Tanking is not fun, let us do more than taunt.

Vuchew · May 2014

And maybe you can't do a lot of DMG while tanking, but you can for sure allow the others to do MORE DMG while you are tanking.
A Templar tank can drop a Backlash on the boss - making him take more DMG from all other team members. Or put Restoring Aura - enabling the other team members to do more DMG trough better stamina (and self by the way).
He can also heal if he wants....

What is the cry about?

ChampionSheWolf · May 2014

Vuchew wrote: »

And maybe you can't do a lot of DMG while tanking, but you can for sure allow the others to do MORE DMG while you are tanking.
A Templar tank can drop a Backlash on the boss - making him take more DMG from all other team members. Or put Restoring Aura - enabling the other team members to do more DMG trough better stamina (and self by the way).
He can also heal if he wants....

What is the cry about?

Sounds like they are dragonkight tanks (which makes that sadder since dragonknights have methods to regain stamina) since he's complaining about stamina... oddly, in a tanking situation. I decided to reroll my tank as a nightblade, way more fun and exciting, more tools to use. Most Dragoknight tank videos I've watched typically rely so much on their armor abilities that they neglect anything else. It's kind of.... I guess sad when you look at it. They neglect CC, or anything else designed for restoring and their sword and board line is often only focused on the taunt ability, nothing else.

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

lajnus86b16_ESO wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

IMO the Tank role in VR needs quite a bit of working. the current combat mechanics for trash is messy. social ranges are large and frequently you will get multiple rooms of Trash from one pull whether you taunt, body pull, range pull. there is no rhyme or reason and no skill or knowledge involved there. That mechanic would be fine if there were actual CC abilities everything is short lived broken by damage easily and high cost. So a lot of these trash pulls in veteran dungeons becomes clump them up and AOE them down. tanks need not even play the role here pull out your destro staff and burn them down that much faster.

Boss mechanics are quite a bit better the Tank has clear defined role but the unfortunate part is at the end of the day you don't even need a tank for them. but you do need DPS and heals a lot of the fights are positional and about moving the boss , or killing adds, swapping DPS or the like the only thing SNS brings to the table is blocking and mitigating damage. But again a decent healer will negate the need for that. Add the fact that all the bosses are immune to every damn thing a tank brings to the table other then taunt. Some of the bosses are immune to that too.

The tank role needs serious reworking in ESO as well as CC its a after though here with very little definition. its not a whine about agro management i completely understand the mechanics and the action combat. We are rolling through the VR dungeons with little issue though some bosses still have fun challenging mechanics. On the whole the tank job is quite boring and muddy add in the fact that for certain classes Like DK. if your going for a heavy armor wearing DK you will do more damage standing there holding the right mouse button and shield smashing the mob. many of the Melee skill lines are just bad. two hander is slow and cannot produce good dps with fights that require a lot of movement.Dual wield has a bit better DPS but its lacking at its back end.

But all that said i really Enjoy ESO its got a crap load of high high quality content. Graphics are beyond good. progression is very different with lots of options.They need to really tweak their mechanics and concepts here i would hate to see it go the route of GW2 that game absloutley sucked for group mechanics and MMO combat.Bringing some skill to the tank role and abilities to control a 15 mob fight would be useful. Either that or some abilities to actually pull with out massive social issues. 6 to 10 mobs on the screen is hectic 15 is just eye strain , add in zero control. the fact all your gap closer's cannot break through the field depth due to the targeting picking the closest mob. It's all no beuno. Currently tanks will be very bored and frustrated. add in the later game when people are geared they wont even use them.

Couldnt phrased it much better myself, dont you get frustrated aswell about the stamina? that there is no point for us to use the SNS abilities becuse they cost to much and deal so little damage and the debuff/buff they offer is nothing, wich have been the case for tank forever before, either low dmg debuff, and the abilities have X percentage threat increase for making up for low damage and debuff it gives for the raid/groups:s dps, or surviveability.

