fighting my own preconceptions, missing an opportunity

dennissomb16_ESO · June 2014

Like many players I have come from other MMOs, played for several years, etc. One of the downsides to this is always thinking around those other MMOs. I'll give an example best I can.

previous MMOs I usually play a tank. I wear heavy armor for damage mitigation, usually have specific class abilities for tanking, generally give up dps for survivability. It is simply different in this game. Not right, not wrong, just different.

The issue is my frustration vs truly adapting and liking this games system. We of course some times simply don't like a game (I think I played shadowbane for 45 minutes and never again LOL). This thinking of mine effects many other parts of the game such as phasing

For my self I will decide if the differences in this game are enough to keep my interested or just to different to enjoy. I hope to stop getting angry at the developer simply because they made the game different from others

Blackwidow · June 2014

That's not it for me.

There are just too many bad design choices and bad GUI options or lack of options.

So many major bugs and so many things unfinished or just badly done.

I hope you can come to like the game. Seriously, nothing against you at all, but I don't think most posters here are upset because the game is different.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

Seriously, nothing against you at all, but I don't think most posters here are upset because the game is different.

I disagree, a lot of the posters complaining are complaining about it being different. A lot are complaining that the game is broken too. But a large number are complaining that it doesn't work the way it does in other games.

They mostly don't come out and say it in those words, and you have to read between the lines. But the griping about it being different it there, of course some are griping that it isn't different enough too.

Blackwidow · June 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

I disagree, a lot of the posters complaining are complaining about it being different. A lot are complaining that the game is broken too. But a large number are complaining that it doesn't work the way it does in other games.

They mostly don't come out and say it in those words, and you have to read between the lines. But the griping about it being different it there, of course some are griping that it isn't different enough too.

I see. You "read between the lines".

I actually read the actual lines they are writing.

A lot of what is wrong with this game is the systems ZOS has set up that are either broken or hardly functional. The complaint is not that it is different, it is that is just does not work.

If you want to see that as simply a complaint that it is different and not take what people say at face value, that is up to you, but you are belittling what they are trying to really say.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

I disagree, a lot of the posters complaining are complaining about it being different. A lot are complaining that the game is broken too. But a large number are complaining that it doesn't work the way it does in other games.

They mostly don't come out and say it in those words, and you have to read between the lines. But the griping about it being different it there, of course some are griping that it isn't different enough too.

I see. You "read between the lines".

I actually read the actual lines they are writing.

A lot of what is wrong with this game is the systems ZOS has set up that are either broken or hardly functional. The complaint is not that it is different, it is that is just does not work.

If you want to see that as simply a complaint that it is different and not take what people say at face value, that is up to you, but you are belittling what they are trying to really say.

I read what they say too. When it's just a complaint that something doesn't work, I read it as a complaint something doesn't work.

But when they start to say things like "Every other MMO does it this way" or "Most MMOs allow you to have multiple hotbars" know they are griping about it being different.

By the same token, when they are complaining about how something is done, I ask myself, are they complaining that the mechanic is broken, or just that it's different. I don't always assume that they are complaining that it's different, but quite often they are.

Also I don't assume that just because they are griping about it that they are wrong.

I can be quite complex in my views, and the assumption that I automatically dismiss others because of their views is misleading to say the least.

PS. I might not be putting myself across very well, I can analyse what others say fairly easily, but often struggle to find the right words or phrasing.

Blackwidow · June 2014

@AlexDougherty the only thing i was pointing out that I think you are being unfair about is you think most complaints are just about the game being different.

If it was different and worked well, I don't think you would see nearly as many complaints.

When WoW came out it did most things differently than EQ. I never saw people asking WoW to be more like EQ because WoW improved upon EQ in almost every way.

ESO's differences are not being received well because a lot of what they have done has made their MMO less than it could be, IMHO.

As an example, the guild store was not received well not only because it was different, but also because it lacked any real interface to make it function for most users. (and it was just a badly executed idea)

Nazon_Katts · June 2014

Of course people are complaining about it being different, because the difference is not comprehensible. A square wheel makes about much sense as light armor being the best choice for direct damage mitigation. But I don't think that's the biggest problem nor that most complaints are about difference.

