem .....
Nobody would use the damage proc sets in PVE !!!
PVE is based on average DPS.... the highest average DPS possible.
The burst has no value and an average DPS of 80% of the conventional build is making such damage proc sets useless

=> PVE forces damage proc sets to have an average DPS that is very close comparable with conventional stacking sets.
The addition of them being usefull when you select the proper set combination for a certain boss fight, giving a small but nice minmax boost to the time to burn down.
(Besides ofc the cool effect when playing easy-going fun)
and now they will "always" be OP in PVP, where the sudden burst is "on top" and very important.
If not to cause sudden death, then at least to get the full initiative, to get the opponent in the defense.

That's the dilemma I saw when pondering the last couple of weeks on the damage proc sets, reading so many posts about it.
And I did not see a both elegant as solid solution for it either.
But I really do like the cool proc sets/animations we have

anyway...
My 2 cents to the math

First, i tend to agree.

Second, one of the issues i have with the ongoing and current zos design is for pve they tend to provide you with swiss army knives to construct characters but tend to make only the bottle opener (dps avg) all that you need in the vast vast majority of cases where damage is needed. I really wish they would have more diversity in challenges or at least mosre diversity in "damage" to an extent:
some where melee is really much harder to win with so melee procs like viper are no go
Some where you really really need strong AOE so proc sets like viper fail to succeed as much as the broader "up damage and spam large area aoe" or proc sets with big and potent aoes that dont measure up one-on-one but really do well in these types of challenges.
Some where the "vulnerability of the proc sets (usually lack of defense) leaves aggressive builds vulnerable to one shots esp at melee distance.
Some where the enemies use "steal and use resistance" type effects so hvy armor hurts you as a group.
etc etc etc...

Third, i for one am perfectly fine with proc sets being lower avg dps and that "resulting" in rather low wearing of those sets in the higher dps required PVE. Again, i think an error in planning (and in design if designed for) is a "one tool for every job" mentality. Rock-paper-scissors is a needed thing for any competitive construction" system. Right now, viper is like 7400 burst for 4s... thats not great dps boost in pve. Might terror likely does you better flat out and works even on defense but its burst is less.. If you run the heavy crit bonus - crit dmg likely does you better. Penetration against end game toughies - yep - and it also allows you to use a bit of hvy without losing pen that much.

I would be fine with seeing some proc sets be bursty, some dps-avg-sustainy, some healthy (baharas curse and trinimc are good examples of mixed) etc and let the users pick the ones they need for a given task.

right now it seems the burst levels can be brought high enough to make the old meta of max damage with "all medium" or "all light" or the 5-1-1 versions of those to become risky and vulnerable to bursty. Given those builds have likely a significant edge in AVG DPS and so if they survive the burst things can shift in their favor, i personally dont see that as a problem.

But in like 6-9 months we have gone from:
Damage meta light/med only or 5-1-1 and no hvy
to
Still OK for the lt/med but also hvy-tanky-dps now is Ok too
to
hvy-tanky-dps is ok and bursty-proc can sometimes kill lt/med DPS-avg 5-1-1 before the old can overwhelm.

I get why the " i want to wear 7 medium" crowd is upset, their old meta answer is no longer necessarily top dog.

But it also seems they are upset at different people winning.

Goes back to:
How i used to kill things = (insert synonym for good)
How new guys are killing me = (insert synonym for evil)

And typically ZOS does respond to those... pendulum swings back and forth to and fro.

Which is fine.

But i do agree that the "best" solution is to have a more PVP-centric solution.

i think battle spirit adding a global proc cooldown that limits the number of procs in any given time frame or make all proc cooldowns universal so that viper's 4s cooldown would also stop velidreth or tremorscale. This would curb the "multiple procs at once" issue.

But of course, it should apply to ALL procs - damage, healing, resistance etc.

I mean, again, i come back to the real problem being "proc sets under discussion show their damage as separate on the recap.

Consider: NMG and its 5s 2500 of resistance to the target has been "top dog should wear" blessed by the DPS singers forever at the top end, especially in solo or even group play.

Hit the boss with it and its what on any crit for 6s.

Now figure for a 4 man group assaulting a big boss for 12s period. That loss of mitigation affects and boosts every attack of physical nature from every source. thats one high crit character's 5pc bonus now affecting every physical damage attack whether ranged or not. Could even be inflicted at range.

What are the odds that this four man group manages to score as much damage from this mitigation crap over 12s than the 22k three viper procs would do?

The answer is "it varies" to be sure... but i dont recall seeing folks lining up to yell about NMG... which shows no damage on the recap - but in fact its 5pc bonus likely is responsible for more damage quite a bit of the time than a single viper burping three times would.

For every ~2% of damage the reduced mitigation lets thru, over 12s, they get about 25% increase in their DPS as a group. So if their group can put out just 90k dps between them (30k+30k+15k+15k - easy) NMG will start to beat viper.

But, nobody yelled... everybody thought it was good planning and skill for a group to have one guy's one proc add that damage to all their attacks with the mitigation reduction.

But if its listed as a separate damage item... thats not skill thats proc and proc be bad obvious know we all must not challenge the evilness of the proc.

.

1. If that 120 would be much higher, it would make the barrier to entry for new players, missing that insight and armory, too big.
2. The performance increases of group synergy buffs should imo be substantial bigger than the individual performance increase (current group boost between 50-100%)
3. Changing your CP distribution before a certain boss fight, the optimal synergy with boss mechanics, set choice, playstyle and CP's is also already good for roughly 10-20%.
4. If that 80 would be much lower, it would take away the fun of toying around with such a niche set during questing and grinding, because it would become unpractical.

Ling wrote: »

its just annyoing that a non skilled player can easy auto kill a skilled player, just because he uses a specific set combination ...