Right now SNS gives none of that, well puncture but thats the taunt anyway so.

and as i said yea you can check the cost and what the damage scales with what sort of stats and such you gonna laught pretty hard

I hope ZOS is listening to us. Its pretty bad when the best melee dps in game is in the passive and has nothing to do with actual abilities . Hold the right mouse button and do w weak little shield bash that looks like your shooing flies and produce the best sustained melee dps in game. add in the fact all of our CC is massive cost in magica for a DK and agro management does not exist on trash pulls . tanking consits of puncture or inner fire the boss hold up your shield and walk backwards in half of the boss encounters. granted some are fun and challenging but none of them have any thing to do with tanking any role can kite. hopefuly its one of the first things they adjust in the future when they start that phase of development. trying to figure out how the PTS that tested the end game mechanics did not pick up on this and make suggestions.

Vuchew · May 2014

So it seems that tanking is not fun for the DK only!
But if you are "the best melee DPS in the game" - its logical that you are not the best tank ...... don't you think?

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

LOL yes but i dont think they intended Shield bashing to be the best DPS in the game . and currently no tank in the game is the best tank. Not having a tank is the best tank lol

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

cbrown15_ESO wrote: »

Vuchew wrote: »

And maybe you can't do a lot of DMG while tanking, but you can for sure allow the others to do MORE DMG while you are tanking.
A Templar tank can drop a Backlash on the boss - making him take more DMG from all other team members. Or put Restoring Aura - enabling the other team members to do more DMG trough better stamina (and self by the way).
He can also heal if he wants....

What is the cry about?

Sounds like they are dragonkight tanks (which makes that sadder since dragonknights have methods to regain stamina) since he's complaining about stamina... oddly, in a tanking situation. I decided to reroll my tank as a nightblade, way more fun and exciting, more tools to use. Most Dragoknight tank videos I've watched typically rely so much on their armor abilities that they neglect anything else. It's kind of.... I guess sad when you look at it. They neglect CC, or anything else designed for restoring and their sword and board line is often only focused on the taunt ability, nothing else.

I dont think your even understanding the thread. but thats ok. the complaint is about tanking in general and not about resources so much. Every tank needs to CC thats a given . and there are a few options . out of curiousity how is that nightblade tank holding up in VR content i had really considered it.

Leon119 · May 2014

I honestly have no idea what you guys are talking about. I did all 3 dungeons in vr zones and obviously the previous ones too as a templar tank and it so much fun. I feel i do most of the work too. Not because my group members dont do anything but because i do alot too. My magicka gets drained completely in almost every bossfight because i do damage and emergency heal (honor the dead), power of the light is always up. When i dont have to block and trust me u dont always have to depending on the boss biting jabs ftw.
On trash mobs volcanic rune makes it soooo funny especially on low ceiling areas.how is it just blocking is beyond me

flow.currypoteb17_ESO · May 2014

i use, blinding Light, for trash mobs. and i think Tanking in Eso is just Great! u just need to learn some new mechanics. like the Tauntsystem. so yeah, i think its Fun. but u need to *** in there!

demonlkojipub19_ESO · May 2014

I could many things about how I go about tanking in ESO, but it will probably be mistranslated or ignored just to keep the complaints about tanking rolling.

I'll only say that not every Skill, tanking or DPS, uses stamina, so I don't see where the stamina problem is. Good day.

Pmarsico9 · May 2014

Crippling Slash should be removed and replaced with a Conal AoE that applies the weapon damage debuff. Deep slash should be bolstered to 20-25%.

I don't like how hard it is to move a point like this back and forth but I'd still take the AoE in that case because then I can actually put the amount of points into stam that I should. Magicka regen is easier to come by than Stamina Regen and my GCD's are generally locked tab taunting anyway while trying to stay out of the bad. I'd be more inclined to put less of my magicka expenditures on my own self defensive-CD's and more inclined to trying to soak more damage from the group (which should be an option as I am a tank).