Actually, I am certain the biggest grief is not the problems, but how they are handled.

kaosodin · June 2014

The game has a great foundation...... as long as they keep working towards fixes , ill keep playing

ErykGrimm · June 2014

I think a lot of people have inhibitions regarding wearing a dress and waving a stick to be viable.

Drasn · June 2014

kaosodin wrote: »

The game has a great foundation...... as long as they keep working towards fixes , ill keep playing

The game has a terrible foundation. They need a complete rework of stamina as a resource, 50% of the classes are laughable, 1 viable armor type, and staff or go home.

Mablung · June 2014

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Like many players I have come from other MMOs, played for several years, etc. One of the downsides to this is always thinking around those other MMOs. I'll give an example best I can.

previous MMOs I usually play a tank. I wear heavy armor for damage mitigation, usually have specific class abilities for tanking, generally give up dps for survivability. It is simply different in this game. Not right, not wrong, just different.

The issue is my frustration vs truly adapting and liking this games system. We of course some times simply don't like a game (I think I played shadowbane for 45 minutes and never again LOL). This thinking of mine effects many other parts of the game such as phasing

For my self I will decide if the differences in this game are enough to keep my interested or just to different to enjoy. I hope to stop getting angry at the developer simply because they made the game different from others

I think that there is some merit to what you are saying and because you referenced Shadowbane, leads to my point well.

My first MMO experience was in Shadowbane. I loved the game like a fat kid loves cake. The game had no defined PvE aspect to it other than mobs were there for leveling purposes so there was no need for tanking per say. It did have traditional classes that were healer, rogue, warrior and magic based. From these base classes you could build your character. I think this was what interested me about ESO. The class possibilities were identical to what Shadowbane had offered.

I am not saying that I expected gameplay to be like SB but that character creation and development to along its premise. Now take someone who played extensively in WoW. Their expectations of classes is going to be completely different and they will also be completely wrong just as I was.

Maybe, outside of imbalances, it our expectations of what we were going to play that has caused some of the issues in this game as well. We are still trying to play like a MMO we have played in the past. Maybe there is something new here that we have yet to discover. Maybe Elder Staves Online is not such a bad thing and we just need to find the melee part as well.

someuser · June 2014

Maybe it -IS- important to note that much of these complaints are post-lvl-50.

Yes, they need to balance things, fix bugs, work on various game mechanics... but pre-50 you can pretty much play the game the way you want AS LONG as you remember to dodge/roll/interrupt.

The only things that I read on these forums that are actually concerning are how unbalanced things get after lvl 50 when everyone is either a dk or sorc and everyone wears light armor and wields a staff.

indytims_ESO · June 2014

There have been countless, "It's different from MMO XXXXXX" complaints over the past two months. "I can't have more bank spaces like XXXXX", or "My inventory isn't as manageable as game YYYY", and "This game levels slower than game ZZZZZZ". And so on. There are tons of people who gripe because it's not the 'same' as another game they've played previously and loved.

But there are also a bazillion people having issues with bugs, performance, and of course the obvious imbalances.

There's enough of a good game there to justify my continued sub, with the hope that the game will get better. So far, my wife and I enjoy it 90% of the time while dealing with 10% frustration. If/when that hits 50/50, we'll move on.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

@AlexDougherty the only thing i was pointing out that I think you are being unfair about is you think most complaints are just about the game being different.

If it was different and worked well, I don't think you would see nearly as many complaints.

When WoW came out it did most things differently than EQ. I never saw people asking WoW to be more like EQ because WoW improved upon EQ in almost every way.

ESO's differences are not being received well because a lot of what they have done has made their MMO less than it could be, IMHO.

As an example, the guild store was not received well not only because it was different, but also because it lacked any real interface to make it function for most users. (and it was just a badly executed idea)

So, are you admitting that many customers complain because the game is different, and uses different mechanics, than what you find in other games?

This is why I personally take many of the posts on this forum with a grain of salt, and to be honest, yours are some of those. You say 'they did it wrong'. I say 'they did it differently'.

Guild stores are not WRONG, in my opinion. It's a change of mentality, a step away from auction house supported gear grinds. This is not what is common in most MMO's to date. You gotta go back pretty far to get localized markets.

So when a player goes on and on in post after post about how ESO has done it wrong and failed, citing their push against tab targeting, or how they chose not to go with timer-based abilities, or how they picked a 6-slot quickbar instead of a full 12-slot bar, or how they chose to have quests as the primary form of progressions ...

I love it. I love the difference.

Because in my mind, if I wanted to play another MMO just like all the other MMO's on the market (and if it's not DIFFERENT, then it's generally the SAME), I would play one of the many MMO's just like all the other MMO's on the market.

I could care less if Wildstar is more popular. I don't want ESO to be Wildstar. I don't care if it shares any elements at all with what will end up making Wildstar a success. Because I realize there are many gamers out there, just like me, who couldn't stand playing World of Warcraft more than a few months. Who literally hated the homogenized nature of what they built.

So in my mind, your approach to take away the differences, and my approach of enjoying the differences, are at odds. I'm loving the game, and apparently, you *would* like the game if it was something else.

And I sincerely hope you don't win, because if you do, I'll be waiting another 10 years for some other company to get the nerve to do it WRONG.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

I do agree that there is a definite issue with stamina versus magicka balance. Melee versus magick. Medium/Heavy armor versus Light armor.

I think I would point out that these aren't really design decisions like choosing to keep player markets localized or forgoing a traditional tab-target system. These, in my opinion, are balance issues that can and will be worked out in time.

Some players point these out. The prevalence of staff users, of light armor builds. I sincerely feel that there's nothing wrong with asking for something to be done about it.

Other posters focus on the real design decision differences. Add-on handling, timers, limited action bars, open classes, lack of armor restrictions, the focus on quest-driven experience gain, etc, etc. I don't really believe these players are wrong, necessarily, but I feel they would be better suited adapting or moving on than asking for complete overhauls.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

@AlexDougherty the only thing i was pointing out that I think you are being unfair about is you think most complaints are just about the game being different.

If it was different and worked well, I don't think you would see nearly as many complaints.

When WoW came out it did most things differently than EQ. I never saw people asking WoW to be more like EQ because WoW improved upon EQ in almost every way.

ESO's differences are not being received well because a lot of what they have done has made their MMO less than it could be, IMHO.

As an example, the guild store was not received well not only because it was different, but also because it lacked any real interface to make it function for most users. (and it was just a badly executed idea)

Which is why I said that just because they are griping about being different doesn't make them wrong.

The thing is that the only other MMO I've played is Swtor, and there people were constantly griping that it wasn't WoW or SWG. But Swtor worked, in fact I loved it. And I'm seeing the same patterns here.

Don't get me wrong the game is buggy as hell, and some of the design decisions were asinine (potions and food on a wheel behind the Q button for example). But I just wish people were judging them on their own merits (or lack thereof) not against another game.

But @Blackwidow I take your point too.

Blackwidow · June 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

The thing is that the only other MMO I've played is Swtor, and there people were constantly griping that it wasn't WoW or SWG. But Swtor worked, in fact I loved it. And I'm seeing the same patterns here.

I loved it too. However, their point about it being not enough like Wow is a symptom of them not liking whatever it was they did not like. If that makes any sense.

You pretty much have to compare MMOs to each other. However, I think the complaint is not the difference, but the issue that makes them bring up the comparison in the first place.

Let me make a stupid example.

If I like apples and I then tried an orange, you might see two different reactions from me. On the one hand if I like the orange, I might say this is pretty good. However if I did not like the orange I bring up the fact that I liked the apples more and say why.

So, if people like a system, they tend to not compare it as much, because they just like it. If they don't like it, the easiest way to describe what they like it to tell you a game that did it well.

drackonir · June 2014

I like the game design, I like the GUI, I like the concept and what we can do in game, I don't mind some content being hard but what I cannot stand is the fact that despite earlier promises I cannot play the style I want. To stay competitive with other players I have to play only certain type of builds/classes. And in my eyes this is the main issue that will cause ESO become same commercial success as Warhammer was, sadly

Nickdorlandb16_ESO · June 2014

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Of course people are complaining about it being different, because the difference is not comprehensible. A square wheel makes about much sense as light armor being the best choice for direct damage mitigation. But I don't think that's the biggest problem nor that most complaints are about difference.