As it is now, I am blowing my entire stam pool on taunting, rolling, sprinting (in some cases on large AoE attacks that I can't easily roll out of) and blocking and then sitting there healing as I'm waiting for my Pot CD and stam to come back, which then leaves me mana starved while engaged and unable to pop, for instance, Blazing Shield, which is both offensive and Defensive once I have stam. The alternative is to go in and do pitiful damage white swinging pissed that there was yet another aggro drop and I blew all my stam blocking or rolling.

Granted I'm writing this as a Templar tank, but having something like Low Slash morphed into a AoE cone based on stam that would grab immediate hate would be massively beneficial from the standpoint that at least your most precious resource would be used to grab packs which seems more balanced anyway. Both that and Reverberating Bash would be good slots for a change into an AoE morph in some form.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO · May 2014

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magicka regen is easier to come by than Stamina Regen

base regen is the same for both. its sets that make magika faster. if your using both bars this is really a non issue.

im not a fan of the 0/49/0 build for tanks. yeah you have a boatload of hp.but tiny mag/sta pools.

a more balanced build lets you add dps in a whole lot easier.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · May 2014

Ok... Imma take back my early statement. Given all the other things you need stamina for in this game I would say that there is a stamina issue too. Sneaking, CC breaking, Dodging, sprinting (shouldn't be sprinting in combat, but it doesn't cost magica no?), and basic interrupt (bash) add onto weaponskill costs and block costs. and as @Pmarsico9‌ said, Magica regen is indeed a little easier to come by than stamina regen, thanks to there being more passives for magika regen out there. Makica Its also actually proven that you can get higher magika cost reduction that you can stamina cost reduction too. There should be an equal way to get an equal amout of stamina cost reduction to skills as you can magika, but you cant.

Stamina isn't too much of an issue if you arent tanking or you aren't in PvP, but for people using stamina skills in tanking and ESPECIALLY PvP there are clear issues, since stamina has other important uses that using stamina skills makes you open for a hurting.

There is just a lot they need to look at for balancing.

Pmarsico9 · May 2014

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magicka regen is easier to come by than Stamina Regen

base regen is the same for both. its sets that make magika faster. if your using both bars this is really a non issue.

im not a fan of the 0/49/0 build for tanks. yeah you have a boatload of hp.but tiny mag/sta pools.

a more balanced build lets you add dps in a whole lot easier.

I don't think there's a question, but at the same time, you can't stick as much as you probably should into Health if you are also trying to have something of a balanced resource pool. Tanks should have the ability to put the majority of their stat-point pool into one or the other and definitely stress health above either.

Right now that's not really the case.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO · May 2014

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magicka regen is easier to come by than Stamina Regen

base regen is the same for both. its sets that make magika faster. if your using both bars this is really a non issue.

im not a fan of the 0/49/0 build for tanks. yeah you have a boatload of hp.but tiny mag/sta pools.

a more balanced build lets you add dps in a whole lot easier.

I don't think there's a question, but at the same time, you can't stick as much as you probably should into Health if you are also trying to have something of a balanced resource pool. Tanks should have the ability to put the majority of their stat-point pool into one or the other and definitely stress health above either.

Right now that's not really the case.

more stamina = more blocking/bashing/taunting
more magika = more dps
both = less health needed.

if your building a lobsided health build 0/49/0 you have no right to complain about dps. you built for max health. and thats all you are is a hp meatsack.

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Magicka regen is easier to come by than Stamina Regen

base regen is the same for both. its sets that make magika faster. if your using both bars this is really a non issue.

im not a fan of the 0/49/0 build for tanks. yeah you have a boatload of hp.but tiny mag/sta pools.

a more balanced build lets you add dps in a whole lot easier.

I don't think there's a question, but at the same time, you can't stick as much as you probably should into Health if you are also trying to have something of a balanced resource pool. Tanks should have the ability to put the majority of their stat-point pool into one or the other and definitely stress health above either.