Actually, I am certain the biggest grief is not the problems, but how they are handled.

And if its the same as every MMO, they will call it a WoW clone..

Falmer · June 2014

someuser wrote: »

Maybe it -IS- important to note that much of these complaints are post-lvl-50.

Yes, they need to balance things, fix bugs, work on various game mechanics... but pre-50 you can pretty much play the game the way you want AS LONG as you remember to dodge/roll/interrupt.

The only things that I read on these forums that are actually concerning are how unbalanced things get after lvl 50 when everyone is either a dk or sorc and everyone wears light armor and wields a staff.

I am going to go with this. I don't play post lvl 50 veteran levels as I don't actually see the point to them. I certainly don't want to play the same class and same character through every alliance. No desire to do that whatsoever.

I also don't see most of the problems with the game that come up on these forums. I had no problem killing Molag with a dual wielding medium armor wearing nightblade. Currently leveling up a heavy armor wearing stamina build Templar... again... seems to be going just fine so far.

I think most of the problems lie in the veteran level content difficulty as that seems to be where their system begins to break down and why I won't ever have to worry about it.

Blackwidow · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

So, are you admitting that many customers complain because the game is different, and uses different mechanics, than what you find in other games?

That is the opposite of what I said, but nice try.

You say 'they did it wrong'. I say 'they did it differently'.

That is why you post your opinion and I post mine.

Simple, yes?

Guild stores are not WRONG, in my opinion. It's a change of mentality, a step away from auction house supported gear grinds. This is not what is common in most MMO's to date. You gotta go back pretty far to get localized markets.

Of course you have the right to your opinion, just like anyone else.

I was pointing out that if people are saying they do not like the system, it is folly to say it is just because it is different.

Do you think the GUI of the guild store is done well? Do you think they could have found a better balance going from a million people to sell to, to 2500 max? Maybe there could have been some middle ground, no?

I love it. I love the difference.

I love the change as well. I just wish they did it better. I'm not against change. I'm against bad systems.

Because in my mind, if I wanted to play another MMO just like all the other MMO's on the market (and if it's not DIFFERENT, then it's generally the SAME), I would play one of the many MMO's just like all the other MMO's on the market.

I agree.

However different does not always mean better. That is my point.

So in my mind, your approach to take away the differences, and my approach of enjoying the differences, are at odds. I'm loving the game, and apparently, you *would* like the game if it was something else.

No offense,but you did not read my posts correctly, at all.

I am not against change. I don't think people are against change, as long as it is in the right direction, from their point of view.

And I sincerely hope you don't win, because if you do, I'll be waiting another 10 years for some other company to get the nerve to do it WRONG.

Before you hope I fail, you might want to know what i am actually fighting for.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

The thing is that the only other MMO I've played is Swtor, and there people were constantly griping that it wasn't WoW or SWG. But Swtor worked, in fact I loved it. And I'm seeing the same patterns here.

I loved it too. However, their point about it being not enough like Wow is a symptom of them not liking whatever it was they did not like. If that makes any sense.

You pretty much have to compare MMOs to each other. However, I think the complaint is not the difference, but the issue that makes them bring up the comparison in the first place.

I get where you are coming from, and I understand why you have to compare like with like. I also get the faults of this game, I'm not defending them, not that they can be defended.

But @Blackwidow have you noticed a thread called "Just....Meh...", it's clear unequivicable proof of what I meant, the guy who wrote it actually says that all MMOs should be made like previous MMOs. And that was the kind of thing I was talking about.

He just wants a reskin of existing MMOs.

It's a matter of degrees for me, if you are using a game as an example of the kind of way something should be done, then OK. But I hate the people who say WoW did it this way, so lets copy it.

But as I say, I do understand why people do compare like with like.

Blackwidow · June 2014

@AlexDougherty yeah. I hear ya.