Right now that's not really the case.

more stamina = more blocking/bashing/taunting
more magika = more dps
both = less health needed.

if your building a lobsided health build 0/49/0 you have no right to complain about dps. you built for max health. and thats all you are is a hp meatsack.

the problem is none of them scale as well as Magica with light armor. Armor passives are a major issue . you should not beable to stack magica and reduction gear to make your self an infinite pool of magica. we cant do that with stmaina which is currently *** as melee skills are stupidly unbalanced compared to magica, and heavy Armor, well it speaks for it self soft capping in armor and health is just completely broken. a caster in light armor can have as much health and mitigation as a heavy wearing mele while having inifinte magica regen resources.

Vuchew · June 2014

After tanking in the veteran dungeons - its clear to me that all the talks about "boring tanking" are just not serious (not to say - "***"). The tank here dictates the tempo of the fight most of the times and have visibility and ability to support both healing and DPS in crucial moments of the fight. As a Templar for sure.
Stamina regen - you have potions, drinks, skills and "tactics". Don't cry if you dropped al points in to health and you are a walking stake now. Learn to play the game!

jesterstear · June 2014

I can't agree with the OP on tanking being "boring".

However there are a couple of issues that we face -

1) Weapon skills, particularly sword and board ones, scale very poorly compared to staves

2) Due to your Heavy armour, & low magicka/stamina and lack of a stave, your DPS / Heals are going to be very poor, whichever "off role" you try to take in your "spare time" whilst tanking.

I try to softcap Health before speccing into Stamina because I do make mistakes at times and it's best if they don't oneshot me. For soloing, I am forced to surf under 50% health states in order to benefit from Honour The Dead power return.

More debuffs would help I suppose.. since they would add to our utility without requiring us to build away from tank attributes (high health, armour and a shield).

However, I think there's an issue that sword and board is too weak overall, when looking at soloing experiences. Heavy armour giving maybe 30% reduction in physical damage and the shield the ability to block ranged attacks. However, my DPS is more than 30% worse, more like 300% worse, or alternatively I could be rocking a Restoration staff and have way better heals AND dps. I rolled an alt, same class, going with light armour and resto staff and am finding life much easier.

In most situations you encounter far more damage sword and board - spell casters often do a "tornado" style attack that comes towards you, it is far easier to dodge when you are further away (more time to react). Also you can kite and land so many hits on melee enemies without them being able to strike back at all.

My main has the "Vampire's Bane" ranged DoT and Snare on her solo sword and shield bar too, since it's power efficient, but I find myself having to run TOWARDS the snared enemies so I can autoattack them, whilst with the staff I can just kite and pop them.

The only reason I can solo at all is because

1) Lots of Health
2) I have regen and my enemies do not

Ralathar44 · June 2014

I found a more interesting tank myself to play. I'm a light armor tank focused on damage shields and support. Makes a pretty decent to good main tank and great support/off tank. 2h DK with Earthen Heart, Well of Blood, Circle of Protection, etc. Switches out a couple skills based on group. Also gives me more of a variety of things to actually do instead of the same ole same ole lineup.

However we will see how well he holds up in veteran content when damage spikes much higher. Damage shields after all do not benefit from mitigation.

Ralathar44 · June 2014

On a side note one of the main tanks in our guild recently rolled a healer and finds it much more enjoyable and challenging than tanking on his Templar.

Remember folks, the point of this thread is not that tanking is not effective, but that it's less interesting and that is a big reason why you see less tanks in the ques than DPS or healers. DPS and healing is an order of magnitude more fun.

Jeremy_gelber_ESO · June 2014

Ralathar44 wrote: »

On a side note one of the main tanks in our guild recently rolled a healer and finds it much more enjoyable and challenging than tanking on his Templar.

Remember folks, the point of this thread is not that tanking is not effective, but that it's less interesting and that is a big reason why you see less tanks in the ques than DPS or healers. DPS and healing is an order of magnitude more fun.

i disagree. if tanking skills and tactics were effective they would be fun. but they arent really needed. aoe spamming and taunt kiting with inner beast are both more effective tactics than any tanking method. so why bother tanking anything.

add in massive boss aoe and melee damage that you cant effectively mitigate unless your a DK with magma armor.....

Aoifesan · June 2014

lajnus86b16_ESO wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

You're taunting 90% of the time?

Um.. I could see how that's not fun.

Dude, the taunt lasts 15 seconds. It takes 0.3 seconds to activate. That's 14.7 seconds of doing other stuff every 15..

95% of my dps and what I do is not taunting personally. And I really enjoy tanking in this game.

You can dps too. It's a simple matter of counting to 12/15 in your head (or installing FTC so you can watch the 12 second countdown on the screen). (12 seconds is the debuff duration, which is worth maintaining on most enemies, if everyone's hitting it).

He is talking about he aint using his stamina for his one hand and shield abilities becuse its not worth it, for Cost/damage/debuff/duration.

Do the calculation you simply understand that a simple "bash" would do more damage and dont cost so much stamina from the one hand a shield line.

magicka is never the issue its the stamina, that is the issue the cost of one hand and shield and the effect the abilities give.

Read all the morph and what they give for a tank instead of saving your stamina.

you will quickly understand that using any ability for stamina in 1hand & shield line is just not worht it besides bash and block or the taunt.

This is the sole idea of the problem.

You are of course wrong.

The block active with the morph to heal you on reflected spells, is something that makes all those annoying harvesters, killable.

The amount of damage they do with the screaming ghost hands thing, will heal you for 800+ Hps

Muletide · June 2014

I have to disagree, I've enjoyed VR tanking A LOT as a 5pc heavy armor- 2pc light armor/sword & board/DK and find it quite a busy role the way I play it. A good tank will determine the speed in which the group is moving through the dungeon, and an important part to keeping a dungeon run fluid is balancing Magicka and Stamina usage:

I use a lot of flame damage stacking to keep aggro (Burning Talons>Engulfing Flames>Burning Embers along with a Flame Glyph, Molten Armaments, and Ardent Flame passives) Using the class magic abilities for aggro building keeps my Stam pool up for blocking, interrupting, dodging, etc.
Ransack taunt lasts 15 seconds, so spamming is not needed, just grabbing mobs when they turn aggro. It's also the cheapest Stam cost of all S&B abilities. S&B passives are what make S&B work.
I split my armor enchants 3 Magicka, 3 Stamina with Health on helmet and use Stam/Health food or Stam/Magicka food.
Green Dragon Blood and Stam Potions when the pool gets low.
Using jewelry with Stam(and Magicka) Regen to keep my pools ticking up every 2 seconds.
I use Ring of Preservation, Standard of Might, and/or Magma Shell when bosses/large groups get heavy. These not only help me, but my group as well.
I craft my own armor/sword and keep it up to date with my level. Currently using the Song of Lamae 5 piece, and Seducer 3 piece sets.
Invasion and Silver Leash are my gap closers. Invasion for rushing in and plowing down that caster mob and letting the other mobs come to me so I can group them for me previously mentioned tactic: Burning Talons>Engulfing Flames>Burning Embers. Silver Leash is great for range pulling and "Pull-toy-yanking" undead/daedric enemies around.

This is a brief summary of my current VR3 build (I didn't bother with crafting points invested):
http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#mzaXyyM0V0W0mid8umHU8fXGM8uzvO8uvZT8fXG18umHI8uEI18LxaL8Gsdx8GRFH8LxkS8Gsb48L7xcdoQr6MdoQC6MdoQF8T7XMrqAi6MrqAI6MrqAD6MrqAZ6crqLw8y7XrR3r6LR3f6MfQE16MfQE36MfQlr6MfQlu6MfQlI8E7XLzm16LzVS6LzVW6MuciH6MuciS6Muci46Muchq8l7XrzkA6rzky6MuvVB6MuvVD6MuvVJ6MuvVO8B7erzRf6Lzsa6rzsw6MGkXa6MGkXf6zGkXG8O7zzAZqS8P7sLdYf6LdYh6zLp4d6MLncp6cLncn6zLncy6zLyjz8zM7pcgcmM6cgcmm6zgcoS6cgkvQ8zf7czNbo6zDVRE8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

Ralathar44 · June 2014

Congratulations, you're DK, DK is easy mode for everything. Which is why they are soon to receive nerfs.